What are the maximum speed we can get with a 30-06 and 150 or 180 gr loads, if you move the bullet 2 mm out (and if you have enough throat in the chamber for it for it) and you support 65.000 PSI in the chamber.

65,000 PSI in the chamber would probably be unwise. It leaves you no margin for cartridge to cartridge variation, temperature variation, etc.

However, I do get 2,800 fps with a 180 grain bullet, and a COL slightly longer than you specify, and 56.4 KPSI. A rough estimate is 50 fps and 2,000 PSI per grain above that. With the powder I was using, you would run out of case capacity long before you got the required additional 4.3 grains of powder in the cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by 6_5X57:
What are the maximum speed we can get with a 30-06 and 150 or 180 gr loads, if you move the bullet 2 mm out (and if you have enough throat in the chamber for it for it) and you support 65.000 PSI in the chamber.

I think it would be safer just to use some of the LM ammo from Hornady, or HE from Federal.

In a 22" Remington barrel, I am barely able to crack 2700 fps with a 180 gr. bullet. Even some 60+ ksi loads are under 2700 fps. 2800 fps at 56.4 ksi sounds like either an exceptionally fast barrel or else a strain gage calibration error -- not that I want to open that can of worms.

Here's a recent test with 180 gr. bullets. Admittedly this was not the optimal powder for the cartridge, but velocities have not been much better with other powders.

I haven't tried 150's but 165's have to be seated out pretty far to touch the rifling yet they struggle to break 2800 fps. I can't see any advantage to a long throat with bullets less than 180 gr..

If I wanted a magnum, I would have gotten one. I like the '06 because it is plenty adequate for elk at sane ranges yet the kick is tolerable.

Would using Lake City National Match '06 brass allow one to load to higher pressures and thus obtain higher velocity? I ask that question because I have heard that LCNM is about the toughest there is and I have heard that it can be loaded hotter. Can anyone confirm this?


Jordan

Of course, different rifles are going to behave a little differently from each other, and I am using a 24" barrel (50-60 FPS or so, I guess).

I don't think that 56.4 KPSI is far off the mark. It is the same load that Hodgdon rates at 49,300 CUP, which converts to 56,750 PSI.

For the person that really, really needs the maximum speed, the High Energy cartridges mentioned by Ray are probably as good as you are going to do. I measure the 180's at about 58.9 KPSI, and 2900 fps...with twice the SD I've seen on other loads.

Depending on a number of factors -- your rifle, the barrel length, the particular bullet you are using, whether or not you have the optimum powder, etc. -- one can typically get 3000+ f.p.s. with 150 gr. bullets and 2800+ f.p.s. with 180 grainers in the 30-06 within safe pressure levels.

Point to ponder. If a 65,000 PSI load is considered safe and normal for a .300 Win. Mag., why should it not be OK in a MODERN action rifle chambered to the 30-06. Is a Win. M70, Rem. 700 or Ruger 77, to name a few make of weaker materials for the 30-06 and stronger materials for the .300 Win. mag.? I seriously doubt that.
Should the 30-06 be hot rodded? I dunno. Works just fine as is, although I have noticed lately that some current 30-06 ammo actually chronographed less than .308 Win. ammo from the same company. I bought both batches of the ammo at the same time from the same store, so must reasonably assume they were made at roughly the same time frame.
The .308 ammo chronied at 2640 FPS IIRC, and the 30-06 at 2610 FPS. This did not please me, so that 06 ammo is slowly being shot up as plinking stuff to get the brass. I got it cheap at a K-mart that was closing down and liquidating everything. I got 20 boxes of the 30-06 for $5.00 a box and 24 boxes of 30-30 for $4.00 a box. All Winchester brand. I also got 5 boxes of the .308 for $500 a box. (All they had left.)
You know? Even the .270 doesn't deliver advertised velocities anymore. Sure glad I reload..
Paul B.

quote:

