It is a sad thing in this nation when gun manufactors turn out rifles that just plain won't shoot straight. I have talked to a lot of people who are having trouble even getting a new rifle to shoot a respectable group( 1 inch or better at 100 yards) I was looking at a Weatherby 257 magnum and the target they sent with the rifle was almost past 1 inch group. I shot some 140 grain Remington factory rounds through my new Ruger MK -77 Mark 2 SS and it scattered the shots everywhere. I was shooting off a real good gun rest and took my time. I was using a tried and true Leupold scope mounted properly by a good gun smith. I am working on some 100 grain and 120 grain loads. Going to give it a real good try at these grains. I talked to a custom rifle builder yesterday and he said to get the rifle where I wanted it, it would run about $500 -$800. Sad to think that anew rifle needs another 5-8 hundred just to hit something. On my last trip to Colorado to visit friends, I had one of them bring out his dad's old 30/06 bought in 1960. When I seen it a thousand memories flooded me. It still is used to get several deer and elk each year with 180 grain Remington bullets. And just to shoot it for the memories we nailed a tuna fish can on a ceder tree backed off 400 yards and filled it with a few 180 grain Remington rounds. I am not saying it is some fine bench shooter, but it hits what you aim at. I can name a 100 such old rifles still doing their job with out the first thing ever done to them. No floating, restocking, bedding,barrel work or anything. I am afraid we have decided that junk is ok and the going thing today. Those of us that do not have the money to have a $2000.00 rifle built seem to be stuck in the "might or might not hit a bull in the ass at 100 yards" reality. Time will tell on this rifle as I am really taking some time with it. But I expect that a few hunderd dollers will be spent before I am through. Sad but true.

I don't know what you mean by "scattered all over the place", but it is possible that the rifle is just not broken in yet. Yes, you could have gotten a "Monday rifle", if you will, but some rifles need to be broken in before they really shoot.
I would give the rifle around 100 rounds before I gave up on it. If it still won't print, then find someone to tell you exactly what is wrong with it. I would have a hard time with a gunsmith quoting me a price to fix something w/o telling me what he had to fix...

A 'smith' once told me that you don't get a 400$ barrel on a 500$ rifle. This sure has been true in my experience.
C.G.B.

Quite honestly the last four new rifles I have purchased have been some of the most accurate I have ever owned. All of them factory rifles nothing special done to them. Granted they are not the 'piece of art' that some of my earlier rifles are....but accuracy is not an issue. I can remember back when Weatherby would guarantee their rifles for three shots / 100 yds. . 1.5" groups...they bragged about it, even sent a test target. Now you are suggesting that new rifles that don't do 1 MOA are vastly inferior in accuracy to those?
You would never dream of taking your car to a mechanic and have him quote a price to fix it ...without him knowing what was wrong with it..

First of all you have the wrong idea and don't know what we talked about. The custom gun builder, whom I know well, was quoting me the price it would take to fix the rifle as I wanted it to be, not as he thought fixing a wrong. I have several rifles bought in the 60s that will still dead center factory ammo at 100 yards and did so out of the box. No so called breaking in on any of them. Alot of people have received many a new rifle that will not shoot well at all. I will see tomorrow as I will be running 100 grain and 120 grain through it at 100 yards. Scattering to me is 1.5 and above especially after using the old rifles that are dead on. I have a 1952 30/30 and shooting 170 grain Remington bullets, with iron sights, it will out shoot this New Ruger. I have killed deer at such distances with it that 99.0 percent of people wouldn't believe it, but had witnesses to every shot. If you think I am stupid when it comes to the differance between "getting something fixed" and paying to fix nothing you are barking up the wrong tree for sure. Will see tomorrow how it does.

I don't F*** with factory barrels anymore - I go straight to aftermarket barrels, such as Krieger, Shillen, Hart, etc. They work much better!

I don't really care what anyone thinks about how any rifle shoots or doesn't shoot. I have several rifles bought in the 60s that shot dead on at 100 yards from the box and still will and we didn't have to "break any in either" I have a 1952 30/30 that will out shoot this new Ruger. The custom rifle builder, whom I know well, was quoting the price for what I wanted done to it to not a "fix something" price. Hell I know the differance between fixing something and improving something. I am glad you all have such accurate rifles and we will see about this one tomorrow as I will be running 100 and 120 grain bullets through it. We used to open the box, shoot a few factory rounds and go hunting the next day. Many do that now, but I have talked to a big bunch who couldn't get the new rifle to hit anything. Those who didn't grow up in the late 50s 60s have no clue to what I mean anyway.

Ackley improved, you back up everything I am trying to say!

On a Ruger, expect a $20 barrel. If it shoots better than that, you are lucky.

I have a factory Remington CDL in .270 win that will clover leaf handloads. I have never put a factory round through it so I wouldnt know about that. When this barrel is gone I am gonna have a good barrel put on in the same caliber. Probably go with Lilja or Shilen.

Since were talking about rifles that wont shoot, I've got something to say. My friend purchased an FAL variant that was new and pretty much jammed every round. He was very dissapointed. He took it back to the gun shop it was purchased at. To both our suprise, the gun guy said it needed to be broken in and that it was common for those rifles to jam for the first 200 rounds. I have owned both new and used guns, all of which very rarely jam. Has anyone ever heard of rifles that jam frequently until broken in?

I will now TRY the factory barrel before replacing it.

When I look back from my death bed, maybe even trying a factory barrel will seem a waste of time, as keeping a barrel on the margin is a mistake.

I think that you would be very disappointed if you had the finest barrel from Hart, Lilja, Shilen or others put on your rifle. Proper break in is essential to get maximum accuracy from these expensive barrels, why would you expect a factory hammer forged barrel to shoot well without a process to remove the roughness from the manufacturing process? Find a gunsmith with a good borescope and look at the inside of high and low quality barrels. You will be amazed at how rough they are.

The other factor in how well a gun shoots is the shooter. Most people don't want to discuss that because it affects their ego. Most men think that just because they are men they can shoot well. BULL. I am humbled when I see my friends who do bench-rest competition shoot. I have one friend that has Cerebral Palsey and shakes like a vibratory sander. He can deliver groups in the .1's and .2's. I can't get close to his groups shooting the same rifle!!!

I think your basic gripe is that the firearms manufacturers seem to have let rifle accuracy go to hell. To some extent you are right. They have to set tolerances for their products that they can afford to achieve. So you will see rifles with minute-of-deer accuracy. Would you like to see the base price for a bolt action 30-06 jump to $1500??? That is about what it would take to guarantee you 1 minute accuracy from a factory gun with factory ammo. I would instead be glad that I can buy a gun for $300 to $500 that I could then bed, work the trigger, break in the barrel, and have shoot under 2 minutes of angle. Very few people shoot game from a bench rest and the 1/2 minute rifle would be a waste for them. Don't stop griping. Just aim it directly at the manufacturers in well thought out letters and be sure to
tell them that you are willing to pay more for an accurate rifle.

Yeah understand the think they know how to shoot thing. But with all the new age metals and ways to work with those metals and with all the new laser guided machines you would think the rifles would be better than they are. We have decided that the factory rifles do not have to be as good as they should be. We paid $150.00 for a good 30/06 in the 60s. And with a plain old wooden stock, steel barrel, iron sights and factory ammo we could blow the 1 inch center out of a target set at 100 large steps. We took a Winchester 32 special, 30/30, 30/06 and a .270 out of the box the same day with factory Remington ammo. A small brass hammer adjusted the sights so each of them blew the center out of a 1 inch circle. They still will today after being hunted with for years. So I buy a new age Ruger Stainless Steel .260 with composit stock, a 3x9 Leupold scopeand a good solid rifle rest and shoot 1.5 to 2.0 with it. Are the old rifles better? Don't know what better is but they damned sure shoot a lot better. They were all broke in on deer and elk at about 300 yards or better. As far as the base price for how I would like to see this new age rifle shoot, you are looking at over $1500.00 anyway, after it is improved. $480.00 for the rifle, $400.00 scope, $350.00 new stock, $75.00 bedding, %250.00 barrel, $200.00 to tune all parts up and then the labor cost to do it all about $300.00. Looking at $2025.00 and hope it shoots like the old 30/06! Bitch, yeah I bitch when I think that we have let communist companies dictate the quality of our materials turned out these days and how the congress of this nation have sent all our factories overseas. Well anyway tomorow we will see how the .260 does with 100 and 120 grain bullets.

Makes me think back to when I was a wee lad and my Red Rider was as accurate as all get out. Truth be known, it left a bit to be desired. Now as to todays rifles, many are far superior to their fore fathers as well. However, much of what we expect in life is beyond reality, but not beyond our dreams. Good luck in your quests.

You didn't say wether you were reloading or not if you are you may want to try these loads with a 100 and 120 gr bullet.
These groups were shot with a 260 ruger mk 11 ss,only thing done to it was adjusting the trigger and working up a good load.

Well, I'm in the middle of an experience that shows how SUPERBLY a new factory rifle can shoot.

Normally I like older rifles, blue steel, walnut and all that. However, I recently bought a stainless/synthetic Savage .338 which had only a total of SIX rounds fired through it at the time....he threw in the remainder of the first box of ammunition.

I have done NOTHING to this rifle beyond reducing the trigger weight a tad, and mounting a 3-9 VX-II scope. Nor did I attempt any form of "break-in" whatever.

This very morning I took some trial elk loads to the range, which were a series of Re-19 charges from 70.0 grains to 75.0 grains, in one-grain increments. The bullets were Barnes 225-grain TSX, and all were fired from 100 yards.

The 73.0 charge landed three rounds in one inch, even. The 74.0 charge grouped three in 0.46", and the 75.0 load grouped three rounds in 0.57"....at 2850 fps!!!! I have VARMINTERS that took major work and 'smithing to get down to groups like this, and here's this cheapo FACTORY Savage at 7.6 pounds and muzzlebraked, squirming on the rest and going UNDER 1/2 minute of angle with full-power big-game loads.

I am very, very impressed. It's ugly, it's cheap, but Dear Lord, does this FACTORY rifle ever SHOOT.

Hey owensby!
Yeah tomorrow I will try out 9 different loads from 37.0 to 43.5 grains of IMR 4064. And then I will shoot a box of Remington 120 Accura rounds. I couldn't quite make out the load you had as I forgot to slow my accelator down and it blured it some. Was that R-15 47.5 grains? Thanks I will give it a try! I am not trying to throw this rifle away or anything, just want it to shoot as good as the old $150.00 45 year old 30/06. Thanks again! Will get back when I try it.

Hey Bren MK 1
Glad you have a good shooting rifle and I realize there are many out there like that. I have had a bad experience with four new rifles that just would not shoot well. I can pull out the old ones and they still put it in the dot. I just think the $600.00 doller new age rifles should shoot as good as the old $150.00 ones a few years ago out of the box. But that is enough from me about all this. The old 06 stands ready if I need it.

Blob 1,
Thanks for your thoughts on the post @ 6:27. It's a sad day when you can't hardly find anything manufactured in the U.S. of A. anymore!! I for one do everyhting in my power to by from here....my Winchester, Colt, S&W ect.. By the way, my last rifle needed handloads to shoot under 1", but my '64 .270 will still print <.65".
Good luck

Of the three factory rifles I've got so far this year , The Ruger .243 varmint is just fine , the 12BVSS_s in .223 is looking great, the CZ.222 527 American is not 1moa or better but it is a nice light weight walking around rifle.

Blob, I was there in the 40s and 50s. One rifle you seemed to have some good luck with was a 32 special. I guess you and Seafire's Grand Pa got the only 2 good ones.As a boy the out of the box performance of mine wasn't too good and it never got any better.

The first mod. 760 I saw shot a 1 1/2" group at 50 yds. and the guy was as happy as a pig in poop.In "57" I got a brand new 03A3, 4 groove barrel pistol grip , only one shot fired through it. Could never do better than 3" at 100 yds.I had a 6.5 Carcano that shot that good.

I won't belabor it but unless I'm having a memory turn around the accuracy of rifles when I was a kid wasn't any better than it is today. Most of us who reloaded than( and there weren't many )weren't even sure what minute of angle meant. We just took turns bouncing the can.

I hope your outing with that .260 puts a smile on your face and a happier outlook. roger

$150 rifle in 1960 would equate with inflation to somewhere around $1500 these days. So if we can buy new rifles today for $500-700 they are less than half price in todays dollar of what they were 45 years ago.

No the load wasn't r-15 it was R-19 @
If you use that much R-15 you might not have a rifle left.
When I get loads off the internet I allways check them with a reloadingmanual to see if they are usable.And then start lower and work up.
The loads were :
100 gr BT= 48.5 grs of R-19

120 gr sierra BTHP or speer spitzer= 47.5 grs of R-19


Let us know how they shoot they shot good in 4 different rifles.
Let us know how the 4064 shoots too,I have some loads to try using it too.

