I have been studying Daryl Holland(sp?) and he was mentioning you want to shoot the bullet with the highest BC available for that caliber. I shoot 300 win and 300wsms and saw the Berger 210 has a .631 BC but I am guessing I can only get about ~2750fps with those. Any experience with those?

Also, wouldn't that make my barrel last longer shooting the slower of the bullets? Or is it more tied to the pressures(which makes sense)?

bullet choice is dependent on what you're shooting at. holland is concerned with very long range shooting. and no - it won't make the barrel longer

I only shoot premium bullets for big game, NorthForks & Partitions. In my experience, I could care less for "the highest BC". Then again, I don't shoot big game at a mile. I'm not gonna take a chance with my game by testing high BC bullets on my game. Those folks can test their own. I know that Partitions & Northforks perform.
Bear in Fairbanks

I am concerned a lot more with sectional density and using good bullets, I don't shoot at 600, 700, 800 yards or more. I think it is unsporting anyway.

IT depends on how far & what you are shooting. A high BC bullet matters little out to 300yds, beyond that I see an advantage for paper, but bullet construction for hunting anyway, is more important than BC to me. Most high BC target bullets just don't cut it on game deer size & up.

The best compromise between high BC and premium bullet IMO is the Nosler Accubond. For example, the 180 grain .308 NAB has a BC=0.507, which is quite good making it a great long range bullet, that will not break up at close range and high velocity. Regards, AIU

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Shoot the Highest BC bullet possible?

Context is missing.

quote:

Originally posted by MRAMSAY10:
... the Berger 210 has a .631 BC but I am guessing I can only get about ~2750fps with those. Any experience with those?

I have no experience with those Bullets, so I can not comment about how well they would perform On-Game. However, it does sound like a Paper Target Bullet, since that is what the Berger's were designed for.

If a person is intending to do a lot of shooting at very long distances, the higher the B.C., the more Energy is retained and there is a bit less Wind Effect on the Flight Path. Both of which can be very important. The actual Bullet Design is of Paramount importance though and if a Lower B.C. "Hunting Grade" Bullet is accurate in your rifle, often it is a much better choice.

As an example, I know of many hundreds of Deer Killed cleanly with 150gr and 165gr Round Nose Bullets started at 308Win Velocities from 100<->400yds. Certainly not the highest B.C. Bullets to be found, but their design worked great on Deer.

But, it is all a Balance Game. You can "Guesstimate" the Velocity for your rifle close enough to use the External Ballistic Tables found in a lot of Bullet Manufacturers Manuals. I just used those in the Speer Manual yesterday to help a buddy who is trying to make a choice about a rifle for a 9-year old. (The youngster may not be ready yet though.)

You will notice that even a large B.C. change(0.100) will not make a really significant difference until you reach a very long way out there.

But, you may also find that a Lighter Weight Bullet(with a Lower B.C.), with it's higher Velocity "might" be a better choice for your particular Cartridge and Barrel length(the potential Velocity) than a Heavier(Higher B.C.) Bullet(at aLower Velocity). The External Ballistic Tables can quickly enlighten a person in this regard.

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Also, wouldn't that make my barrel last longer shooting the slower of the bullets? Or is it more tied to the pressures(which makes sense)?

Amount of Powder(Burn Duration), type of Powder, Pressure, Moly Coating, and rate of fire all have an effect on the barrel life.

So does the actual Bullet. Having a Bullet fit the Bore/Grooves properly is a significant issue, plus the actual Bullet material.

Not Cleaning a Barrel can destroy pristine accuracy quickly, but it also depends on the Environmental Conditions.

All that taken into consideration, some Barrels and Load Combinations can last a very long time or be ruined in a few hours.

Best of luck to you.

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But, you may also find that a Lighter Weight Bullet(with a Lower B.C.), with it's higher Velocity "might" be a better choice for your particular Cartridge and Barrel length(the potential Velocity) than a Heavier(Higher B.C.) Bullet(at aLower Velocity). The External Ballistic Tables can quickly enlighten a person in this regard.

