I've only bushing neck sized for over 20+ years and decided to go FL with custom dies. I'm having a bitch of a time getting it set up for a .002 bump. I've only shot my new rifle a few times and have limited brass from it, but plenty of brass from other rifles.

I think I'm over lubricating (never had to use it before). I have a boatload of neck sixed brass I'd like to convert and use to set up the die. Can I set up the die without the sizer to get the correct bump? Or is the sizer pull back important?

I know stupid question, but ever FL or had to use lube.

If the necks are all ready sized the fl die will resize the neck to a smaller size. If you fl size then neck size that should work.

What is a .002 bump? Set up the die without the sizer? What does that mean? Sizer pull back?
Please get a loading manual and study it a bit.

Sounds like you're making it harder than it needs to be. Twist the FL die in till it makes firm contact with the shell holder and size away. Shoot em and then neck size em for that rifle.

I'm sorry I pissed you off. Just looking for some pearls you can't get from a book from people in the know.

All I have ever done was use bushings and initially with a carbide button. The past decade or so just the bushings and no expander (after reading something from Ken Howell- IIRC he recommended just size the [outside] neck without the expander. For flat based bullets he said use a separate step to flare open just the case mouth with the expander [from out to in] in order to help seat and not shave brass).

Again, this is the first set of FL dies I have ever intentionally bought. These are custom dies (Whidden Gunworks- great people to deal with) made from fired brass for that chamber, which is also a custom not a std chamber.

The dies come with a shoulder gauge and the recs are for a .002-3 shoulder bump. They tell you screw down, then mic and adjust to get that bump.

My question arises because I had only a hand full of fired brass from that rifle. I also use a Forster so I didn't know if that made any difference in the set up i.e. are the dimensions different between screwing down to a conventional shell holder vs the Forster jaws.

Since I only had a few, I decided to over shorten (back off more) and then screw down to get the recommended set back. My thinking was to re-use til I got it right.

But.....I'd run a case and when I micd it there was no shoulder bump, screw down, no bump, no bump, then 10 thous set back, then no bump. Well, I fucked up and over bumped those few I had. I then tried using neck sized brass from another rifle and really starting getting issues - Some even lengthened. WTF. I didn't know if it was because of perhaps the dreaded bushing donut or what.

Whidden's is not open, I thought I could get some help here. I am stubborn enough to fuck up 300 pieces of brass to get it right. Fortunately I got tired.......

So again, my question- can I incrementally keep reusing the same brass to get the bump recommended without the sizer continuously working the neck? Or was my issue from too much wax? Never had to use it before.

This is how you do it.
Screw die in until contact with shell holder is made, screw in an additional 1/12 turn at a time until a case shows .002" shoulder bump, use an untouched case each time otherwise case hardening will screw up the measurement, then set the lock ring and tighten. Take another untouched piece of brass, resize it and try it in the gauge, it may need adjusting after the lock ring is set.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Forgot about this bump nonsense; just size your brass until they fit into your rifle chamber; I like a slight resistance to bolt turn down. That is the correct size for the brass regardless of what the dimensions are. I think you are making it more complicated that it needs to be by measuring each piece of brass; which is very springy and won't give you the same measurement each time anyway. You are now working the brass's body and shoulder, which you didn't do whilst just neck sizing; brass has more springbuck than you think, and it is not always uniform.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
This is how you do it.
Screw die in until contact with shell holder is made, screw in an additional 1/12 turn at a time until a case shows .002" shoulder bump, use an untouched case each time otherwise case hardening will screw up the measurement, then set the lock ring and tighten. Take another untouched piece of brass, resize it and try it in the gauge, it may need adjusting after the lock ring is set.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Thanks to all.

That was what I was concerned about- only having a few pieces of brass- why I thought about removing the sizer to take it down baby steps.

Also WAY too much wax......I guess my idea of thin is off a bit (nothings exceeds like excess). Cleaned the crap out of the die last night.

I paint the neck and shoulder black and turn in the FL sizing die until it just touches the shoulder, if that is what the OP is trying to do.
Then I check chambering. Works for .30-06, .30-30, 7mm TCU, and .223 Rem. for my target, practice, and hunting rounds. All cases are lightly rolled over my 40 years old RCBS lub pad.
I have never neck-sized and wouldn't unless I was going into high level competition.

You're right- I've been lucky.

What prompted the switch was I changed rings on my 340 Wby, which I had just used on a bear hunt in Kodiak. Typical shit weather, exposed ammo on a stock belt. Rifle took a dip in the Bay. When I got home and swapped the rings I decided to use up that ammo after a quick wipe to sight in the rifle. Surprise, surprise I got a stuck case from a dirty chamber and the neck sized ammo.

Once is all it takes.

So you can teach a stubborn old dog new tricks......only they ain't fast learners!!!

Measure accross the shoulder center line.

Each full turn of a 7/8 14 die is .071

.001 for every 5° of die index

It really is that simple.

You made an excellent choice selecting Whidden Gunworks dies. To answer your original question, the expander ball has nothing to do with bumping the shoulder. I may have missed it but is your resizing die a bushing type? Also how are you measuring your case to determine the amount of bump necessary? I recommend removing the expander ball all together. Rather, purchase an correct size expander/die.

If using a neck sizing bushing, are you familiar with how to determine the correct size bushing? Plenty of literature available to explain how to accomplish proper methods to produce accurate/safe ammunition.

Try this partner...take a empty fired case, blacken the neck with a match. Now set your die one turn off contact to the shell holder, run the case up the die and then check the mark on the blackened case that will show you how much you sized the neck and shoulder, keep screwing the die down until the case goes all the way to the shoulder or until it will fit into your chamber..A full length case die set is touching the shell holder tight enough to feel a bump when you close it, if your case doesn't fit your gun after that you need to file of the top of the shell holder a bit at a time until the case will fit your chamber. Do not file the bottom of the resizer die as shell holders are cheaper so if you go to far the shell holder can be replaced for little or nothing.

http://www.sinclairintl.com/re...-tool-prod35168.aspx

For precision reloading you'll need to accurately measure the amount of bump EACH time you go through this process. Sinclair not only have what you need but their customer service will see you get started using the correct method. Guessing and "good enough" is not an option. Good luck.

The bad thing about FL sizing is that after you get the sizing die set to exactly push the shoulder back you then pull the expander plug through it and it pulls the neck/shoulder junction forward a little bit.

For my match rifles, I buy the Redding S Type, Bushing FL dies. I measure the diameter of a case neck fired in my chamber, and buy the bushing .003" smaller in diameter. I throw away the decapping/sizing button and set the resizing die up to just touch the shoulder of a fired case and screw it in .002" past that (about 10 degrees out of the 360 degrees of a full circle). This way you get the .002" bump without screwing it up pulling the sizing button back out of the case when the neck and shoulder are unsupported coming out of the die.

I decap with a dedicated decapping die.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Forgot about this bump nonsense; just size your brass until they fit into your rifle chamber; I like a slight resistance to bolt turn down. That is the correct size for the brass regardless of what the dimensions are. I think you are making it more complicated that it needs to be by measuring each piece of brass; which is very springy and won't give you the same measurement each time anyway. You are now working the brass's body and shoulder, which you didn't do whilst just neck sizing; brass has more springbuck than you think, and it is not always uniform.

Sounds like you have been through a lot of reloading, and learnt that hard way.

A case can only go into the die as far as the shell holder will allow it.

So if your original setting is for the die to touch the shell holder, screwing the die down is not going to make the case go in any further.

We have special shell holders we have shaved off some of the surface to make it possible for the case to go in further into the die.

https://www.amazon.com/Competi...redding+shell+holder

Several places you can purchase this shell holder combo set made by Redding. Again, give Sinclair a call to help with your reloading questions.

quote:

Originally posted by noylj:
I have never neck-sized and wouldn't unless I was going into high level competition.

All I've ever done is neck-size my 460 Weatherby. I dip the neck in graphite, good to go.

I do this because I did not want to work the brass more than necessary. I have around 300 pieces of brass for it and I've found that after 4 loadings they get a bit tough to chamber and will require a trip through a FL die.

When you bump back shoulders, it is important that you first anneal all the cases to have even resistance. Then you run a case through the FL sizer until it close easily on the bolt of the rifle. It is usually 1-2 thousands of an inch that you need to set the shoulders back. You do not want to overdo this because it would lead to the case stretching too much when it is shot again and that would lead to case head separation later. Then run a 2nd and third case through the FL dies and test the resistance on the bolt of the rifle. If the bolt still close with a little resistance turn you FL die just 1/16" in and test again.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader270:
When you bump back shoulders, it is important that you first anneal all the cases to have even resistance. Then you run a case through the FL sizer until it close easily on the bolt of the rifle. It is usually 1-2 thousands of an inch that you need to set the shoulders back. You do not want to overdo this because it would lead to the case stretching too much when it is shot again and that would lead to case head separation later. Then run a 2nd and third case through the FL dies and test the resistance on the bolt of the rifle. If the bolt still close with a little resistance turn you FL die just 1/16" in and test again.

Why would you push the shoulder an additional. 0045 even though the bolt will close?

People miss the point more than they hit it...

1X fired brass....do not bump the shoulder any

2X and beyond bump it .002

This is done correctly by measuring....not by guessing using "feel"

There are several handloaders who claim to bump only a couple thousands and there are many that claim to make ammunition with no bullet runout.....funny in both respects

But without actually measuring these aspects they have NO idea if what they claim to be is actually true.....it is mearly a guess

quote:

Originally posted by noylj:
I paint the neck and shoulder black and turn in the FL sizing die until it just touches the shoulder, if that is what the OP is trying to do.
Then I check chambering. Works for .30-06, .30-30, 7mm TCU, and .223 Rem. competition.

