Then I bought a new scale. I had been using a Lyman balance beam trickler for several years now and never had a problem.Last summer I worked up some handloads for my new Savage .223 with 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips and Reloader 10X for prairie dogs. At starting loads the velocity was really low so I started increasing the powder charge until I had sticky bolt lift. I then backed off 2/10ths and played with seating depth until I found the load. It chronographed at 3,797 fps and I was able to put 10 shots into less than 3/4 inch at 200 yards. I went to Kansas and fired over 1,200 rounds with no problems.

Yesterday I decided to use my old Lyman #55 Ideal powder thrower and verify the weight using my new Pact digital scale. I threw the charge I'd worked up last summer, checked it on the scale and dumped it into the funnel. Powder poured all over the reloading block. What? Last summer that charge only filled to the bottom of the case neck. This year, with the same lot powder, it runs over? I got the old trickler out, calibrated it with a check weight, trickled the charge out and weighed it on the Pact. It was 2.4 grains light and filled the case to the bottom of the case neck. Hmmmm?

I weighed the checkweights from the trickler, the new scale and an old Redding balance beam scale I know longer have. All were dead on. I had exactly 5 rounds from last year left. I pulled the bullets and weighed the charge. They were all light by as much as 2 grains. What's more they varied from lightest to heaviest by 1.4 grains. How in the world did that rifle shoot them that well?

I had also worked up a new load using 60 grain Nosler Partitions for one of my other .223s last year. I pulled the bullets and weighed the powder. The weight varied by .7 grain and was as much as 8/10ths grain heavier than I thought they were.

So, now here I am having to start all over again working up a prairie dog load (dang, gotta shoot some more), and I'm going to pull the bullets from all 16 of my other cartridges and see what they really weigh.

Wayne

may I suggest you throw that electronic thing in the trash.....and do this
use a ball powder in the .223....I'm a big fan of BL-C(2).....

set a powder measure to dump the desired weight of powder you have worked up with a beam scale.

Check one of 10 dumps to insure nothing has moved.

Dump 50 loads or so and take the loads to a light and look in all the cases to insure the powder level is consistant in all cases.....this eliminates empty cases and double loads as they are very obvious...

seat bullets and go hunting.

One more thing.....when you have that sticky bolt opening you should back off at least two full grains.....not 2/10 of a grain...

quote:

Then I bought a new scale

There's your problem!
I don't own one of those digital wonders and never will, I don't trust them.

I bought a RCBS 505 scale for my first reloading scale back in 1981 and checked it with a check weight from our precision scale at work right after I bought it. I have reloaded on it ever since and never even thought about it again.

About two months ago I helped a friend set up his new reloading gear and checked his whizzbang electronic scale against it just for fun. The average for about twenty different loads from 20 to 75 grains of powder was less than 0.1 grains and we didn't have one reading with over a 0.2 grain difference.

I was amazed at both of them.

The "whiz bang" powder dispensers are nothing more than a gimmick to separate reloaders from their money! With a good powder measure(most any of them using ball or spherical or small stick powders)there is no way that they could speed me up when charging large numbers of cases!! And using a QUALITY measure(read that as a "HARREL'S or the old tried and true BELDING AND MULL" and using a good balance beam scale..........they are all pretty much made by Ohaus for RCBS, DILLON and others and checking about one out of 10 thrown charges I can out charge any of the whizz bang electronic scales! I do have one of the FRANKFORD ARSENAL digital scales that I use occasionaly to check the balance beams and it has actually been used to weigh charges thrown for certain lots of ammo............cost a whole $30.00 or so! GHD

quote:

Originally posted by Doctor D:
... I pulled the bullets and weighed the charge. They were all light by as much as 2 grains. What's more they varied from lightest to heaviest by 1.4 grains. How in the world did that rifle shoot them that well?...

Hey Wayne, That 1.4gr variance "might be" caused by individual grains of Powder sticking to the inside of the Case. If they are new unfired Cases, there is no chance for this happening. But once a Case has been fired, Powder Residue Fouls the inside of the Case just like it does the barrel. And that Residue can cause individual Powder Grains to stick to it.

Take one of the Cases that measured "light", try tapping the Case Mouth on a piece of soft Wood and see if a bit more Powder dislodges. Might not be this at all, but I've seen it happen to some Loads I needed to Pull the Bullets on.
-----

By the way, you have inadvertently mentioned another reason people who hand out Loads and say, "Use XX.Xgr of old Stump Blower with a 165gr Bullet to get 3058.9fps in your 30-06(barrel length or Pressure doesn't matter to these folks).", can be giving out Dangerous Loads. Unless the Scale is "Calibrated" to a Recognized Standard, what your Scale measures dosen't necessarily mean it will weigh the same on a different Scale.

However, it really doesn't matter what your Scale indicates the weight is as long as it is consistent. Once you Develop a Load using a specific Scale, there is nothing wrong with seeing what the same amount of Powder weighs on a different Scale - BUT - it doesn't really matter to us Reloaders if it is different as long as it is consistent.