Hey, Blob - let me tell you a little secret, hoss! There are a few factory rifles that will shoot 1" or better right out of the box - BUT DAMN FEW!! One cannot reasonably expect much better than 2 or 2.5 MOA from a TYPICAL PRODUCTION-LINE rifle of any make that has had nothing done to it, particularly if one is shooting ammo that has not been specifically tailored to that individual rifle.

This may be contrary to what the "experts" write up or claim on their TV shows, but most of them are B.S. artists who are beholden to the manufacturers.

This is essentially the way it has always been.

Tikka has a 1 MOA guarantee, and Savage rifles have been known to shoot great right out of the box.

Why is it that a "Cheap" rifle like a Savage will often out shoot a Remington out the box while costing less?

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
.. a little secret, hoss! There are a few factory rifles that will shoot 1" or better right out of the box - BUT DAMN FEW!! .[/b]

.

I spoke with a gunsmith about getting a rifle accurized. He said he could rebarrel with a Lija, Hart, etc and glass bed and that would get me to 1 moa.
He said that I could also buy rifles, test them, sell them, and look for one that would shoot 1 moa.

He said the two processes cost about the same, but the rebarrel and glass bed would take less time.

Many old hands ( I'm not one ) recall being quite pleased years ago with 1.5" groups, if they were so lucky. No doubt there were exceptions that would do better ( as you mentioned ) but I've never heard nor read that the industry consistently produced tack-drivers back then.

Today's product is, by mosts reports, consistently more accurate, on the average, than what was available forty years ago. Of course, I'm not partial to today's pot metal and plastic parts, but we are speaking of average accuracy.

And I recall ground beef at .29/lb. "back then."

To see what some of those "$20 Ruger barrels" will do, go to:

http://stevespages.com/targets.html

Ricciardelli,

I am sorry, but the first group on Steve's pages shows basically four holes in a line made by four .224 diameter bullets. He then claims a group size of .260 inch. If you had two holes side by side from .224 bullets then I could believe .260 inch center to center spread.
With four in a line I can't believe anything less than 2x.224 inch or .448 inch center to center. I think there must be a typo somewhere.

I still believe the point your are trying to make - there are many factory rifles that shoot well today. The contention that most of the old ones shot well I have to believe is colored by time and nostalgia. It is true that most factory barrels nowadays are made by hammer forging and most of the early 60's barrels were made by drilling and rifling. The only really crappy factory barrels were the early Rugers when they bought what ever cheap barrel they could get. The primary problem I am finding with new factory rifles is not the barrels but the poor bedding and the heavy, gritty triggers.

The bottm line is that we must communicate with the rifle manufacturers what our preferences are and we must also be willing to pay for changes in manufacturing processes to deliver those preferences.

If you started with a FREE action you would find it difficult to assemble a stock/trigger/barrel/action combination for much less than $800 which makes the typical factory rifle a bargain. If you want a bargain that shoots get a new by Savage Stevens bolt action rifle. For less than $300 bucks it is definitely a bargain.

Good topic, Blob (icky handle, though!)

I bought a Browning Safari-grade Mauser in 7mm Remington Magnum in 1969 in Edmonton, Alberta. In those days, the Browning prices were the same on both sides of the US-Canada border, and we paid $265.00 Canadian for that gorgeous rifle.

With extensive handloading experience, it would usually hold an inch or a tad more for FIVE rounds with our hunting loads at 100 yards, usually using 140 Nosler Partitions for caribou and 160 or 175 Partitions for moose. Even today, that is pretty decent performance, and WOW...have you priced an excellent-condition Safari-grade these days? Try $1000 or more....

I'm somewhat amazed at the performance of this Savage .338, grouping TSXs at 1/2"/100yards. I can't explain why such an inexpensive rifle should shoot so well, but judging by Internet comments it is NOT a fluke. Savage is doing something right.

For the rest of the makers, I suspect the lack of gunmaking skills in the workforce has pushed gunmakers into accomodations which minimize human contact with the products going out the door, and many flaws probably escape the inspection process.

The latest big-name rifle I bought before this Savage is a Winchester Super-Grade M70 in .338, 1998 vintage, and in all honesty, I have to say that it is a gem. Beautiful to look at, well fitted, and it shoots VERY well (but not as well as that %$#@*& Savage). I wish all our new guns were as good as this M70.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
Ricciardelli,

I am sorry, but the first group on Steve's pages shows basically four holes in a line made by four .224 diameter bullets. He then claims a group size of .260 inch. If you had two holes side by side from .224 bullets then I could believe .260 inch center to center spread.
With four in a line I can't believe anything less than 2x.224 inch or .448 inch center to center. I think there must be a typo somewhere.

