Never had this happen on any rifle that I reloaded for.

A new rifle. I shot about 40 rounds. When I went to resize the cases, I tried the empty cases. They slide easily into the chamber and the bolt closes easily. These were Barnes nickel platedcases

It is a custom chamber on a Granite Mountain action.

If they came out easily---they will go bak easily!

When a case is fired it expands to fill the chamber, then (don't know the right word) shrinks so that can be extracted. The milder the load the easier it will extract. The heavier the harder. Extra hard is due to the case expanding TOO much and sticking in the chamber.

Someone can probably explain this better!!!

Hip

It means you need not FL resize, yet. Neck sure, case trim if required.

I've heard that some target shooters don't even necksize but leave their COLs long and let the throat set the length. I wouldn't try that with hunting ammo, though.

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Never had this happen on any rifle that I reloaded for.

A new rifle. I shot about 40 rounds. When I went to resize the cases, I tried the empty cases. They slide easily into the chamber and the bolt closes easily. These were Barnes nickel platedcases

Both nickel plated and brass fired cases from my 7mm WSM Browning X-Bolt do exactly that same thing. They slip back into the chamber and the bolt closes just like on factory ammo.

However when I tried partial resizing them in the F/L die thinking I just need the neck sizing, they would not fit back into the chamber. I had to full length resize with a good bump on the die to get the cases to chamber as they did without any resizing. It seems the shape of the WSM cases causes this phenomenon, can't partially size in a F/L die.

Just this weekend I had a spare 7mm neck sizing die that came with a set of reloading dies for a 7mm Rem Mag, opened up to allow the fatter bodied WSM cases to be neck sized. This works perfectly so with fired cases just a neck size required, no lubing just clean the primer pockets and reload.

Thank you for the responses. This was new to me

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Never had this happen on any rifle that I reloaded for.

A new rifle. I shot about 40 rounds. When I went to resize the cases, I tried the empty cases. They slide easily into the chamber and the bolt closes easily. These were Barnes nickel platedcases

Yiu are saying that your rifles never chamber an empty case that has been fired in them??

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
Never had this happen on any rifle that I reloaded for.

A new rifle. I shot about 40 rounds. When I went to resize the cases, I tried the empty cases. They slide easily into the chamber and the bolt closes easily. These were Barnes nickel platedcases

Yiu are saying that your rifles never chamber an empty case that has been fired in them??

The same question occurred to me. I've only owned one rifle which wouldn't rechamber the cases fired in it -- but that was due to a misshapen chamber. If a fired case won't re-enter the chamber then something is desperately wrong.

Stone creek
My thoughts exactly, I have never had a firearm that wouldn't again rechamber its own spent cartridges.

It means exactly nothing specifically; many factors contribute to this; low pressure, rigid lockup, bolt face perpendicular to the bore axis, etc.
Many instances would not allow this; and in all honesty, I have never tried it on the 200 plus rifles I have owned.
And true, bench rest shooters use the same piece of brass and do not FL size, because they operate under the factors I first mentioned.
Hunters; do not try this at home; eventually you will regret it. As will Lever action shooters, one piece of soft brass, high pressure, and others.
No something does not have to be desperately wrong. Many factors in play here.

Well, if you didn’t get me thinking. So, I grabbed two other rifles and tried rechambering spent cartridges. They worked. I don’t how I got confused. I assumed that I had tried it before and they wouldn’t rechambee. I was wrong. Sorry for the trouble.

Here is another reason to ignore this phenomenon; let's assume you stick that fired brass back into the chamber and conclude; "I don't have to FL resize!"
You will not be happy in the field when none of your cartridges goes into the chambers.
Do not forget that any amount of resizing of the case BODY, makes the brass LONGER, base to shoulder.
Be careful with your findings and research.

quote:

Do not forget that any amount of resizing of the case BODY, makes the brass LONGER, base to shoulder.

Exactly! That is why the phenomenon of neck sizing with FL dies sometimes can distort a case so that it will fail to re-enter the chamber of the rifle it was fired in. If the chamber is somewhat larger than the die body and the die body squeezes the body such that the shoulder moves slightly forward then this can occur.

I own a .375 H&H which refuses to allow partially sized (with an RCBS FL die) cases to re-enter even though they re-enter freely without resizing. Using this die set with this chamber requires that I screw the die down far enough to set the shoulder back which has been pushed FORWARD by partial sizing.

SOMETIMES dies are simply not compatible with chambers. After all, they are both made to specs, and sometimes they are at opposite ends of the specs from one another and just don't fit.

On the other hand, this is the only chamber/die combination among dozens I own which exhibits this phenomenon, so it is somewhat uncommon.

Not uncommon at all; in fact, dies must be made smaller than chambers in order to work. Look at the SAAMI specs; ammo dimensions (and by logic, die dimensions) are always smaller than chamber dimensions. It can't work any other way.

Fired, unsized cases should chamber fine if fed back into the original rifle ....unless the chamber is weird or the load is TOO hot and the case head swells too much.

At 60,000 PSI they will expand to the chamber but the brass (and especially plated brass) will "spring" back a bit which make extraction easy.

