OK. Dumb question:

I am new to reloading and have gone through one set of about 150 .338 Win Mag cases about three times with a few discards. I have been full-length sizing with an RCBS press and Hornady dies.

I am having a bit of trouble making the cases headspace exactly on the shoulder, and I am interested in what people have said about neck-sizing.

So here's the dumb question: my Speer manual talks about neck-sizing, but doesn't say how to do it. So how do you do it?

If I take my used cases, they are inherently fire-formed to headspace on the shoulder. Right? But if I run them through my press far enough to neck-size and punch out the primer, they are also full-length-sized in the process. Right?

Another question: I have seen one webstite (Steve's Pages?) that says the longest case life comes from full-length sizing. Is that right?

Also, just to be clear, neck-sizing exactly means that you don't push the shoulder back. Right?

Sorry if this is dense. I imagine the simplicity of the answer will embarrass me, but I came here to learn.

kk

In your case a lot of "rights" makes some wrongs. You truly cannot neck size only with a full sizing die.

First of all as to how to neck size. The best, fastest and easiest way is obviously with a neck sizing die. You need to buy one.

You can partially full size brass with an FL die which will neck size but will probably also partially size the body particulary at the junction of the body/ shoulder. What you do is to back off the die from the full sizing setting. Back off about a half turn. Size a case at that setting. Chamber. It probably won't go in. Remove and turn the die in in small increments checking after each sizing, until the shell chamber with a very slight bolt resistance. Lock the die in place and you'll have it set to partially full size without too much shoulder setback. An easier way is to just buy a Stoney Point Chamber All which will quickly give you the necessary dimensions to enable this more exactly and easily.

[ 05-09-2003, 20:03: Message edited by: Bob338 ]

While a great deal of very good info can be gleaned from Steve's Pages, I don't concur that F/L resizing increases case life. I do know as a given thing, neck sizing will promote better accuracy.
To neck size, smoke or heavily oil a fired case. Loosen the lock ring on your resizing die and back it off a couple of turns or back your adjustment turret off a few turns. You want to start to resize the case but not by much. Now then, run the case thru the die and remove it. If you look at the neck under a good light, you can see where the oil or smoot has been pushed down the neck. Keep adjusting the die until the oil/smoot line is right at the junction of the neck and the shoulder but the oil/smoot on the shoulder is untouched. You are now neck sizing. To chamber the rounds done this way will usually require a tad more effort. Over the course of several reloadings, the brass work hardens more closely to the dims of your chamber, thus you will need to occassionally F/L resize the cases.
My preferred set up is to adjust my die to full length resize. Then I find a washer about the thickness of a dime or so(or I make a shim out of flat stock), that will fit around the threaded part of the die. I put it between the lock washer on the die and the press. Now, when I tighten it down, I am neck sizing. If my rounds have started to get hard to chamber or if I am loading hunting ammo, I take the washer out and F/L resize. That way I don't bugger up those damn little allen screws by constantly re-setting my dies.

Advice is good, so far.

To expand on Bob338's comments, in many instances you can neck-size only with a FL die, but it depends on how large your gun's chamber is compared to how small your sizing die is. Since you are shooting a .338, a belted magnum, and since manufacturers tend to make rather over-sized chambers in belted magnums, you may find, as Bob suggests, that it is impossible to resize a sufficient portion of the neck without also squeezing the shoulder back down a little. This is not necessarily a bad thing, however. So long as you keep from setting the shoulder back (by using beemanbeme's methods or something similar) you will still be headspacing on the shoulder and would prevent a "pressure ring" from growing near the head of your brass.

"Partial" sizing, whether intentional or unavoidable, will allow the shoulder to headspace the case, will ensure the ability to rechamber the reloaded round, and will in many instances help concentricity, especially where you may have a slightly "egged" chamber.

As far as full-length sizing extending case life . . . well there could be such a thing as an opposite Universe.

Good luck, and by the way, you obviously understand the concept of headspace much better than many reloaders who have been at it for years. Congratulations.

[ 05-09-2003, 23:06: Message edited by: Stonecreek ]

To neck size only you buy a neck sizing die. But they tend to load less accurate ammo then a full length die. The reason for this is the neck is pulled out of allignment with the body because of the expander button. The only neck sizing die worth buying is the Redding bushing dies, and learn not to use the expander button, but on a hunting gun i would not do this. For you i think this would work well= Use you full length die, make a shim from a soda can (.004" thick) punch a hole in the shim for the depriming pin. Now put the shim between the shell holder and the full length sizing die. With the ram all the way up screw the fl die down tight on the shell holder/shim. Size the brass, see if they fit your rifle after repeated firing. If the action closes to hard, bet rid of the shim when sizing.

Now, all, let's back up here. There are some generalities being thrown around here that may or may not hold.

First off, neck sizing can be done several different ways. Improvements in accuracy and case life will be small if you use any die with an expander ball. However, using either a bushing die or a collet die has always, substantially, improved both accuracy and case life.

Second, you can buy a "body die" to combine the neck sizing with a slight "bump" at the shoulder, which is something you end up having to do regularly. That way, you don't have to "start over" with a full sized case every five firings.

