I need some load help for a 257 Wby, in a VANGUARD rifle. I ran some test loads yesterday, and my pressure came on MUCH SOONER than I expected.

My "starting load" was 66.0 grains of RL-22 and a 115 gr Nosler BT. This load was hot in my VANGUARD rifle. It left a slight extractor mark, and the base was shiny around the rim. Expansion on the belt was .002". This is in brand new Wby brass, on it's first firing. It was full length sized, loaded and fired with Fed 215 primers, bullet seated to 3.250". These were hand thrown charges, each one measured and thrown from powder trickler to pan to case.

I've read loads on here for the same bullet and 70-72 grains of RL-22! There's no way I'll get close to that in this gun.

So this leads me to wonder....WTF?

Is there that much difference in the free bore between the Mark V guns and the Vanguard guns barrels?

I would like to hear from some folks handloading for the Vanguard 257 wby, and see if you're finding the same thing? Compared to the Mark V loads, are you loading different? Anybody shooting 72.0 gr of RL-22 and a 115 BT out of a Vanguard?

BTW- The rifle REALLY shoots the 66.5 gr RL-22 load great! 5 shots under 1" from a solid rest. That was the only other load I shot, I didn't want to go any higher, the pressure looked the same as the 66.0 gr load also with .002" expansion on the belt.

I'd post a picture of the target if I knew how...

The freebore should be identical between the two Weatherby offerings... I hear you on the 70-72 grains being a fairly normal max load... 66 grains certainly seems light for seeing pressure signs... Did you chrono the loads by chance?? I would suspect if this load is hot for your rifle the factory stuff would be as well... Have you fired any factory rounds through this rifle??

You might also ask around on http://www.weatherby.dk... It's a fairly new forum so it there aren't a TON of folks on it but they have some pretty knowledgable people there...

Ken....

I brought the chrono, but left the tripod at home...DUH! So, no chrono data. I have not fired any factory loads through the gun.

I had a similar experience with RL-25, with pressure coming "too soon", compared to loads I've seen listed here, but I figured it was just the slower powder, and switched to RL-22.

I also bought a set of check weights for my scale last night, just to do a reality check. Nope, the scale is dead on...

BTW- the link you posted didn't work.

Do you have a 257?

OK, reality is setting in...

I just got off the phone with Nosler. They gave me this load data:

115 BT, RL-22, OAL set to 3.250"

Start load = 63.0 grains for 3144 fps

MAX LOAD = 67.0 GRAINS for 3285 fps.

I feel better now...I was starting to doubt my sanity...

Slowpoke Slim ----- I shot my Accumark .257 Weatherby yesterday. My load is 68 grains of RL-22, Fed 215M primer and Norma brass and 115 grain Nosler Partition bullets. My Oehler 35P said that three shots averaged 3449 fps. This is a ragged hole load for me when I have a good day. In the past I did load 70 grains of RL-22 of a different lot. This is my experience for what it is worth. Good shooting.

phurley,

I believe you. I'm curious, what kind of expansion are you getting on the belt? Have you measured it? I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a difference between the freebore of the 2 rifles, since they're made by different companies...

It sure wants to shoot though...3 of 5 shots into one hole, and all 5 under an inch...

I'll see if I can figure out how to post a picture on here....

There are actually 3 seperate groups on this target. One to left, 5 shots 2 touching is the 66.0 gr load (I did pull one shot), the one directly under the quarter is 5 shots 3 in one hole, and the 4 shots to left are of a TSX load that was too hot, and I didn't fire the 5th shot.

Not too shabby I guess for a "poor man's Weatherby" I hope? I'll be loading the 66.0 and 66.5 gr loads again and set up the chrony next time...

So I'm looking for input on what you guys think about the pressure situation. This was brand new unfired brass. Do you think .002" belt expansion is OK? Or do you think that's too much pressure? I have heard that Norma brass is softer than Win or Rem brass, is that a factor when looking for pressure signs on Wby brass?

I know if my 338 Win Mag brass showed the same signs, it would be too hot.

I would try to post a picture of the case head, but I doubt the marks would show up well. You can see the faint marks from the ejector opening of the bolt in the case head, as well as the extractor cut out. The Fed 215 primers are not flattened and the indentation from the firing pin is not cratered, you can see the edge is still rolled with an eye loop.

Soft brass or too hot?

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
I brought the chrono, but left the tripod at home...DUH! So, no chrono data. I have not fired any factory loads through the gun.

I had a similar experience with RL-25, with pressure coming "too soon", compared to loads I've seen listed here, but I figured it was just the slower powder, and switched to RL-22.