First of all, there are not 4 holes, there are 5.

And just to make you happy, I re-measured that group. It is .484", edge to edge. Subtract .224" for bullet diameter, and the group size IS .260".

Now, if that isn't enough, the USA penny is .75" in diameter. If you take the ratio of the size of the penny on your screen to that of a real penny, multiply that times the size of the group on your screen, subtract .224, you will come up with .266".

At http://www.riflebarrels.com/default.htm
they have a really gruesome borescoping video of a brand new factory rifle - enjoy !

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.guns/browse_frm...b33/7464d8122906543d

quote:

One of those 5-shot groups will be very small and oft times
referred to as a "wallet group." Wallet groups have only a few shots;
typically no more than five. They are the ones folks carry around in
their billfold and show to people to impress them with the accuracy
level they attained.

Back in the 50's I shot several new win 94 30/30's. None would come close to 1" at 100 yards. An average of 4-5 inches would be close to the truth.
Good Luck!

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
.. a little secret, hoss! There are a few factory rifles that will shoot 1" or better right out of the box - BUT DAMN FEW!! .[/b]

.

I spoke with a gunsmith about getting a rifle accurized. He said he could rebarrel with a Lija, Hart, etc and glass bed and that would get me to 1 moa.
He said that I could also buy rifles, test them, sell them, and look for one that would shoot 1 moa.

He said the two processes cost about the same, but the rebarrel and glass bed would take less time.

I suspect that gunsmith is correct.

quote:

Originally posted by ricciardelli:
To see what some of those "$20 Ruger barrels" will do, go to:

http://stevespages.com/targets.html

Outstanding, Steve! Even if my rifles all shot that well for YOU, I could not shoot them that well myself!

What a lot of the above comments fail to note is the great improvement in BULLETS that has taken place over the years as well. In addition, a lot of factory ammo (UGH!!) is better than ever as well!

quote:

Originally posted by hawkins:
Back in the 50's I shot several new win 94 30/30's. None would come close to 1" at 100 yards. An average of 4-5 inches would be close to the truth.
Good Luck!

I have only owned two M70 Winchesters in my lifetime. One was made in 1949, a .375 H&H Supergrade. This rifle would consistently hold 1 MOA with a 300-grain Winchester Silvertip and 66 grains of IMR 3031. This with a Lyman 2.5X Alaskan in a Jaeger sidemount. The other was a pre-64 .308 Featherweight. It would hold three in one inch, after which the group enlarged. But never to more than 1.5".

The old rifles were probably better than the bullets or ammo available back then.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob1: "It is a sad thing in this nation when gun manufactors turn out rifles that just plain won't shoot straight...."

Geez, maybe it's just my dumb luck but I've bought three brand new rifles this year and all three will did better than 1.5 inches at 100 yards with factory (not match) ammo right out of the box. One was a Ruger MkII in .375HH. The other two were stainless steel Winchester M70s, one a .375HH the other an '06. Best rifles I've ever owned. They shoot perfectly and they feed and eject flawlessly. I've heard horror stories before, mostly on the AR forum, but I must've been very very good in my previous life because I've had excellent luck with these factory stock rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Clifton Clowers:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blob1: "It is a sad thing in this nation when gun manufactors turn out rifles that just plain won't shoot straight...."

Geez, maybe it's just my dumb luck but I've bought three brand new rifles this year and all three will did better than 1.5 inches at 100 yards with factory (not match) ammo right out of the box. One was a Ruger MkII in .375HH. The other two were stainless steel Winchester M70s, one a .375HH the other an '06. Best rifles I've ever owned. They shoot perfectly and they feed and eject flawlessly. I've heard horror stories before, mostly on the AR forum, but I must've been very very good in my previous life because I've had excellent luck with these factory stock rifles.

Congratulations! I never said it can't happen, but I think you may be fortunate!

quote:

Originally posted by waitaminit:
At http://www.riflebarrels.com/default.htm
they have a really gruesome borescoping video of a brand new factory rifle - enjoy !

Actually it isn't that gruesome, that's what your average factory rifle bore looks like through a borescope. I have a new model 70 winchester whose barrel looks even more 'gruesome' through a borescope than the one on the video. It shoots suprisingly well considering, shoots better than either of my near mint original pre-64 featherweights with the cut rifled barrels that look much nicer through the borescope but don't shoot near as good.