Another excellent reason WHY the old advice of, "Always Develop your Load from below anytime you change ANY component in the process and STOP when Pressure Indicators appear.", is still the Gold Standard for Reloading.

Best of luck to you.

I have seen similar variance in loads from my Lyman DPS. I fixed it by turning off my cell phone. The cell phone seemed to affect the accuracy.

Doctor D,

If the humidifier or heater is running in the house the current draw makes my Pact scale change by up to 1 grain.
I have to check to make sure all large current draw appliances, that are on the same circut breaker, are turned off.
I also set up my RCBS beam scale and check every fith load from the PACT scale and trickler combo I have.
Had a similar issue a while back and figured it out.
Hope this helps.

I only consider the digital scales fit to weigh cases and bullets and then only when powered by a battery.

My powders is dispensed using an AMT Autoscale.
This dinosuar has 2 power trickler feeding a balance beam scale is works well for extruded powders.

As I am a rookie at reloading I do read these threads frequently. That said, I've been using electronic scales since the mid 70s in chemistry labs with absolute accuracy. When I saw the RCBS Chargemaster I researched it quite a bit and read any reviews I could on it. The research said "give it a shot". It's been flawless so far. Please understand I don't reload in volume and I reload only for 3 rifle cartridges so I don't have a large "sampling" but it has worked very well.

Ken....

I'm with you Heat. I have had the RCBS 1500 for quite a while now and it has yet to skip a beat. It always does exactly as I expect it to. After calibrating with the two 50 gram weights, the pan always weighs 155 grains. It doesn't matter whether I have the AC on, my cell phone on or the flourescent bulb right above it on.

Now I have seen a lot of these threads and it seems to me that the complaints and problems happen with the other brands, not the RCBS 1500 Chargemaster. And I reload for 41 different rifles.

RCBS Chargemaster myself. I love it for any low-volume precision work.

For high volume loading I use Ball powder in a progressive press for my .223. I get 3/4" accuracy at 100 yards from a DPMS upper AR15. I never bothered to chrono that load...It was the first load I created, mid-pack from the Speer manual, and it shot so well I simply said "Good 'Nuff".

So, different strokes...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
may I suggest you throw that electronic thing in the trash.....and do this
use a ball powder in the .223....I'm a big fan of BL-C(2).....

set a powder measure to dump the desired weight of powder you have worked up with a beam scale.

Check one of 10 dumps to insure nothing has moved.

Dump 50 loads or so and take the loads to a light and look in all the cases to insure the powder level is consistant in all cases.....this eliminates empty cases and double loads as they are very obvious...

seat bullets and go hunting.

One more thing.....when you have that sticky bolt opening you should back off at least two full grains.....not 2/10 of a grain...

Hey there vapodog,
I think I need to clarify a couple things. First off I did throw that electronic thing in the trash. I thought I said I went back to the Lyman measure and a new scale. The new scale because I really have a hard time reading my Redding balance beam these days.
I'm a big fan of BL-C(2) also - for heavier weight bullets - I couldn't get it to work very good with 40 grainers.
As far as the sticky bolt, and I know I didn't make this very clear, I have slicked up the bolt lugs and recesses so smooth the bolt will open and eject a case with just a flick of my index finger. I could feel the slightest resistance and what I failed to include was the group had opened back up, hence the 2/10s reduction.

quote:

Originally posted by swheeler:

quote:

Then I bought a new scale

There's your problem!
I don't own one of those digital wonders and never will, I don't trust them.

Hmmm...I've been an electronics technician for 35 years, I ain't afraid of a little bit of electricity.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I bought a RCBS 505 scale for my first reloading scale back in 1981 and checked it with a check weight from our precision scale at work right after I bought it. I have reloaded on it ever since and never even thought about it again.

About two months ago I helped a friend set up his new reloading gear and checked his whizzbang electronic scale against it just for fun. The average for about twenty different loads from 20 to 75 grains of powder was less than 0.1 grains and we didn't have one reading with over a 0.2 grain difference.

I was amazed at both of them.

Same here with the Pact and my old Redding. Last week I weighed a bunch of Nosler Ballistic Tips and Sierra Match Kings out of curiosity and to check the Pact. Both scales weighed them exactly the same.
The vast majority of the 69 grain SMKs weighed exactly 69 grains. One was as low as 68.7 and one weighed 70.2, two weighed 70 and all the rest were dead on.
Amazingly the NBTs varied even less, the lightest was 39.8 and the heaviest was 40.2, however there were a lot of 39.9s and 40.1s.
Pretty darn good for standard production bullets, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by groundhog devastation:
The "whiz bang" powder dispensers are nothing more than a gimmick to separate reloaders from their money! With a good powder measure(most any of them using ball or spherical or small stick powders)there is no way that they could speed me up when charging large numbers of cases!! And using a QUALITY measure(read that as a "HARREL'S or the old tried and true BELDING AND MULL" and using a good balance beam scale..........they are all pretty much made by Ohaus for RCBS, DILLON and others and checking about one out of 10 thrown charges I can out charge any of the whizz bang electronic scales! I do have one of the FRANKFORD ARSENAL digital scales that I use occasionaly to check the balance beams and it has actually been used to weigh charges thrown for certain lots of ammo............cost a whole $30.00 or so! GHD

Yeah, I know, I came to that conclusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Wayne, That 1.4gr variance "might be" caused by individual grains of Powder sticking to the inside of the Case. If they are new unfired Cases, there is no chance for this happening. But once a Case has been fired, Powder Residue Fouls the inside of the Case just like it does the barrel. And that Residue can cause individual Powder Grains to stick to it.