I also bought a set of check weights for my scale last night, just to do a reality check. Nope, the scale is dead on...

BTW- the link you posted didn't work.

Do you have a 257?

Sorry for the link, here is a corrected one:

http://www.weatherby.dk

No, sorry, I don't own a 257, I belong to the bigger boomer crowd of a 338-378 Accumark....

The 257 is being rediscovered it appears and there is quite a bit of interest on the Weatherby forum....

Ken....

I have a vanguard submoa in 257 wby and I load 74.5 gr rl25 in front of a 110 accubond and fed 215 @ 3.250 get 3450fps at 15 ft and great groups. no pressure signs and shot at about 85 degree weather. Since you came to pressure soon on both 22 and 25 my guess is you have some soft norma brass made for weatherby. But..thats what I use (weatherby headstamp). Supposed to be able to run 7 rem mag or 264 win mag brass thru 257 die and load as normal and end up with perfect less expensive 257 brass with incorrect headstamp. I have a 7 mag so I don't do it. may try 264 brass though because of cost. Other things-- tight chamber--unlikely. really dirty barrel--make sure its clean. see how much free bore you have. Mine has a lot. about 1/4 inch I bet but don't quote me on that as I don't have my notes in front of me.

also.. most guys shoot 71-72 gr rl 22 in front of a 100 gr bullet but not the 115. I bet you'll find the 115 BT kills quick but bloodshoots the animal from stem to stern when a perfect broadside lung shot isn't available. With less velocity I think it is a real fine game bullet.

The 72 grains of RL22 is a hot load with a 100 grain bullet, not a 115. 66 grains sounds about right to me you are increasing bullet weight 15%. I like the 100 TSX with 72 RL22 and over 3650fps.

Slowpoke Slim,

A couple of points to consider.

I (and others) have found the Reloader powders vary and the variation seems to be greater, or more noticeable in calibes with big case capacities for the bore size and especially when heavier bullets are being used. I have been told that the Re 22, Norma MRP and the Winchester Magnum powder are all made at the same place but with different quality control and Reloader is the low quality control. When they make the powder for Norma the reject box has a lot more powder in it

With Norma belted brass (which is Wby) the solid head of the case does not go all the way up to the the top of the belt like it does with Winchester brass. Thus when measuring the belt on Norma brass you are not measuring solid head expansion.

If you can go 5 shots on a case and the primer pocket is still OK, but the primer is easy to seat as compared to a new case, then you are OK, but at the top end.

Mike

I was not experiencing any heavy bolt lift or stiff extractions. Are the light extractor marks normal on the Norma brass? It's pretty faint, and not near enough to have flowed any brass into the extractor or anything...

On new brass you can have a load that is a bit too high but extraction will seem OK.

At the lower end of hot loads some rifles will show ejector marks and another rifle may not.

In my opinion and for the brass being used there is still no better method than primer pocket tightness. A top end useable load would be one where the case could stil be used after 5 shots but the primer would be vey easy to seat.

Mike

Slowpoke Slim,

I agree with WbyPower's opinion about ejector marks and primer pockets.

I have been using a Custom 257W (7 twist barrel with no freebore) for about 1 year, but reloading mostly wildcats for about 40years.

The practice that I observe is that if ejector marks are visisble then I drop the load at least 1 grain. I also aim for 10 shots per case, but 6 shots is my line in the sand, so if the primer pockets are too loose after 5, then I drop the load at least 1 grain.

My experiments seem to confirm that Norma brass is softer than Remington. (and Winchester) I conducted an experiment and found that my Norma 257W brass was producing only 70 fps more velocity with the same bullet than my 25/06AI. (Rem brass) Then if you allow about 50 fps for the extra 2 inches of barrel length with the 257W, then the difference was only 20 fps.

I have since formed some 257W brass by necking down some Remington 300 WM brass. I found the capacity was about 2.5 grains less than the Norma brass, so it is obviously thicker, and subsequent testing has shown that although I use 1 grain less powder, I am getting anothe 80 -100 fps for my trouble

Another practice that has served me well, is to use a powder that will give a load density of at least 95%, and as close to 100% as possible at maximum pressure. I have found that it is relatively easy to find an accurate load with a powder with a 95 -100% load density.

I note that you are using a load of 66 grains of Re 22 with the 115 grain bullet, which on my calculations equates to a load density of about 84%, which means there is a lot of air space in your case.

My batch of new Norma brass takes about 78.5 grains of a short cut extruded powder such as Re25, HRetumbo, and others to fill the case to the base of the neck, and 83.5 grains with a ball powder. (ie H870)

Last weekend I worked up loads with the Nosler 100 and 115 grain bullets for the first time, as I previously had been developing loads with the 125 - 156 grain weights.