Excellent input HC. I shoot a .300 WM in some steel and precision rifle matches. I use the 168 gr A-Max. The BC isn't anywhere close to as good as it can get with the .30 caliber choices but the barrel likes the bullet and is accurate. If your data is spot on, it's just a matter of dialing and playing the wind. I think the added velocity helps.

Use the bullet that is the most accurate in your rifle.

Look at the data on the Berger Hunting VLD bullets. They are high BC bullets made to expand for hunting. They are very long and most of them require fast twist barrels.

MY question is What's wrong with 2750fps??? With a 200gr bullet, its a helluva fine start toward killing something.
That's for regular bullets, I have no experience with the berger bullets.

I agree with what everyone else is saying. You aren't going to notice a significant difference in bullet drop before 400yrds. I don't choose my bullets based on BC, but if it's high I just consider it an added bonus. Spending time at the range shooting long distance is going to make a much bigger difference in the likely hood of making the shot when it counts.

Find two bullets you are considering and enter the data into a ballistics calculator on the web. I think you find less difference than you expect.

I shoot the bullet that my rifle likes the best.

I guess I'm old fashioned and know how to shoot....it's called holdover and sight adjustment.

It isn't drop I am worried about since I can compensate with my turrets. It is wind bucking, more energy and stability that I am after. I see your points about 300 yds not making much difference but I want to practice out to 700. At that distance it makes a good bit of difference, as you are already aware.

I shoot out to 1000 with the gun and bullet I posted earlier. It works fine. Like you say, drop can be compensated for with your turret. I hold off for wind in the game I'm playing. Just use a ballistics calculator found online, or a program on a PDA or iPhone (Bullet Flight by Knight's Armament like I run). I shoot a Creedmoor (6.5) at 2950 and a 300 WM at 3150. Just hold off what it says and it works. If you're just trying to shoot tight groups at long range, then yes, try to find a very accurate high BC bullet. Obviously a bullet with the highest BC you can find will be less effected by wind

RC,
Yes. I am after the best accuracy at long range. The 168 A-max have pretty darn good BCs for their size.

The polymer tips in the Nosler BT & Hornady A-Max projectiles won't be to CALL every shot if used for LR HP rifle shooting.
Holding off to compensate for conditions is guess work compared to putting DOPE on the rifle.

MRAM..

The BC I think is around .475 which is a far cry from the best BC in .30 choices. The 208 gr A-Max sports a BC of .648.

I settled on the 168 after trying to get the rifle to shoot the 190 gr Matchking....it didn't like it even though the twist rate is OK at 10. It shot all the 168's well.

I shoot the 139 gr Lapua in the 6.5 Creedmoor and it has a BC of .615. I honestly haven't compared the data but I don't see much difference between the two guns in windage. The Lapua is going slower but has a higher BC; the A-Max is going faster with a lower BC. If you measure the wind with a meter like I do, plug it in your program on the spot and tell it which angle it's coming from, it spits out the correct hold for windage just like it spits out the correct come up clicks for drop. This, of course, works when you put the correct values in for atmosphere, velocity, etc...

A Kestrel and a program run on a hand-held device is indespensable for in-the-field firing solutions.

Dans...

I realize in the F-Class and HP games that all dope is dialed including windage. I'm shooting the SRM at Whittington and the Precision Rifle matches at our gun club which are slanted to tactical. I don't know any competitor who dials wind. We all hold off. Everybody is using a scope with a reticle set up in MOA or Mils so that accurate holds for windage are possible. During a stage, winds change and you can change your hold point without chasing the turret around. The stages are timed and you don't have time to continually dial....

quote:

Originally posted by MRAMSAY10:
It isn't drop I am worried about since I can compensate with my turrets. It is wind bucking, more energy and stability that I am after. I see your points about 300 yds not making much difference but I want to practice out to 700. At that distance it makes a good bit of difference, as you are already aware.

Check balistic charts, but there just isn't that much benefit once you get upto 0.400BC. The diff between 0.400 & 0.600 isn't that great, even to 700yds. It's stil measured in inches, nit feet.

I only use premium bullets for hunting. As partitions and accubons and V Max

RCA,
I need to find a good ballistic program for in the field. What would you look at and include prices please?

Fred,
I might be looking at my ballistic program wrong, but I am seeing a pretty good difference in .400 to .600 when it comes to muzzle energy which is what I am after. I am using the calc on biggameinfo.com.

I use "bulletflight" by Knights Armament. You can run it on an iPhone. 30$

Crap, no I phone. Any other pocket sized apps?

My buddy runs one on a Dell PDA. I'm not sure of the name; something "firing solutions.". It's expensive. Just use Google; you'll find something.

Get an iPhone or an itouch! They're great and the program is at the apps store!

When I ran the ballistics on my 300 RUM I found the 185 VLD to have the least drop and deflection at the velocity I am shooting. Sure the heavier bullets had more energy but also had more drop. I ran alot of ballistics before I even ordered my barrel blank. I am shooting the 185's at 3382 fps with a 12 twist.

I don't even recommend shooting the VLD's less than 300 yds for accuracy because they may not have stabilized yet. I have shot several 3/4" groups at 300 yds with a 300 RUM and a 7MM RUM. I am shooting the 168 VLD in the 7MM. The VLD's work well on game!

God Bless, Louis

RCA,
the wife just got us new phone plans and phones, so I wish I could get an iphone, but can't. There has to be a cheap alternative.

YO,
I like the 185 VLDs also. They shoot great out of my 300wsm. I am more interested with more power when it gets there then the drop, based on numerous articles by successful long range guys (one being Darryl Holland). Even at 700 yds it is very pronounced in my gun the difference between a 210 vs 185 VLD. Like you said there is more drop, but there is a bunch more energy when it gets there.

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There has to be a cheap alternative.

None that I am aware of for on the spot, in the field solutions.

You'll just have to print tables from JBM and hang'em from your scope.

Run the numbers through a ballistic program- a 155 Nolser BTHP (BC ~.430) and a 175 SMK BTHP(.496) arrive at 600 yards at almost the exact moment, but of course the 155 starts out ~250 fps faster, while the 175 ends up loosing quite a bit less velocity.... Anyone really think a difference of .05 sec equals much wind drift? Both will hold the 10 ring at 600 in a +/- 5 mph breeze.

Start them off at the same MV, and of course the higher BC wins. But we don't do that, do we?

HP/F class or tactical- doping (reading wind speed, direction, light effect, temp/RH etc) and adding wind/elev either by cranking knobs or counting reticle mils is the same. Guessing and firing trial shots is not ideal.

There's no guessing when holding off for wind just like there's no guessing when dialing elevation.

You need a range finder and a wind meter or you are guessing for both.

There are more variables when judging wind. Is it the same at your location as it is at the target? Will it change speed or direction before you pull the trigger? Shooting a high BC bullet increases your chances. You have more margin for error with a big BC.

In the game I play, there's no sighters like in HP or F-Class. One shot per target and they all count as either a hit or a miss, so you better do it right the first time...A portable ballistic program is the only way to go if you want to be accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by MRAMSAY10:
RCA,
I need to find a good ballistic program for in the field. What would you look at and include prices please?

Fred,
I might be looking at my ballistic program wrong, but I am seeing a pretty good difference in .400 to .600 when it comes to muzzle energy which is what I am after. I am using the calc on biggameinfo.com.

Tough to find exact BC bullets for my Sierra program, but a 200gr/308 of 392BC @ 2800fps drops a just 11" more & has 480ft#s less enrgy than a 200gr 560BC bullet. I doubt any animal is going to tell the diff of +/-480ft#s. The bullets ability to do the work is more important to me at that range than the energy carried. If the bullet fails to expand & pencils through, the add'l. energy means even less. Paper numbers never tell the entire story.