Were I asked to offer a generality about sizing I would suggest to partial full length size with a standard die (i.e. back the die out to the point where the shoulder is "bumped a few thousands"). If you want more accuracy or case life than that, go to the collet die with a body die, or a bushing die (either a body die/collet die combo, or a full length bushing die). FWIW, Dutch.

Dutch, ask Redding to be sure , But i believe a body die and a full lenght resizing die have the same inside measurements. I may be wrong, ask redding. I use the Redding full length sizing type-S bushing die, with out the expander.

Never have used my body die yet but, I believe it is a FL die without the neck and that is the only difference, just as 243 said. If you have to FL size, the cases can just be run through the neck die afterward with the proper bushing in place, that way the FL sizing operation doesn't size the neck too much, as with most dies except the FL bushing die of Reddings, which costs way more than their $15.00 body die does.

I turned the necks on my 300 Ultra so, my Redding FL die with no expander brings the neck down so I have the same .002" tension as with the type S neck die and a .335" bushing. Runout is always redused with the FL die as opposed to the neck die, which does nothing to straighten them if they start out eccentric.

No way that FL sizing increases case life, just the opposite is true if headspace is increased when doing it. If it isn't increased, which is highly unlikely, it still has no "advantage" to case life... neck sizing does though.

243, you are right, the body die has the same dimensions as the FL die. The advantage of the body die is to seperate the sizing operation from the neck sizing. When shooting moderate loads, it's enough to just run the neck into the bushing, and that saves a bunch of time lubing, wiping, etc. I have a FL bushing die, somewhere, but I never use it. FWIW, Dutch.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b8s4fo%24got%241%40grapevine.wam.umd.edu&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=b69fsr%245rc%241%40grapevine.wam.umd.edu&output=gplain
> Martin J. Hull, Sierra Bullet's longtime ballistic man (retired in the
> late '80s) who did virtually all their load development for all their
> bullets in all kinds of rifles (plus one of the best highpower rifle
> competitors on this planet) has this to say. In all the thousands of
> rounds in all calibers he fired testing loads for accuracy, the best
> results occurred when the case fit the chamber like a "turd in a punch
> bowl." That means full-length sizing so the case has a bit of room
> around it. He never got neck-only sizing to shoot as well as
> full-length. But full-length sizing has to be done right and most
> folks don't do it right, so they get better results by neck-only
> sizing.

In attempting to explain Bart's FL success, I think it is the thermal conductivity of the hot chamber to the case. If the powder is pre heated by the hot chamber, it raises the pressure.

At this time, I personally have not been able to determine if Lee Collet neck sizing or 1/2 neck sizing with a FL die is best.

KK!

I think that you should ask your self if you really need to improve accuracy? There are also disadvantages with neck sizing that perhaps you haven't thought about. Neck sizing is not all for the better.

For shooting on the range it may of course be useful. It's fun to shoot tight groups. For hunting purposes I'd choose full sizing. A full sized one is less likely to jam when trying to chamber it. A second round is often more useful than slightly tighter groups when you are hunting.
Also, it's cheaper to full size, as you don't have to buy two sets of sizing dies.

Thanks, all, for great responses.

Do I need accuracy for hunting? Good question!

I had about 30 rounds left of 250 gr. GameKings loaded with 65 gr. of IMR 4350. I shot 10 rounds at each of three targets. On one, I had three groups within two inches of each other, all of which were one long or one ragged hole at 100 meters.

I figure if I can shoot sub-moa with a .338 and shoot 30 rounds without beating myself up, I am about where I want to be (although there's always going to 1/10 grains ).

However, on reading some of the comments here about SGKs, I decided to change over to Nosler Partitions, so now I start the process all over.

In order to get the round set, I want to be as accurate as possible, so I have been listening to the discussions about neck-sizing being better than fl sizing. That's why the question.

Now, however, it seems like there's quite a bit of opinion in favor of fl sizing. And, since that's what I've been doing, maybe I should stick to it.

Once I get the Noslers printing like the SGKs, assuming I can, then I have to worry about polishing up my off-hand shooting. No moa worries there. Lucky to hit a pie plate.

kk

Hot Core,
If my theory is correct, neck sized should do better with long waits between shots than they do in faster shooting.

And I agree with you about the concentricity, especially if the die is made with a single reamer and does not warp in heat treat.

I put a nickel coin on the top and side of the ram,when the ram is up.Then set the die on the nickel,thats how I neck size,only the neck will size,not the shoulder.

Hot Core, how did you neck size in your tests? Neck die, bushing, collet?

The last test I ran with my 223 shrank the aggs from tuned loads from roughly 1" to 0.7" (5x5 shot groups), going from FL to collet sized cases. FWIW, Dutch.

Did I miss summit in my gunsmithing manuals! Does not a belted case headspace on the belt. In a hunting rifle such as a 338Mag therefore, you would set your die to size the case so that the bolt of the rifle will just easily close on a reloaded round.
This adjustment would mean that you may or may not be totally full length sizing the case to suit that chamber.

A lot of generalities being thrown around here, and nobody is completely wrong. What is missing is the fact that individual guns/chambers may perform better with one type of sizing method as opposed to another.

