Just a quick note.

Rifle: Custom AR-15
Bbl: 18" Pac-Nor; 1-12" twist; short throat
Scope: Zeiss Conquest 6.5-20X50mm
Case: Win. - fully prepped
Primer: Federal Match
Range: 100 yds.
Powder: Hodgdon Benchmark
Bullets: 50 and 55 gr. Hornady V-Max (MOLY)
Conditions: Shooting directly West; 56 degrees, 15 mph NNW wind gusting to 25 mph (checked local airport to verify... conditions sucked! Needless to say, I was the only one at the range)

This was the first time working up a load for this rifle using the 50 grain boat tail V-MAX. I was surprised (shocked) to see such a dramatic difference between it and the 55 gr. V-MAX.

I shot 10 round groups (actually "patterns" at first!) without cooling between shots, but plenty of cool down between groups. I fed them one at a time using a Bob Sled.

The 50 gr. bullets had 25.6, 26.0, and 26.5 gr. of Benchmark. Notice the gradual progression of the 50 gr. groups going from 7 o'clock towards 1 o'clock.

Velocity? No freakin' idea. The 25 MPH gusts blew over my chronograph right off the bat and broke the diffuser. The piece of shit barely picks up a .224 bullet on a good day... you can FORGET IT without a diffuser on a bad day. (CED Millennium 2)









Rifle:





(When not at the range or dog town, it wears a more reasonable 3-9X50mm Conquest instead)

Nice reoport. roger

that is very interesting. i quit using 50 gr in 223 because of mediocre accuracy i was getting with h335. 55's showed much better accuracy and 63 gr sierras the best. maybe i'm not nuts after all

You guys are crazy!

Everyone knows the best bullet in the .223 is the 52 grain Match King over some Winchester 748!

rc, nice group, but, without checking the books isn't that load a tad hot? Remember yours is bolt action and he was shooting a semi auto. I am a fan of WW748 as well. I use it with 69gr. SMKs. You might want to try Berger 52 gr. bullets.
Peter.

It is hot.

I've backed it off since. Had no bolt lift issues but some flat primers. The load is out of the Lyman manual and it seems some of their max's listed are hot.

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

Everyone knows the best bullet in the .223 is the 52 grain Match King over some Winchester 748!

rcamuglia-

Yes, the 52 gr BTHP Matchking is a great bullet in the .223 Rem. Arguably, the 53 gr Berger flat bases are even better. However, as you well know, each bullet has it's own application. There's something about the "Vrrrrrrrrrrr" of the match bullets ricocheting off that makes me nervous as a whore in church around expensive livestock. Know what I mean? For that reason, among others, I choose the V-MAX. I also like the explosiveness, which happens to be a great side effect!

And as far as the Win 748. Yes, it too is a GREAT powder in bolt gun. So is H335, H322, and many others. The problem I found is that Win 748 and H335 are filthy and leave a lot of unburnt powder in a gas operated semi-auto. I don't care to clean my guns in the field, so I stay away from them despite the great accuracy they provide. I save that for the bolt guns, like your fine shooting Browning you've got there.

Don't get me wrong, I do try them. Like when I first get a rifle or new barrel. (Below are the first 15 rounds fired out of this rifle... that's including all the gymnastics required during barrel break-in) But for high-volume shooting, I prefer CLEAN burning and accurate.

[UPDATE]

I should have mentioned this before, but I am doing all this in preparation to build 1,000 rounds. I've got a couple of trips coming up this year and I'm trying to wrap up the handloading part of it. That's why I'm being so damned anal retentive about all this. If you want to load 1,000 of anything, you want to be sure it's worth it.

I went back to the range again today to test the 55 gr V-MAX with three powders.

-Hodgdon Benchmark
-Vihtavuori N133
-Ramshot TAC

Used the same setup as mentioned above in the first post.

Again, the S.O.B. CED Millennium M2 chronograph is not functioning, despite passing the "flashlight test" that I was instructed to do last night over phone with customer service (in Hong Kong). Even before it fell over with the wind and broke the diffuser on Sunday, one of the sensors refuses to pick up small fast flying bullets for the past three range trips. Truthfully, .224 cal. has been its weak point from the start, but it has now stopped functioning altogether. The sensors and main unit are going back for repair/replacement tomorrow. So no velocity data; sorry!