Point to ponder. If a 65,000 PSI load is considered safe and normal for a .300 Win. Mag., why should it not be OK in a MODERN action rifle chambered to the 30-06. Is a Win. M70, Rem. 700 or Ruger 77, to name a few make of weaker materials for the 30-06 and stronger materials for the .300 Win. mag.? I seriously doubt that.
Should the 30-06 be hot rodded? I dunno. Works just fine as is, although I have noticed lately that some current

Perhaps because the magnum cases are made of thicker brass in the head area??, and it is, after all, the brass case that is the weak link in the system, NOT the rifle's action or barrel (within reason of course!!)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
If a 65,000 PSI load is considered safe and normal for a .300 Win. Mag., why should it not be OK in a MODERN action rifle chambered to the 30-06.

Based on what little I know, a decent bolt action can easily handle 60 - 70 ksi, but brass gets pretty stretchy around 75 ksi, so 65 ksi doesn't leave much room for error.

I agree that there is no logical standard for setting the maximum pressure. Personally, I think the break open single shots are risky with high pressure cartridges because they have no provision for safely venting gas in the event of a case failure, and in fact, the actions are known to pop open when a case seperates. On the other hand, a cartridge meltdown in a M700 usually only results in a bolt that is difficult to open.

As a practical matter, I want my brass to last indefinitely, I want my guns to last forever, and I want pressures to be reasonable even on an extremely hot day. When I was a young man my philosophy was to increase the powder charge until something failed, then back off a tenth, but nowdays I try to stay close to specs. Brass lasts longer and critters die just as dead.

Get a long drop tube, some RL22 or IMR7828 & you can get right @ 2800fps safely in a 22"bbl. 06. The guys that are getting more than that from a 22" tube are pushing the limits. If you need more speed, time to move to a magnum.

CERTAINLY, the '06 can be loaded to 65,000 PSI, just like any other cartridge - as long as a strong modern gun is used. Gun makers want to sell more guns, so they down load the old calibers to make the new calibers look good. It's all about marketing and staying in business.

just doing some preliminary testing w ith R 22
before doing the full test ...63 gns R22 MV 2856 180 GN NOSLER PART PSI 63700 24 INCH /06 barrel
H 4350 58 GNS MV 2805 PSI 63,000 180 GN NOSLER PART
if you want to load the 06 to its full potential just grab any of the 4350 powders and work you way up till you hit 2800-2810 fps and you will be in the 62-63000 psi bracket assuming you have got a 24 inch tube
with the slow burners it like r22 wxr norma mrp will give you a bit more velocity at much the same pressures
the federal h.e ammo on the pressure gun gave between 55-58,000 psi with a mv of 2800-2850 depending on the batch used as i tested a few diffrenr batches of ammo
regards daniel

M98, QL predicts 2880 fps at 60,000 PSI for 63 grs. of Re22 and a 180 Nosler Partition SP. Have you tried 66 to 67 grs of Re25 yet? Regards, AIU

Ackley
no i havent tried R25 as i havent got any on hand...but i think its way to slow in the 06 with the 180 gn proj i tried VV N 165 with i think it was 64 or 65 gns of powder behind the 180 partition in the 06 and it gave a uniform 2800 fps
daniel

I have loaded the 63gr of IMR7828ssc under the 180grNP in my son's 06 (22"bbl.) & it gets just over 2800fps w/ good accuracy & only slight compression. 62gr RL22 also gets me there. H4831sc would also be another good choice.

FRED
H 4831 IS NOT A GOOD CHOICE !
on the pressure gun we could not get 2800 fps with the 180 gn nosler and H 4831....when you hit 2800 fps with h 4831 you are well over 65,000 psi
daniel

El Deguello said,

quote:

Perhaps because the magnum cases are made of thicker brass in the head area??, and it is, after all, the brass case that is the weak link in the system, NOT the rifle's action or barrel (within reason of course!!)

Maybe so, but brass does begin to flow after a certain pressure level is reached, regardless of how thick the case head and walls are. Assuming brass flows at 70KPSI, you could have a half inch thick case head and quarter inch thick case walls and that brass will still flow and potentially let go.
Also, at 65KPSI, the back thrust from a Magnum case will be greater than that from the 30-06 case at equal pressures. It has to do with the area at the case head inside the cartridge case. Unfortunately, I'm no great hand at math, so someone more versed in working the numbers would have to chime in. I do understand the theory, just not how to explain it so that even I understand it.
Paul B.

M98, I'm getting FABULOUS performance with Re25 and 180 gr. NBTs in my 3006 AI (26") - 3100 fps with ~70 grs. and no pressure signs. You might like it. This load is tapped and compressed.

Finally, Varmit Al claims that brass begins to flow at ~63,000 PSI, well before ~70,000 PSI. And, M98, what do you think the Federal people are doing to get 2850 with 58,000 PSI? They could be using a tapped/compressed charge of Re25.

Question for fredj338:

My gunsmith told me to get a long drop tube for my cases and now I see that you have mentioned it as well. So what's the story behind the long drop tube; what makes them better for this or that purpose as opposed to a short drop tube? Inquiring minds want to know...

ACKLEY
federal use a powder which is not avaliable to the public and never will be ...they use 67-68 grains of a ball powder in there 06 high energy ammo behind the 180 nosler
yjay high energy powder is not compressed it is compacted so to speak
as far as brass flowing it depends on the quality of the brass...i use lapua it is streets ahead of every thing else
daniel

M98, I'll defer to your pressure readings, my results are observed from one rifle.
rrotbeer, the drop tube is to get the powder to compact into the case using gravity. The longer the tube, the quicker the powder falls & the more it will compress. There is an obvious limit to compression, so a 36" drop tube probably gets you little over a 12" one. Forster makes a funnel w/ a 6" tube on it. It works fine for up to .308.

quote:

Originally posted by 6_5X57:
What are the maximum speed we can get with a 30-06 and 150 or 180 gr loads, if you move the bullet 2 mm out (and if you have enough throat in the chamber for it for it) and you support 65.000 PSI in the chamber.

Hey Ignacio, First off, Welcome Aboard! Always nice to have another reloader join the group.

What is the particular reason that you want to know what the Max Speed is in someone elses rifle?

Do you believe that if a particular "Velocity" is mentioned as MAX, that you can just duplicate it and it will be SAFE in your rifle?

I see in some of the previous posters responses some excellent data and some stuff that is extremely misleading and full-of-beans.

Hot Core:

I only want to colect ideas how to get the maximun load in my 30-06 rifle.
The reason I want to get the maximum performance, is the type of hunting I practise frecuently in my country: The driving hunting. Our experice says , sometimes the 30-06 has not enough power, with conventional loads, to "stop the game (maily boars)" when you shoot them and the are moving and you don't reach perfectly the vitals. Normally, the most common solution is to be overgunned (that is the reason why 300 WM and 8x68 are so popular in my country, for this type of hunting). I think if you get a high yield 30-06, it will be enough to get my purpose, without the extra recoil, less weight and one round more in a conventional magazine.

Best Regards

Judging from your second post, I think a premium 180 grain bullets (like Barnes TS, Nosler Partition, and others) will do a workman like job for you, likewise with 200s.
I fail to see what a fast atepping 150 or 165 grain can do that a good 180 can't, besides the 30-06 can drive 180 grain bullets to 2700fps without excessive pressures.
I like the 30 calibre magnums, but don't see where they play a vital role until range stretches out past 250 yards, besides if a premium 180 grain 30-06 at 2700 fps can't do it, you need more than a .308 diameter bullet.
Best luck with your project.

Hey Ignacio, I believe your response to my question will help the other folks a lot in their replies. The post by Buckshot is a good one and you should get others.

I really enjoy seeing others thoughts on this type of an issue, so I'll back out for awhile.

Ignacio, there are really good powders available now for getting max performance from the '06 - why not use them. Here are some doable loads for 180 gr. NBT in a std. 30-06 with 24" barrel. Staying at 65,000 psi or less would be safe. All these would be tap-in + compression loads - but all within reason. The std '06 is underloaded and, thus, underrated. It's a great cartridge, when loaded to the same pressures as the latest-and-greatest "magnums." The manufacturers need to sell guns - new guns - to stay in business. Try some of these powders and work-up to these loads. These powders can be extremely accurate as well. Regards, AIU

Re25/120.5% case fill/66.6g/2979/65000 (great)
N560/111.5% case fill/64.6g/2967/65000
MAGPRO/114.5% case fill/67.4g/2954/65000
Re22/114.3% case fill/64.2g/2953/65000
WXR/113.0% case fill/64.5g /2952/65000
I7828SSC/111.8% case fill/63.7g/2936/65000
H4831SC/112.1% case fill/64.3g/2890/65000

If you don't want to tap and compress too much, I'd try the IMR7828ssc and VVn560. I've used Re25 - it's absolutely super in my '06AI getting 3100 fps with 180 NBT at ~65,000 psi with a 26" barrel.

More loads for the 150 gr. NBT, if you're after flat shooting.

Cartridge: .30-06 Spring.
Bullet: .308, 150, NOS BalTip 30150
O.A.L: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length: 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 115 %

N560/115.0/68.4/3198/64842 (great load)
RamHunter/106.3/64.5/3162/65000
Norma MRP/115.0/67.7/3160/60208
7828 SSC/115.0/67.3/3159/64847 (great load)
Win760/103.9/62.5/3156/65000
N550/103.9/61.8/3151/65000
XMR 4350/108.6/61.9/3149/65000
IMR 4350/108.5/61.2/3147/65000
IMR 4831/112.0/63.6/3138/65000
WXR/115.0/67.3/3136/61255 (great load)

Hey Ignacio, Looks like some good data coming in to help you.

quote:

Originally posted by 6_5X57:
... Our experice says , sometimes the 30-06 has not enough power, with conventional loads, to "stop the game (maily boars)" when you shoot them and the are moving and you don't reach perfectly the vitals.

Good description of your Hunt. I can see just what you are talking about.

In the past, I've killed a mountain of Hogs with Standard grade bullets, but was able to be completely selective about the shot placement. As I understand your situation, I would use a Premium Bullet at normal attainable 30-06 velocities. Since the "Entry" will not always be the best spot, but whatever shot is available. That is when the Premiums come into their own for deep penetration. Something like the old Nosler Partition, one of the newer Barnes TSX, Northfork or a Winchester FailSafe. All of those are noted for high weight retention and deep penetration.

quote:

...I think if you get a high yield 30-06, it will be enough to get my purpose, without the extra recoil, less weight and one round more in a conventional magazine. ...

Sounds like a fine plan. Due to the less than optimum shot Entry angles, I would probably opt for one of those Premiums in 180gr at normally attainable velocities.

But,since you want to keep the Recoil down, a 165grain Premium bullet "might" work just fine for you at norally attainable velocities. If it doesn't, then the 180gr would be my recommendation.
---

There is an interesting "quirk" about Impact Velocities and bullets. When shooting Game, the lower the Impact Velocity, the less the Bullet Tip is deformed (or expanded). This can actually result in "deeper penetration" because the smaller Tip has less "drag" as it moves forward. It is delivering less energy transfer along the way, but if it helps you reach the vitals from a bad angle, that can work to your advantage.

So, using a Heavier Bullet that will expand "some" and have enough Mass for deep penetration might provide the best balance of Kill-ability and Recoil. Fortunately, there is nothing to keep you from trying both approaches.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

You can get over 2800 FPS in the 06, but I cannot think of one good reason to do that...2700 FPS is a nice load, and that extra 100 to 150 FPS will not shoot a damn bit flatter, nor will it kill one iota better in the real world....a 150 FPS ain't nothing but proud flesh or foreskin, serves no purpose.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
M98, I'm getting FABULOUS performance with Re25 and 180 gr. NBTs in my 3006 AI (26") - 3100 fps with ~70 grs. and no pressure signs. You might like it. This load is tapped and compressed.

Finally, Varmit Al claims that brass begins to flow at ~63,000 PSI, well before ~70,000 PSI. And, M98, what do you think the Federal people are doing to get 2850 with 58,000 PSI? They could be using a tapped/compressed charge of Re25.

Ackley Improved User:

Those are impressive numbers indeed. Would you care to share your thoughts on the .30-06 Improved with a 22" barrel? Is such a short barrel non-sensical for an '06 Improved, in your opinion. Or is 22" adequate to take advantage of the increased powder capacity of the improved cartridge? The reason I ask is I just ordered a Half Moon .30 caliber barrel and am seriously considering chambering it in .30-06 Improved with a 22-23" barrel on an HVA commercial mauser small ring action. A 180 grain pill at 3000 fps from a 22" tube would really tickle me.

What say you?

Thanks,


Jordan

Jordon, I think 3000+ fps with an 06 AI and a 22" barrel is asking too much - in fact, 2900+ fps is a much more realistic absolute MAX load for a 22" barrel (see loads above). Why not go with a 26" barrel? - it doesn't add that much weight.

I've found an improvement of about 30 fps per inch of additional barrel and about ~70 fps overall improvement with the 06 AI over the standard 06. It's only a mild improvement, but still a hell-of-a-cartridge - that is, more efficient that the big-bore belted mags, which produce much more powder blast for little gain.

There's no reason not to shoot at 65,000 PSI - modern quality brass is quality brass, no matter the shape or size. Indeed, Ackley clearly showed that belted mag brass can take no more pressure than 06 brass - that is, both blowing primers at about 65,000 CUP (75,000 PSI). Infact, theoretically, 06 brass and their chambers - being of lesser diameter - should be able to take a bit more PSI than mag brass and their chambers.

I like Lapua brass and recommend it highly - although I haven't found it "really" better than Rem or Win brass. Maybe more consistent. Lapua claims their brass will not yield until 67-68,000 PSI. I'm not sure what that means, but I've found that it will show pressure signs long before a primer pocket blows. I've never had a case split, even at PSIs that had to be over 80,000 PSI.

Jordon, here is QL output for 06AI with a 22" barrel. You might try these powders. Regards, AIU

Cartridge: .30-06 Ack Imp (72 grs H20 - Lapua brass)
Bullet: .308, 180, NOS BalTip
O.A.L.: 3.360 inch or 85.34 mm
Barrel Length: 22.0 inch

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders. Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 Mpa or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 120 %. These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations. USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON!

Norma MRP/ 112.1%/ 67.7g/ 2983fps/ 65000
Re-25/ 119.1%/ 69.3g/ 2977fps/ 65000 (Possible GREAT load!!)
N560/ 110.2%/ 67.2g/ 2962fps/ 65000
MAGPRO/ 113.1%/ 70.1g/ 2950fps/ 65000
Re-22/ 112.9%/ 66.8g/ 2947fps/ 65000
WXR/ 111.7%/ 67.1g/ 2946fps/ 65000
Big Boy/ 114.0%/ 71.4g/ 2939fps/ 65000
7828 SSC/ 110.5%/ 66.4g/ 2935fps/ 65000
Retumbo/ 120.0%/ 70.6g/ 2920fps/ 60409 (Possible GREAT load!!)

I have cranked up 30/06 loads to some pretty fast numbers.. definitely making a 300 Win Mag out of it ( at least factory ammo specs)....

But as far as performance in the field... with a 150 grain or a 180 grain, your real world gains are minimal....

I do like playing with velocity up and down when handloading to see what a round will do on both spectrums...

However in the field.... the grains are possibly not worth the increase risk in the decline of safety margin...

But work up whatever you do....

cheers
seafire