I'm getting ready to dabble in reduced loads for my Contender 10' .223 Rem.. I'm planning to load 6.5gr. of HP 38 under a 50gr. Speer spitzer S.P. bullet. My question is do you need to use a filler to keep the powder from being position sensitive, or is a magnum primer enough? In fact do I even need a magnum primer and again; does it necessarily need to be a small rifle- how about a pistol primer?

Gotta love hand-tailored ammunition!

Thanks,
Ron

I wouldn't bother with a filler in a case that small, especially using a jacketed bullet. There is no need for a magnum primer, but I would not use a pistol primer. Any time you use a very light charge in a rifle case, the load is "position sensitive" in that you want the powder charge in the bottom of the case and the best way to insure that is to point the muzzle straight up in the air before you fire it to insure consistant ignition and shot to shot velocity. Using a powder with a greater loading density (fills up more of the case) minimizes this. The problem is much more pronounced with longer and fatter cases.

On a more philosophical level, If you want to create a load for let's say, a .308 that duplicates .300 mag ballistics, the answer isn't to put more powder in the case, it's to buy a .300 mag. Likewise, to reduce your .223 to .22 hornet levels, it would make more sense to get a hornet barrel and not have to take extra care and be extra aware while shooting. Not what you wanted to hear, I know, but still true nevertheless.

That said, most reduced load shooters are working with cast and not jacketed, so most of the reduced load info you will encounter may not be helpful to you. Pressure spikes also happen with reduced loads and from what I have read are more likely to occur with jacketed bullets because the friction coefficients are greater between the gilding metal jackets and barrel steel than with lubed lead alloys.

Hodgdon is the only powder company that publishes reduced load data for its powders and contacting them might get some good info for you. H335 and BL(C)-2 are often used in reduced cast loadings with good results, as are Red Dot and Blue Dot from Alliant, but I cannot advize you as to starting loads. Possibly someone over on the cb forum www.castboolits.gunloads.com has some experience where you want to go and could get you some usable data.

Seafire's Blue Dot loads have a lot of merit and the Blue Dot does not seem to be position sensitive. I'm sure he'll share if requested. Isn't nice that I volunteer youir services, John?

For what is worth a very accurate load for me is 9.0 gr Unique with 40gr Sierra Hornet bullet.

I shoot a load of 7.5gr of blue dot in my 243 and have never had a problem with it being position sensitive, so in a 223 i would not worry at all about it

As for an answer to your question, you do not need filler nor magnum primers but it is best to stay with Small rifle primers because they are harder and will not pierce like a pistol primer could.

Versifier has the best answer: Now I've got to go tell my wife I NEED another Contender barrel. The guys on Specialty Pistols forum will agree I'm sure...

I appreciate everyone's input. I don't know why I'm working up a reduced load; I guess because I can. I just have lots of handgun and shotshell powder and thought might as well try that stuff before I pay for more powder.

Besides I'd have to drive 50 miles one way and that's expensive now days..

Ron

yes seafires blue dot loads are the answer. I am playing with a load that is about 6 grns of blue dot, It sounds like a rimfire, which is what I want, because I want to shoot where other cabins are near by. Only problem is the rifle I want to shoot that load in shoots about 5" low at 50 yards compared to my full house load at 100 yards. funny thing is my other 223 shoots this particular load only 1" low which is fine. So I am going to try different bullets to see if I can fine tune it.

I got rid oof my Contender[s] in 1995.
My lite load for a 55 grain bullet in a 1 in 12 twist is 5.6 grains of UNIQUE. I ESTIMATE the velocity to be 1850 fps.

If you want to get serious about reduced loads get the "LEE SHOOTER" program.

I shoot thousands of '06 loads using 3.5-8gr Red Dot with a 115gr lead RN.

They are perfect for teaching women and kids how to shoot the big guns without hurting them.

They are only accurate out to 200 feet. But, you can have a lot of fun with them.

This is a safe charge with a safe powder in anything. I've even loaded this same thing in .300WinM's and had just as good a results.

Several of the guys I used to shoot with in match's used H110 and H4227 at about 15-25gr and outshot most of us guys using full rifle loads and decent jacketed bullets. IF I was going to load/shoot loads as you listed, think I'd used these powders. IF I had them. IF not, I'd read up on the one's I did have first.

Better study the suggested books when using rifle powders. Some will detonate when loaded too low. I'm not familiar with the one's you listed.

Get the Lee program, or Lee's manual, or get the books from the powder companies as suggested.

I've used pistol primers in .223 and sml rifle primers in .38 without problems. But, you can pierce pistol primers in a rifle, that's a fact.
For the price, stick with what's made for them.

George

I don't like using the pistol powders in rifle cases. I us AA1680 in my .222 and .223 drops you right into the 22 rimfire mag MV range and shoots well. I use the starting loads at the site below with Hornady 55 Gr. SPSX's. AA1680 surplus is available for about $56 for eight pounds surplus.


Reduced loads the other option.

quote:

6.5gr. of HP 38 under a 50gr. Speer spitzer S.P. bullet

I loaded this reduced load (above) plus a few compressed loads to try out this week at the range. I'll post results once I have them. Launching them all from a 10" Contender.

Thanks for all the replies.

Ron

Not for the .223 but for the .222 I use either 13 grain H110 or 11 grain Blue Dot and 50 grain SP bullets. Very precise without filler and not position sensitive.

WARNING: Check each and every case for a potential double load that might blow up your rifle!

Alright, here goes. Keep in mind, I'm a hunter and not a BR competitor so these may seem like huge groups to you-all. 25 Yard, sand-bagged out of a used factory .223, 10" Contender here's what happened today:
All of these loads were ignited by CCI 450s and topped w/ Speer 50gr. Spitzer SPs, 2.26 OAL. I didn't have the chrony. w/ me, sorry:

1. 26.0 gr. IMR 4350 compressed; 9 rnds, 11/16", about 18 granules of unburnt powder average left in the barrel.

2. 26.5gr. IMR 4895 compressed; 6 rnds, 5/8" (10/16), clean burn.

3. 26.5 gr. WIN 748; 9 rnds, 9/16", one ragged hole. Black streaks along entire length of body on bottom side of case.

4. 6.5 gr. HP 38 reduced; 9/16", light recoil, similar to .22 mag.

That's it, just wanted to let ya-all know...

Ron

Not too shabby! Good enough for popping the occasional tree rat I'd say. Too light with the WIN748 - no case obturation and some gas blow-back. That's not a good thing generally. You need a bit more pressure for the case to properly seal the chamber. It is one advantage of using a dirtier power for developing reduced loads, though. Looks like you're getting as good results groupwise with the HP38, so you have a good alternative.
BTW, I have a .22lr 10" Contender barrel that is very accurate and I really like it. You might want to consider one for yourself, too.

quote:

Isn't nice that I volunteer youir services, John?

any time Roger, and by the way... " the check is in the mail"...

cheers
seafire