Out-of-round chambers may benefit noticeably from FL sizing. On the other hand, a nice straight, tight chamber may perform its very best with neck-sizing from something like a Lee collet die or Redding bushing die. As with powder charges, seating depth, and bullet choices, every rifle is a rule unto itself.

One thing is for certain, however. If brass is sized excessively so that the shoulder is set back enough to create significant headspace on each successive firing, it ain't a good thing. And for you hunters who think FL sized brass is essential for easy chambering, remember that so long as there is any clearance between the brass and the chamber the round will chamber without resistance anyway, so it doesn't matter how much smaller the brass is than the chamber. Whether you FL size, partial FL size, neck size only with conventional, collet, or bushing dies, or don't size at all (like many benchrester shooters), every round should be pre-chambered to assure that it will feed without a hitch.

B.A.W.: A belted round will LIKELY headspace on the belt on the first firing (depending on how the shoulder of the brass fits the chamber), but all bottlenecked belted cases should be loaded to headspace on the shoulder on subsequent firings, in my opinion.

you are right that it will vary with each rifle/chamber/brass/dies. thats the fun of loading....the experimenting. you could throw a whole new variable in if you were using a tight BR chamber. i dont size often at all for that, just knock out the primer,put in a new one, add some powder and a bullet, shoot again.the chamber is loose enough to release the bullet and shrink back to where it needs to be.

except for hunting loads, set your die for the 338 (or any belted case except straight walled) so it head spaces on the shoulder just like any bottle necked case.

You have probably gotten enough responses to totally confuse you. Everyone has probably explained what has worked well for them, so I feel there is something to learn from each response. Here is mine.

If you use a full-length sizer die, set it so that you set the shoulder back about .001-.002". This will give good case life and allow easy chambering. You can set the die to these specifications by using the Stony Point tool or a RCBS Mic Guage. You can also do it by smoking the case shoulder with a candle or a match, and setting the die to just touch the shoulder. Some of Bob Hagel's books have an excellent description of how to do this. Check your local library. I have never had very good luck trying to neck-size with a full-length sizer. As the case goes into a full-length die, the body is sized from the side and the shoulder is pushed forward. If you want to neck-size only, buy a separate neck sizer die. I recommend only sizing 75-80% of the length of the neck in the neck sizer so that you leave a short section unsized. This section will fit your chamber and keep the cartridge centered.

For hunting I prefer to full-length size my cases so they chamber easily. I use Bonanza Bench Rest dies and with FL sizing the accuracy seems to be as good as for neck sizing only. The difference in accuracy in the field is not noticible. I think your choice of the .338 Win. is excellent. I live in Utah, and also guide in Colorado, and get to use my .338 on deer and elk quite often. It is a great caliber.

Hot Core, I would invite you to re-test with a bushing or collet die.

I've heard the theory put forward that regular neck dies do not support the case BODY sufficiently to prevent the neck from being sized out-of-round.

Whatever the reason, I find that the bushing and collet dies make straighter necks, size the brass less, and, best of all, don't require lubing. Did I mention they don't need cases to be lubed and wiped? Dutch.

Ah yes, KK, the old "I can shoot 1/4inch groups from the bench but I missed the deer so it must have been bullet failure" routine. Every bench session should set aside a certain number of rounds to be used practicing "hunting" position shooting. For a really humbling experience, shoot your best 5 shot group from the bench and then shoot a 5 shoot group off hand.

I thought I read in this discussion that neck sizing does not allow the case to be supported in the chamber, but rather lay in the bottom of it. I do not believe this to be correct. If you are neck sizing, then the body should still be very close to full chamber dimensions, and therefore be held in alignment with the bore, assuming the chamber is round and properly aligned with the bore.

From a purely an accuracy point of view, neck sizing is the way to go. I have not heard of any benchrest shooters, who are THE accuracy experts, full-length resizing. On the other hand, for neck sizing to produce the desired results, the chamber must be of good quality and lined up with the bore. If not, you are better off FL resizing, which will put the case and neck back in allignment after being fired in an off center chamber.

John

Totally agree with Hondo.

If you aren't getting accuracy with neck sized cases as compared to FL sized cases, it's because of a poor marriage between the dies and the brass, or a poor load.

Hot Core,

What's the main reason you attribute PFLR to the best method for accuracy? Chamber fit and alignment is what I mean. I think it's pretty debatable myself, and far from definitive as you make it sound, just my opinion.

Brent, when it comes to guys that define "most accurate", I look at the benchrest crowd. Anyone that shoots 5 5 shot groups below .2" average, and loses a match, is better than I.

Among benchresters, some neck size, and some FL size (minimally, with only a "couple of thou" bump). So, they're no help, either.

Of course, what works for a perfectly aligned minimum dimension chamber might not translate to hunting rifle accuracy! FWIW, Dutch.

In recent years I have gradually cut over to Wilson Neck sizing knock out dies and am quite satisfied. I measure for runout and feel they are the most concentric of what's on the market today, and I no longer have to worry about my shell holder or press being out of line. It's not the speediest operation around, but I don't reload for speed, just accuracy. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal