Okay....this is going to spill over into my post about the wrong primers I got for my 22-250's but first....

I have just a couple of thing left to purchase before I can start reloading. I was going to drop the money for a nice casing trimmer but was told that wouldn't probably be necessary for a few shots because my casings are one shot old and it will take a few more for them to grow. Listen guys....I realize that's a general statement and one would need to measure after each shot to make sure. My buddy's Dad, who has done quite a bit of reloading, says that the new brass he just bought was actually shorter that what the manual says the length should be (I think casing and not OAL). He said that after shooting, it will lengthen and then need to be trimmed. Someone told me I should keep it simple and stay away from the "kissing the lands" technique because I am new, but he explain how to check MY gun to see what the correct length should be by using an empty shell and a bullet. I know it might have an effect on PRESSURE, but if I'm starting light and working up....wouldn't I be able to detect that?

I'd just like to spend my money in other areas if I more that likely will not have to trim my shells for 2 or 3 reloads. What do you think?

Um, a lot to cover. For a start most/all unfired cases would be on the short side. After the first fireing they should be SHORTER, as the case should expand outwards to fill the chamber, therefore probably getting shorter.

You could probably shoot it forever with neck sizing without it getting any/much longer.

Full length sizing will lengthen the case every reload, and it wouldn't hurt to measure cases first up anyway and most like to trim to the same length even if a bit short. Cheap case length measures are available along with Verniers.

Cheap trimmers are also available from Lee, good enough for people to use all the time and some power the bits with a drill.

For beginers/hunters, "kissing the lands" is useless to hopeless, if it won't fit in the magazine Or if the bullet sticks in the rifling
and pulls out if ejected, with powder going everywhere. It's really a thing for target shooting mostly.

Factory brass usually comes already with different lengths. It just doesn't hurt to measure it after the first sizing (to be done before the first load) and cut it all to the same length. It just eliminates one potential source of variance that might damage precision.

just going to point out a couple things.
good Reloads are all about being consistent within a set of proven parameters.
New brass needs to be preped. the necks are out of round and as stated may be diffrent length which will affect bullet grip and inconsistent oal. the brass is the 1 most important thing in it is housed every thing else. you can get by a couple times by not trimming the brass. but always remember that each time you reload a batch of brass that inconsistent from case to case affect the accuracy of that batch.
Dave

You will "usually" get by with one reloading....then often it will need trimming to meet book specs. If you are on a budget get the lee trimmer..they work well and won't break the bank.

Well, my experience is a little different. I usually have to trim after the first firing. Now when I say I have to trim I mean that the Lee Trimmer actually takes some brass off. When you use the Lee trimmer all you have to do is stick the case length gauge down the case and spin the trimmer and sometimes it takes brass off and sometimes it doesn't. No measuring. The case length gauges are set .007" or so below the recommended trim length.

I would not bet on not having to trim after the 1st firing.

I normally measure 10 or so of a new lot of brass and rim the whole bunch to the lenght of the shortest one I find. This evens them up and squares any mouths that might be cut crooked. It is more obvious that new cases are not all the same in handgun brass then rife when you go to crimp them. You`ll find you don`t get a nice even crimp unles you have trimmed sometimes.

You are just starting, and likely loading for a limited amount of cartridges. I`d get a basic Lee trimer. It consists of a pilot, and cutter and a cases holder. They are cheap and work very well. I use one with my cordless drill for power and they a great job.
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1199...catalog/casecon.html

Did some sort of calipers come with your kit? A set of chinese ones can be bought for @$12.00 and you do kinda need them. I consider my case prep starts after I have fired the cases in my rifle for the first time. Then I trim them to a uniform length. If that's a bit shorter than the book sez it ought to be, it ain't gonna hurt nothing. In your case, I wouldn't worry about it for a while.
At the range, after you fire a round, eject it and take the next cartridge in line and see if the bullet will slide into the neck of the fired case. If it will, that case is not too long nor the neck too thick. Once you get the fundementals down, and get a caliper, you can start uniforming your brass.

The only reason I trim once-fired brass before it gets to long is to square it up. I've found that brass from some factory loads is terribly out of square. Sometimes to the point that a proper crimp cannot be applied. In your 22-250 this should not be a problem, since you should not need to crimp, but in my 375 H&H mag and 45-70 it's a big deal.

You will be able to get by for awhile without trimming, but accuracy will suffer.

Get a set of $12 calipers from cabela's and measure your brass and set the long ones off to the side until you start trimming.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman: .....At the range, after you fire a round, eject it and take the next cartridge in line and see if the bullet will slide into the neck of the fired case. If it will, that case is not too long nor the neck too thick.

Am I reading this correctly? By slipping a bullet into the mouth of a fired casing, you can tell if the case is too long or the neck is too thick?

If I am, could you please explain how this is done?

Jim

In response to to stillbeeman and trekker111's posts, I think we need to go back and look at the very basics of reloading.

First, rifle chambers are cut to a certain diameter, plus or minus a certain tolerance. Reloading (sizing) dies are cut to a slightly smaller diameter so that the reloaded case will easily fit into the rifle's chamber. When the cartridge is fired, the fired case expands to the diameter of the chamber. The inside diameter of the case mouth and neck has nothing to do with the length of the case or the thickness of the neck. Unless the rifle's chamber is unusually tight, an unfired bullet should slide easily into the neck of all fired cases.

This brings us to the other reason cases, both new and fired, are sized: to hold the bullet in the case. The case neck is sized slightly smaller that the bullet diameter, and that provides enough friction to hold the bullet in the case. Crimping the case mouth into a channelure in the bullet provides additional force sometimes needed to hold bullets in the case. Bullets without a channelure or crimping grove should not be crimped.

As hivelosity pointed out, accuracy depends on consistentsy and uniformity. As cases are resized, the case neck is stretched. This can affect accruacy, as cases with longer necks will apply more holding force on the bullets thus raising the pressure when the cartridge is fired. So we trim the sized cases to insure that they all have the same neck length to provide consistent holding force on the bullets. This is also true if some cases are trimmed shorter than other trimmed cases.

Case consistancy is usually more important for smaller calibers than it is for larger calibers. First, the relationship between the inconsistency to the case diameter is greater in smaller diameters than that same inconsistency would be in a larger diameter.

Next, we are usually looking for greater accuracy in the smaller calibers than we are in the larger calibers, ie, 2 MOA acccuracy would be good for an open sighted .375 H&H, but it would not be acceptable for a scoped .22-250.

It all depends on how accurate you want your reloads. For best accuracy, in any caliber, size them then trim every time you load them.

quote:

Originally posted by buffybr:
Unless the rifle's chamber is unusually tight, an unfired bullet should slide easily into the neck of all fired cases.

buffybr, (and pdhntr1)
The original post was mixing ideas and methods and I think some of us are getting confused. I hope buffybr doesn't mind me using his post to jog my memory re some of the subjects.
We are glossing over some ifs and maybes.

Case necks can be too thick, one example being necking down from a larger cal.
The idea of trying a projectile in the neck of a fired case would be too see if any excess length has tended to crimp the mouth of the neck. Sure, an arse about way to do it where measuring is simple. So re above quote, that is the check of the "should fit".

quote:

This brings us to the other reason cases, both new and fired, are sized: to hold the bullet in the case. The case neck is sized slightly smaller that the bullet diameter, Bullets without a channelure or crimping grove should not be crimped.

Boy another mouthfull. Bye the bye, I don't think I have ever seen a new case that wasn't tight enough to hold a projectile. I don't think I have ever seen one out-of-round so much a seated bullet wouldn't reshape it anyway.
Sure a non canallure bullet can be crimped, especially with the Lee factory crimp die.

quote:

As hivelosity pointed out, accuracy depends on consistentsy and uniformity. As cases are resized, the case neck is stretched. This can affect accruacy, as cases with longer necks will apply more holding force on the bullets thus raising the pressure when the cartridge is fired. It all depends on how accurate you want your reloads. For best accuracy, in any caliber, size them then trim every time you load them.

Sure, but as I understood things, accuracy depends on much more, starting with the rifle/barrel. With that being good, bedding etc.
we can start to worry about the loads.
Even now I think the choice of projectile,powder, ect. will have much more effect on accuracy than a minor varience of case length, esp with inside neck lube helping.

The case length was trimmed to make sure it wasn't too long and getting jammed into the front of the chamber. And even here we usually have a large safety margin of up around 20 thou, but don't count on it.

For accurate hunting loads, I can't see the sense in massive amounts of trimming the standard new cases to the shortest. Why not just batch them up? And where I change gradually when shooting. . . I never notice the difference.