The "PN" stands for polished necks. I was experimenting with polishing the inside of the necks using a little tool I made... that's all I'll say about it, because it has failed to make a difference in my groups after a handful of tests... but I keep trying it at least once in all my rifles.

====================================================================

Weather: 70 degrees
Wind: South 9 mph, gusts to 15 mph (not perfect, but better)

You can see I was off to a rough start, but I think most of the groups are to the best of my abilities. I left off a couple of known flyers, but even with that I think the empirical numbers from the On Target program should be taken with a grain of salt. There is certainly some subjective decision making to be done here.

For example:

1) TAC meters better out of my Harrels powder measure than either Benchmark or N133. I could use the RCBS Chargemaster, but for 1,000 rounds I think I can do it quicker with the powder measure. Although I admit that the TAC is finished dispensing in about half the time it takes the Chargemaster to through the other two as well. Interesting.

2) I plan to buy an 8 pound powder keg... a versatile powder would be best because there will be plenty left over to experiment with in other calibers.

3) Cost... although not as important because of the large quantity being purchased.
-$119.00 = TAC
-$135.50 = Benchmark
-$168.00 = N133

4) Cleanliness. I expected TAC to be dirty like the other ball powders I mentioned in my previous post, but it wasn't! It burned as clean as Benchmark and N133. I like it!

A side note, the N133 seemed to heat the brass more than the other two powders tried today. I say this because the brass with the N133 would often slightly melt the necks to the inside of the nylon netting in the brass catcher bag. The other two did not seem to have this problem. Hmmmmm...

Without further adieu, here are the groups. What would you guys go with?




















The last two groups were shot with some serious sun in my eyes. However, the wind was calmer, so I call it an overall even handicap.

No response? Either the choice is too obvious or (for once) none of you have an opinion! Ha

Either way, thanks for looking.

Hey Kenati, That sure is a fine looking rifle. Very tempting. Will you be using a Bi-Pod with it on the Hunt?

Appreciate the Observation Comments. Wish more folks would include them. Especially interesting to hear the TAC burned so clean and the N133 ejecting the Case Neck hotter. I've not tried TAC nor N133, but that might get TAC onto the Need To Try List.

There are so many excellent Powders for the 223Rem, it is difficult to select from all of them. I've settled on Benchmark for my BBQ Loads, but that is in my rifle.

Completely agree about the concern for Ricochets near livestock of all kinds. I've used the Speer TNTs for a lot of years because of just that concern. I did ask the guys on the Varmint Board some time ago what they thought was currently the most fragile and they agreed with your choice of the V-Max.

I don't see the loss of a chronograph as a big deal, because I wasted a lot of time on them in the past myself.

Really like the Imposed Measurement Squares. I've always just been concerned about the Widest two shots, but the Square is interesting.

Best of luck on the Hunt with whichever Powder you select.

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:
No response? Either the choice is too obvious or (for once) none of you have an opinion! Ha

Either way, thanks for looking.

From your results, (and my own experience), I would go with TAC. You won't find a cleaner burning easier to meter powder that gives fine performance in the .223. I bought a couple of 8 lb kegs a few years ago for $79.99 each. Wish I would have bought 4 of them at that price. I load it in a couple of .223 bolt guns and use 40 gr to 55 gr bullets. (Both have 1 in 12" twist rates) My main load has been 26.0 gr with a 50 gr bullet, either Nosler shots, V-Max or Ballistic Tip, or the Nosler 52 gr HP Match bullet with the same powder charge.

Nice shooting rig with great groups; should be a great deer rifle.

Thanks fellas for the replies. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.

After sleeping on it for a couple of nights, I think you are right. TAC it is. For all the reasons mentioned above (versatility, cost, cleanliness, meters well, accurate, etc.) I think it's the best choice.

Something to add...

I did not mention anything about cleaning in my above posts. After firing 20 rounds with the same powder, I would wipe the carbon out with "KG KG-1 Carbon Remover" (here) and continue testing with that particular powder. This was my first time using the KG-1.

Between changes in TYPE of powder, I did a fairly thorough cleaning. I say "fairly" because, as you know, I was shooting moly bullets, so I did not take it all the way down to the bare metal with Kroil. I was trying to avoid having to prime the barrel again with more moly. I used a combination of the KG-1 and the KG-12 copper remover (the latter of which I really like. KG-12 test here). Lastly, I would foul the bore with one shot of the powder to be tested and then start my series of 10 shot groups.

Unfortunately, it was not until the end of the testing (right around the time I shot the TAC) that I noticed copper on the lands at the muzzle end. It was not in the grooves. I didn't notice this until after I applied the KG-1 carbon remover, but before the KG-12 copper solvent. I was surprised (disappointed) that the moly had not prevented copper build-up like I had expected it to. I fired a total of about 65 rounds before I noticed this problem. Again, I never did clean all the way down to the metal, so maybe the moly was hiding something from me.

Any thoughts or experiences with this??


Well, I know I'm rambling, but this experience got me second guessing the whole moly thing. It's bad enough that the black color masks any residual carbon fouling while cleaning, but copper too? Frustrated, I did more research over on the benchrest forums and finally decided to give HBN (Hexagonal Boron Nitride) a try. It just arrived in the mail today. It is a solid (dare I say) "fluffy" white powder that is slicker than snot on a doorknob when you rub it between your thumb and fingers. If you think powdered sugar is fine, then wait until you see this stuff! I'll report my findings in another post in a few weeks. I'm a pretty big skeptic and dragged my feet about moly for years before I tried it, so we'll see how this stuff works. It still wouldn't surprise me if I just say to hell with it all and just break down and clean my rifle properly in the field.

Opinions welcomed.

I get exceptional results with VV 133 and the 69 SMK, but TAC at 25 - 25.5 is way superior for building up a stockpile.

Note I do not shoot over 24 grains of VV 133 and 55 grain bullets in my Colt AR... try a little less and the accuracy is awesome there ass well. Hint = 24.0 grains

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
accuracy is awesome there ass well. Hint = 24.0 grains

Thanks for the tip. I will be sure to give it a try "ass well".

To be honest, I knew I was starting the N133 (and others) a littler higher than I would have preferred, but it was my only box of 55 gr V-MAX bullets I had left. I was trying to decide based on what I had so that I could order one massive quantity and be done with it all. Now, there is no doubt that will be the 55 grainer.

Thanks again for the tip.

ive got 5 differnt ars in 223. Ive tried about every weight and brand of bullet in them and for an all around accurate bullet I favor the 60 grain vmax. It shoots moa or less in all of my ars with a load that each individual gun likes.

quote:

Originally posted by Lloyd Smale:
ive got 5 differnt ars in 223. Ive tried about every weight and brand of bullet in them and for an all around accurate bullet I favor the 60 grain vmax. It shoots moa or less in all of my ars with a load that each individual gun likes.

That's interesting. You might have a faster twist than my 1-12".

A couple of years ago, I tried the Hornady 60 gr. Spire (#2275) but I didn't feel like it was stabilizing well. I'll have to try it at longer range to confirm and see if it keyholes or drastically opens up.

Thanks for the suggestion!

I just burned up the last of my 8lbs of TAC. It is my favorite powder in my AR with 50-55gr bullets.

Not having any TAC left and not able to buy Ramshot powders locally I gave some X-Terminator a try.

Might have to switch to X-T.
100 yards, 5 rounds, Ramshot X-T, 52gr Nosler CC. Colt AR-15, 16 inch barrel, 1-9.

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
accuracy is awesome there ass well. Hint = 24.0 grains

Thanks for the tip. I will be sure to give it a try "ass well".

To be honest, I knew I was starting the N133 (and others) a littler higher than I would have preferred, but it was my only box of 55 gr V-MAX bullets I had left. I was trying to decide based on what I had so that I could order one massive quantity and be done with it all. Now, there is no doubt that will be the 55 grainer.

Thanks again for the tip.

No point in correcting that little blunder...