Fred,
But why not shoot a higher BC bullet and have more stopping power if you can? You obviously don't so please fill me in on your logic. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by MRAMSAY10:
Fred,
But why not shoot a higher BC bullet and have more stopping power if you can? You obviously don't so please fill me in on your logic. Thanks.

While i appreciate what your looking to do here, you might want to look at a few points.

I believe what Fred is saying is that while you might get the heavier bullet there, chances are also good that it might not expand properly due to a possibly heavier jacket construction. Whereas for the actual velocities your going to be getting fro the WSM, the 185 will do what your looking to get done, and arrive with plenty of energy.

To take advantage of the heavier bullets, your going to need more powder than what the WSM will work well with. Once you seat one of those long bullets down into your short case you killing a lot of room that will be needed for slow burning powder to get the velocity your needing.

Mr. Holland is shooting mostly stuff that burns 95+ grains of powder per shot, and in longer barrels than 26" and he can get some big numbers from those big bullets.

Similar comparison, .257 Robers, and a 25-06. Load the 100gr bullets in either and there isn't a whole lot of difference, load the 120's however and the 25-06 will pull away considerably. Similar to the .308 and 30-06, shoot the 150's and they are pretty even, move up to the 180's or 200's and the '06 pulls ahead.

Now if you shooting a RUM, you can work some magic with the bigger bullets by utilizing the slower powders and getting the 210gr's velocity up around 3000 - 3100, or run the 185's at around 3300, or run the 165's somewhere in the 3450 range. Just depends on where you want to draw the line.

Like I said I can appreciate what your looking into, but you have to realize the parameters your working with and maximize them, rather than trying to compare it to the bigger class cases. In your situation, shooting a WSM or even the Win Mag, the 185'ish grain bullets will preform the best for your cartridge, both for velocity and energy over the bigger bullets, at the ranges your looking to shoot, at the maximum velocities your going to be able to safely obtain.

MRAM…

is this for a hunting or target load?

If it's for hunting, Most of your shots will be less than 400. With the 300 wsm I would try to shoot the 180 gr Accubond. If it's for hunting shots longer than 400, I would try to develop a load with a softer bullet like a BT or Gameking at 180 grains.

If it's for targets, I'd try to shoot the highest BC bullet the gun will accurately shoot; 200 gr Matchking, Berger, Lapua Scenar or A-Max

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Originally posted by MRAMSAY10:
Fred,
But why not shoot a higher BC bullet and have more stopping power if you can? You obviously don't so please fill me in on your logic. Thanks.

Mke/TX pretty much summed it up. The higher BC means little if the bullet doesn't expand. Often the higher BC nulelts are designed for paper & won;t do well on live targets at any range, much less 600yds. Personnaly, I see no reason to risk shots on game at ranges where you can not guarantee vital hits. Guessing is unacceptable. If you can range & dope wind & shoot well enough to deliver 8" max groups from field positions to 600yds, then you certainly want the bullet to deliver the performance. The energy #s just don't mean that much.

quote:

The bullets ability to do the work is more important to me at that range than the energy carried. If the bullet fails to expand & pencils through, the add'l. energy means even less.

I thought this pretty much explained it.

I'll have to disagree that a 300 WSM can't shoot heavy bullets. My Browning stalker can and does shoot the 220 sierra and with velocity and fair groups.

2686 fps with a .832 100 yd, 5 shot group. Powder used is R-19, 63.0.

Also, a lot of people are using matchkings at extreme ranges with very good expansion. They're made with a thinner jacket, they upset and expand well over 600 yds.

The guys over at longrangehunting are using them in .338 mag for extreme range kills. Say whatever you want about the ethics involved, they don't loose any animals they hit.

Here's a target I shot quite a while ago when playing with the 220 MK;

Make sure you have the right twist rate.