Ya, they should go back in.

My bro had an '06 improved and never sized the case or bumped the shoulder. He just neck sized only and it worked perfectly for years and years. I now own the action and turned it into a 280 AI.

Zeke

I guess you have never encountered a lot of soft brass. Or a rifle with a non perpendicular bolt face.

I'm not nearly as traveled around other people's firearms as you.

Especially as of late, I only have blue-printed actions or customs and the brass will always return unless ,,,like I said, the load is too hot for the brass, rifle.

If the brass is flowing under pressure of the load, the pressure is over the top for that brass.

Hey, at least that's the way I see it but I'm sure your opinion is more generally accepted than mine.

Zeke

Many of us are not as lucky, or wealthy, to only shoot such high end custom rifles. Some of us have to shoot old clunkers.
Take out that old Win 94 and shoot it (I still do), and try to put that brass back in; only if you index it the exact same way it came out, will it even try to go back in; some of those chambers are huge, and headspace is generous.
You Americans are spoiled.

Thinking of indexing the brass, has anyone had trouble with cases in double rifles?

IIRC Burrard wrote that because doubles need to be made a bit cross-eyed to regulate, the cartridge heads may not align exactly with the standing breech. This, as I recall, meant that the outer side of the head could be stretched and the case might not go back in the rifle unless put in the same barrel, facing the same way.

I imagine incipient case separations might also begin on that side, too.

No, never. I haven't had that issue on 12 double rifles. And I have built them too; the barrels are not at an angle to the breech face.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Many of us are not as lucky, or wealthy, to only shoot such high end custom rifles. Some of us have to shoot old clunkers.
Take out that old Win 94 and shoot it (I still do), and try to put that brass back in; only if you index it the exact same way it came out, will it even try to go back in; some of those chambers are huge, and headspace is generous.
You Americans are spoiled.

Oh Sure! I forgot my old 92 and 94's. Sorry, you're correct sir. they will NOT go back in mine either. I had bolt rifles on the mind.

Yes, I'm a bit spoiled but at my age, I can spoil myself a bit plus it's my ONLY sport, period. I shoot, I hunt.

I guess I work and have a wife, adult kids and 13 grandkids that take some time too but that's very pleasant time spend..... so I guess I don't JUST shoot and hunt!

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
No, never. I haven't had that issue on 12 double rifles. And I have built them too; the barrels are not at an angle to the breech face.

Burrard was writing about shotguns mainly and I can't find the reference to cartridge cases. However, on pp31-32 (Vol. 1) of The Field Library 1985 edition, he says barrels are or should be joined with some convergence, beginning at the breech.

Another issue in regard to case head engagement with the action face or standing breech could be that it may not always be exactly 90 degrees to the flats (watertable). Though Burrard mentioned them being at right-angles, I've read elsewhere that it may be a fraction of a degree more in order to close properly. I can imagine that situation more in O/Us with bifurcated lumps.

Obviously, you have not come across that one, either.

If the spent cartridge case will easily chamber, would t it be better to not even bump the shoulder back, but just size the neck down?

I am of the opinion that slight compression when you chamber a round and just neck sizing is about as good a place to start with loading for a rifle when you are looking for accuracy. I have however learned that rifles get to express their own opinion on the subject too. Sometimes it just works better to let the rifle have it's way and I do what it wants though.

Consider that some of us do not use just one rifle; I never use the same rifle twice; so I am constantly shooting different rifles, even of the same caliber. A hunter would never risk a cartridge not chambering; so we full length resize them.
If it was universally true that all brass falls back into chambers, why do we even need full length sizing dies?
There are too many factors involved to say that and it will confuse new reloaders.
Yes, resize so there is a tiny bit of resistance, is a good technique.
I have never had a problem reloading for double rifles, or building them; but remember that those are usually low pressure cartridges anyway.
This topic has 14 different permutations to it. No one statement fits all.

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
If the spent cartridge case will easily chamber, would t it be better to not even bump the shoulder back, but just size the neck down?

That's correct!
No need to bump the shoulder if it fits back into the chamber. No reason to created excess headapase and stretch the case ahead of the web when fired.

Even when I FL size (if needed) I only bump enough for a slight "bolt press". I accomplish this by adjusting the die down incrementally until it chambers smoothly with that slight bolt press.

This keep everything aligned and saves on brass wear and tear.

Zeke

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
If the spent cartridge case will easily chamber, would t it be better to not even bump the shoulder back, but just size the neck down?

Yes it is but you need a neck sizing die to do that which does not touch the walls or shoulder of the case i.e. the die is bored to give clearance to the cartridge body and only the neck is sized.

As discussed in some posts including mine re my 7mm WSM, you cannot just neck size by partially sizing in a F/L die.

Although I could neck size for my 7mm-08, I do not as I also reload for my three hunting sons who all have 7mm-08's so I must F/L resize to ensure cartridges fit all four of our 7mm-08's.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
If the spent cartridge case will easily chamber, would t it be better to not even bump the shoulder back, but just size the neck down?

Yes it is but you need a neck sizing die to do that which does not touch the walls or shoulder of the case i.e. the die is bored to give clearance to the cartridge body and only the neck is sized.

As discussed in some posts including mine re my 7mm WSM, you cannot just neck size by partially sizing in a F/L die.

Although I could neck size for my 7mm-08, I do not as I also reload for my three hunting sons who all have 7mm-08's so I must F/L resize to ensure cartridges fit all four of our 7mm-08's.

You're 100% correct, you cannot only neck size with a FL die.

Also, if using a FL die, you don't need to FL resize by ALWAYS placing the die tight against the shell holder. You MIGHT have to to get the appropriate bump once you've squeezed the sides ...but not always. Screwing the die down as far as it will go MIGHT create more headspace than your rifle needs.

Chambers, dies, shell holders and presses are all different so a little "set it up right" for YOUR rig might be in order.

The only way to know is to run the FL die down incrementally (it will squeeze the sides and generally make your brass longer to where it won't fit until the die is screwed down the appropriate amount) until you get the correct bump and just the right bolt press.

This isn't "next level" stuff but it's not a common practice either but it works well.

I full length resize all my "hunting loads" If IM in Afganistan or Tanzania, I want my rifle to feed any ammo I have or borrow or buy..That said if Im leaving the country or a 2 drive, I run my handloads thru the gun Im taking, I also check accuracy and POI before I leave..Ive seen way too many times when a gun failed by clients and self early on and paid the piper..

Talking of rounds not chambering, cases can be perfectly sized in a F/L die, or just necked sized if appropriate, and all fit beautifully in the rifle chamber then just when the cartridges are all loaded up ready to go hunting they wont fit the chamber. BEWARE OF OVER CRIMPING.

A friend of my nephew was in on one of our tahr hunts, fly in by helicopter and stay for a week in the middles of the Alps, when he discovered on loading his 300 Win Mag that the rounds reloaded for him by a mate, would not chamber. Fortunately he some factory rounds so his trip was not ruined. I could easily see when he asked me what could be wrong, the shoulders had bulged slightly when the case mouths had been over crimped in the 165gr Hornady SST projectile cannelure.
Trap for the unwary.

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
If the spent cartridge case will easily chamber, would t it be better to not even bump the shoulder back, but just size the neck down?

That's where the idea of neck sizing comes from Doug, and yes that will work fine..... Right up until it doesnt. Depending on the number of firings the case will grow. I look for two or three ten thousandths clearance on shoulders for normal hunting rifles, big bores for dangerous game more....pure accuracy rifles less.

You may have to, depending on the brass and the pressure of the load, have to fire the brass several times until you blow the shoulder far enough forward to feel it on closing the bolt. Once I feel it....that's when I start to think about bump. And there are several ways to measure bump....stripped bolt, caliper mounted devices and such.

quote:

Originally posted by ZekeShikar:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger:
If the spent cartridge case will easily chamber, would t it be better to not even bump the shoulder back, but just size the neck down?

Yes it is but you need a neck sizing die to do that which does not touch the walls or shoulder of the case i.e. the die is bored to give clearance to the cartridge body and only the neck is sized.

As discussed in some posts including mine re my 7mm WSM, you cannot just neck size by partially sizing in a F/L die.

Although I could neck size for my 7mm-08, I do not as I also reload for my three hunting sons who all have 7mm-08's so I must F/L resize to ensure cartridges fit all four of our 7mm-08's.

You're 100% correct, you cannot only neck size with a FL die.

Also, if using a FL die, you don't need to FL resize by ALWAYS placing the die tight against the shell holder. You MIGHT have to to get the appropriate bump once you've squeezed the sides ...but not always. Screwing the die down as far as it will go MIGHT create more headspace than your rifle needs.

Chambers, dies, shell holders and presses are all different so a little "set it up right" for YOUR rig might be in order.

The only way to know is to run the FL die down incrementally (it will squeeze the sides and generally make your brass longer to where it won't fit until the die is screwed down the appropriate amount) until you get the correct bump and just the right bolt press.

This isn't "next level" stuff but it's not a common practice either but it works well.

What you are describing is partial full length resizing and it is a great way to do it, I use that method for most all my hunting rifles.

Double rifle brass is normally soft and thin, its easy to over crimp them and it only takes a tad to create a problem..They are a DG rifle, run them through the chambers before you go..I witnessed such a failure some years ago when the PHs double jamed, and the client locked up, I ran up and made the shot and the buffs nose pushed up dirt and mud over the clients shoes. Talk about close, my double was loaded with a soft in one barrel and a solid in the other..I shot the buff with the soft???, the bullet cut itself in half on the teeth, one half went out the jaw and into the shoulder doing little if any damage, the other half mostly jacket detoured into the buffs brain!! lucky day and Id rather be lucky than good any day..

I dont like nickel brass for starters, but neck sizeing is your problem solver. I start in such a case as you describe by smoking the neck and sholder then resizing the neck a bit at a time until the case enters the chamber with a lightly snug closing of the bolt..at some point in the case life it will require a full length at least with brass, not too sure about those hard nickel cases. I know they are hard to resize by comparison and leave small tiny deposits of nickel in the neck, so its a good idea to outside neck ream and get a two tone case..