With the Nosler 115 grain BT, I worked up from 75 - 79 grains of AR2218 (H50BMG in US), and estimate that I reached maximum presure with the 78 grain load. (99% load density) The 79.0 grain load produced slightly stiffer extraction and faint ejector marks on 2 of the 3 cases.

My 76.0 to 78.0 grain loads produced groups of .375, .550, and .285 moa respectively.

Unfortunately my CED chronograph decided not to record (again), so I have no velocities to report, but hopefully that will be rectified next weekend.

I would suggest that in your further testing, if you have trouble getting the accuracy and velocity that you are hoping for with the 115 grain bullet, then switch to a slower powder than Re22. Good luck, Brian.

Went to the range again last week (Thursday),

I tried the 115 Nosler BT's again at 66.0 and 66.5 grains. This time I ran them over my chrony.

I ran the 66.0 grain loads first, 2 sets of 5 shots each.

First set:

3226 5 ft
3207 5 ft
3250 10 ft
3249 10 ft
3228 10 ft

Second set:

3258
3236
3225
3230
3247

I had set the screens 5 ft from the muzzle, and the second shot's muzzle blast blew the front screen off the frame. I initially thought I hit the the chrony, but I didn't. So shots 3-5 on this set, and all subsequent shots had the chrony 10 ft from the muzzle.


I then tried the 66.5 grain load, same bullet:

First set:

3259
3238
3240
3279
3263

I was running out of range time, so didn't fire the second set, but this was the most accurate load anyway. Results mirrored my earlier testing of this load, sub moa groups.

I then tried the Barnes 100 gr TSX load again. I had called Barnes, who listed RL-22 at start-66.5 and max-71.5, with an OAL of 3.160 (their recommendation).

First set was 67.5 gr RL-22:

3377
3362
3390

I only fired 3 of the 5 shots, as the group was quite large and unsatisfactory.

Next group was 68.5 gr of RL-22 same OAL

3468
3488
3452
3420
3455

Group was 1" with one called flyer outside at 1 1/2. (Factory trigger).

I then fired a group with 69.5 gr of RL-22

3460
3523
3497
3534
3542

The group opened up and primers showed pressure was too hot.

All testing was done at around 100 degrees temp. All 5 shots per group were fired one after another, without waiting for a cool bbl. By the 5th shot in each group, the barrel was too hot to touch. Barrel was cleaned between each test batch, and "lapped" with Butch's Bore Paste before switching to the Barnes bullets, to ensure all copper fouling was removed from the Nosler's.

All and all I think I have 2 satisfactory loads. The 115 BT @ 66.5 gr of RL-22, and the Barnes TSX @ 68.5 gr of RL-22. All of this has been with battling the factory trigger, with lots of creep and what feels like a 6 lb trigger pull (once you get through the creep).

The rifle goes to the smith next week for a trigger job, and hopefully a 2 1/2 to 3 lb crisp trigger will be the end result.

quote:

Originally posted by Slowpoke Slim:
.....By the 5th shot in each group, the barrel was too hot to touch....

I wait 2-3 minutes between each shot to let the barrel cool; during the summer I improve the cooling by blowing air in the rifling with a scuba cylinder. I bet that if you let the barrel cool reasonably between each shot, your groups will be tighter and certainly your barrel will last longer.

Wildboar,

I know. I was after real world hunting/shooting "worst case" groups from the load and rifle. Not that I ever expect to fire 5 shots in 5 min. in ANY situation... Maybe at most 2 or 3 at a running coyote? For deer, that's entirely different. But it's nice to know that the group doesn't go to hell as the barrel heats up... I've had a few that would.

I certainly don't intend to give it a steady treatment of overheating the barrel, so I DO understand your point.




Also, it's HOT here. Air temp over 100 degrees before 10 am (that's in the shade). You could wait an hour between shots and the barrel is still hot. On my first outing I tried "waiting" for the barrel to cool, and I was shooting 1 shot every 20 minutes, and yes, the barrel was still staying hot, it would heat right back up after each shot.

I don't own a scuba tank, and even if I did, I wouldn't consider bringing it to the range... I bring way too much crap with me now as it is!



If I could shoot off my back porch, and set everything up on my patio, I might look into something like that, if I was shooting a benchrest gun or long range prarrie dog gun, but not for a general purpose hunting rifle. But alas, I live in the city, and it just isn't possible...

The gun has already proven to me that it's capable of better accuracy than I will be able to use with a "field hold" in a hunting situation.