Take one of the Cases that measured "light", try tapping the Case Mouth on a piece of soft Wood and see if a bit more Powder dislodges. Might not be this at all, but I've seen it happen to some Loads I needed to Pull the Bullets on.
-----

By the way, you have inadvertently mentioned another reason people who hand out Loads and say, "Use XX.Xgr of old Stump Blower with a 165gr Bullet to get 3058.9fps in your 30-06(barrel length or Pressure doesn't matter to these folks).", can be giving out Dangerous Loads. Unless the Scale is "Calibrated" to a Recognized Standard, what your Scale measures dosen't necessarily mean it will weigh the same on a different Scale.

However, it really doesn't matter what your Scale indicates the weight is as long as it is consistent. Once you Develop a Load using a specific Scale, there is nothing wrong with seeing what the same amount of Powder weighs on a different Scale - BUT - it doesn't really matter to us Reloaders if it is different as long as it is consistent.

Another excellent reason WHY the old advice of, "Always Develop your Load from below anytime you change ANY component in the process and STOP when Pressure Indicators appear.", is still the Gold Standard for Reloading.

Best of luck to you.

There wasn't any powder stuck inside, they were new unfired cases. I tapped and looked.

I understand what you're saying about different passing out different loads and equipment not being calibrated the same. I now longer tell anyone what charge weight I use (notice I left that out in my original post). I posted my pet load for my .25-06 here on the board a while back and some darn fool nearly blew his gun and maybe himself because he didn't start low and work up. He just loaded up and ....

My problem here is my old scale/trickler was so inconsistant (and I don't know when it started being inconsistant) and so far off from the digital scale that I'll have to reweigh everything just to keep it the same.

quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:
Doctor D,

If the humidifier or heater is running in the house the current draw makes my Pact scale change by up to 1 grain.
I have to check to make sure all large current draw appliances, that are on the same circut breaker, are turned off.
I also set up my RCBS beam scale and check every fith load from the PACT scale and trickler combo I have.
Had a similar issue a while back and figured it out.
Hope this helps.

Thanks nitro,
It wasn't the new Pact scale that was off, it was the old Lyman trickler/scale that was out of whack.

When I first tried playing with the Pact it wouldn't stabilize. The owners manual suggested air currents or circuits. In my case the problem turned out to be the load on the circuit. I plugged it into my computers UPS.
Stable as can be.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
I'm with you Heat. I have had the RCBS 1500 for quite a while now and it has yet to skip a beat. It always does exactly as I expect it to. After calibrating with the two 50 gram weights, the pan always weighs 155 grains. It doesn't matter whether I have the AC on, my cell phone on or the flourescent bulb right above it on.

Now I have seen a lot of these threads and it seems to me that the complaints and problems happen with the other brands, not the RCBS 1500 Chargemaster. And I reload for 41 different rifles.

I don't know if it's true, but I've read the RCBS is made by Pact. True? False?

Anyway I bought the scale but have decided not to get the dispenser - at least not yet - I'm gonna stick with the Lyman #55 for a while. It throws everything I've tried to within .2 and ball and short stick to within .1.

quote:

Hmmm...I've been an electronics technician for 35 years, I ain't afraid of a little bit of electricity

Hmmm...I've been a reloader for 45 years, I don't need any electricity and my loads don't vary by .2 grains of powder, let alone 2 grains.

quote:

Originally posted by Doctor D:
... I posted my pet load for my .25-06 here on the board a while back and some darn fool nearly blew his gun and maybe himself because he didn't start low and work up. He just loaded up and ...

Hey Wayne, Once upon a time, long, l-o-n-g ago... , I had a guy named Leonard on a Varmint Board WARN me about posting Loads. He was right then and it still holds true for today.

Is the electronic Lyman Powder Dispensor/Scale the one they have the "update Kit" available for? I seem to remember someone mentioning it and it had to be here at AR. But it could have been a different Manufacturer all together.

I occasionally have to clean the Pivots and V-Blocks on my ancient old 1010 Ohaus, and then it keeps on weighing.

Sounds like you are good to go now. Best of luck to you.

The old RCBS was made by PACT just molded from green plastic not grey, I do not know about the new RCBS with the scale and trickler that are integrated !
Cheers

This may be a silly question but did you calibrate the electronic scale? I think the old method with the balance beam and powder charger is quicker and just as accurate. My RCBS is slow and noisy. The electronic scale does have many uses so it stays on my bench. If your loads were accurate then go with them. 1/3 MOA is pretty good so why worry?