YUP!Worked just fine rmy .270s and .257 Roberts! Only, I smoked the neck/shoulder with a candle.

dpcd and Saeed have this down correctly. If accuracy is the goal, follow this procedure . It is based on practise and the easiest way to get accuracy in the individual rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
dpcd and Saeed have this down correctly. If accuracy is the goal, follow this procedure . It is based on practise and the easiest way to get accuracy in the individual rifle.

I just read that entire article, it is wrong, as are most people who think that if the die is screwed in until it makes contact with the shell holder that it will STILL be touching it when a case is being sized.
Simply not true, as the press linkages will flex as the case resists entering the die, leaving a gap between the die bottom and shell holder.
Some press deigns don't allow cam over, with these presses, the above article MAY work, but, not always.
Now, I am not advocating that cam over is necessary in all situations, BUT, if you encounter hard chambering after FL sizing, it is because the case is NOT having the shoulder pushed back after it has LENGTHENED from being reduced in diameter. This situation requires cam over to get the case FURTHER into the die.

I have many chambers that require cam over to get easy chambering with .002"-.003" shoulder bump, and some of my match chambers require a shell holder that is shorter by .010" to get ANY shoulder movement at all.

This is just something that we encounter sometimes, it is not, by any means, the rule.

Cheers.

You can measure with a headspace gauge. Hornady Lock n Load / old Stoney Point works great.

2 thou is fine provided brass is say 3 times fired. I usually measure once fired virgin brass and set up for that bump later.

Bear in mind that as you size the case gets longer as it squeezes down so first you reading increases as you size down amd then it starts to bump the shoulder.

It is rare for the die to size so little at the base that this lengthening is not the forst thing to occur.

Whether 2 thou is enough depends on you. For hunting ammo maybe 3 thou. For DG maybe full size etc. You choose your reliability and accuracy level.

Generally I need to set yp differently for different brass (springback seems a little different) and obviously different chambers.

You can measure with the rifle but I like to measure with measuring tools. For using the rifle you need to remove the firing pin so that you close the bolt with no cocking effort. It needs to close with the slightest pressure of one finger.

I'm with measuring. You can make a tool off amything with flat egdes measuring to the midpoint of the case shoulder.

I hope that adds something.

Hard chambeing can be various things. Always try a sized case only. Some dies are too long and require taking a bit off the bottom. Redding makes shellholders of various thicknesses to allow for full contact with the shellholder but with more or less bump. The idea being added squareness with contact and a sort of "dead length" sizing process. Seemed to work with Redding dies. Unfortunately Redding is of my least favourite brands. It seemed for my other brands the bump I wanted meant the dies couldn't even contact the thickest of the Redding shellholders. You can use a shim over the case of course. Properly squared up the concept is the same. I've not missed not sizing with shellholder contact. But some argue that it is the only way to get dies square in the press. I like to float shellholder and dies.

quote:

But without actually measuring these aspects they have NO idea if what they claim to be is actually true.....it is mearly a guess

And of course this. In all respects and regarding most things related to reloading and shooting.

There is also a warning at the Whidden die website, their dies are made shorter for tightly headspace rifles. You are warned to never let the die contact the shell holder.

In another forum the OP was using Redding competition shell holders and with the longest was still bumping the shoulder back too far.

Get the Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and measure a fired case. Then set the die up for .001 to .002 shoulder bump.

416RigbyHunter,

How can you say that the article is wrong? It is titled "SIZER DIE SETUP FOR A SPECIFIC RIFLE" and, in that respect, it works very well. Maybe you should read it again and leave your prejudices behind. All rifles that are in use are not the same and the method in the article caters for those differences. Try the method and proof it on a target before you condemn it.

What happens with setting up a sizer die with a Go gauge when the rifle closes on a No Go gauge? The rifle will not shoot accurately and head separation, after a couple of reloads, is a given. Setting up a sizer die with a headspace gauge only works with factory ammunition and rifles that conform to specifications. That covers about half the rifles that are in use.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Forgot about this bump nonsense; just size your brass until they fit into your rifle chamber; I like a slight resistance to bolt turn down. That is the correct size for the brass regardless of what the dimensions are. I think you are making it more complicated that it needs to be by measuring each piece of brass; which is very springy and won't give you the same measurement each time anyway. You are now working the brass's body and shoulder, which you didn't do whilst just neck sizing; brass has more springbuck than you think, and it is not always uniform.

^^^^This is exactly correct!

Remove ejector buttons and striker and "feel" how the sized case fits your chamber as you move the sizer lower incrementally. Just a SLIGHT "feel" of resistance as the bolt closes into battery is how I like hunting rounds.

Zeke