And re raising pressure, case neck lengths would be the last thing I'd expect to have to worry about. As most of these questions are from stated beginers, I worry more about them concentrating on the basics, not worring about touching the lands, cases within a ten thou of some book suggestion, perfect flash holes, no burrs, etc. etc.

Heck, lets get them using the right powder/charge/projectile weight in a basic case for basic/acceptable accuracy for something for them to build on. There is going to be a lot of shooting just to get the best bullet/powder/charge about right.

But, my old Swift, any case,any primer, any suitable powder any decent projectile, look out pests.

I didn't read all of Buffybr and JAL's post but as you fire and resize a cartridge it grows since the brass becomes almost molten and flows forward during ignition. If allowed to grow untended, the cases can become so long that it will jam into the front of the chamber and pinch into the bullet. Not allowing it to release in a normal manner. This jacks your pressure up. If you can slide a bullet into the neck of the fired case, we know that hasn't happened. This, of course, is a remote possiblity with new brass.
Now then, as this brass flows, the neck not only gets longer, it gets thicker. So even if you keep a sharp eye on your case length and keep it trimmed to a proper length, it can grow thick enough to again pinch the bullet and not release it properly. Once again, this jacks your pressure up. And once again, this is a remote possibilty with new brass.
You seemed to be a bit concerned about case length and I was giving you a way to check on you cases without having to buy yet more thingies, or gizzies or "stuff".
Actually, it's a good habit to get into --checking the necks with a bullet--, it gives you something to do between shots, you can check for neck cracks (trash them)and if you find one that's a bit tight mark it with your handy magic marker for later scrutny when you get back to the shop.

For safety reasons it is also important to remember that a neck which is longer than secs will "pinch" the bullet when inserted into teh chamber, even more so when the chamber is tight and/or the barrel's starting cone (is that the right expression?) short.

For that reason I started to measure ALL cases, no matter if new or used.

Thanks Beeman for the explanation, however that method is not for me.

First of all, using your method, it would seem if the case mouth is deformed (by the lead/rifling) and won’t fit over another bullet, AFTER it has been fired, would mean the situation was present at the time of firing, which could become a serious problem, and is precisely what we are trying to avoid. IOW if the case was too long after firing, it was too long when chambered.

Also, fitting a fired case over a bullet is supposed to tell you if the thickness of the neck is excessive. I have yet to experience a case where the brass was too thick and needed to be turned from a standard chamber. What I have found when a bullet won’t fit into the mouth after firing, is the case neck needed to be annealed and everything is back to normal. This also helps to make neck tension on the bullet more uniform.

quote:

Originally posted by dubs22-250:
...and one would need to measure after each shot to make sure...

Don't ever forget that, Dubs.

Jim

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
but as you fire and resize a cartridge it grows since the brass becomes almost molten and flows forward during ignition.

Well, at least so far we haven't got into the insults of that 4page discussion nearby that started off rubbishing us amatures and then the "experts" started to disagree with each other.
Anyway from what I've gleaned from books, and my own measurements, the case doesn't almost melt, doesn't move forward on fireing, (except when pushed forward by the fireing pin strike) and can be fired many times without trimming, AS LONG AS the case is; 1. not too long to start with.
2. is only neck sized.

As I under stand it, as pressure builds the case starts to expand and grip the chamber at the neck first, expands outward from there, and streaches BACKWARDS against the bolt head to take up any headspace. The expansion to fill the chamber is what makes the case now SHORTER in length.

The case will get longer during F.L.Sizeing (if done) because the case is getting sqeezed IN again. This can be minimised by PARTIAL FLSizing, so that it only just fits the chamber.

I do not know just what part of the PFLS'ed case hits the chamber first. Most USA posters on AR seem to think it would be the sholder. I wouldn't be supprised if it was the pressure ring area just up from the solid case head. Maybe it depends?

Anyway, I recomend measuring each case every reload. I then batch them roughly with the ones needing trimming nearest the trimmer. As the trimmer stops cutting, I stop trying. I only trim about 3thou under recomended max. as I don't particularly enjoy doing it. Also makes deburring and chamfering easer.

Also I note any unusual "feel" on chambering, or extraction and look into the reason.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...the Lee trimmer ...

+1 The Lee Trimer is an excellent design and a great bargain.

Some of the Lathe Style Trimmers produce widely varying Case Length due to the way they grasp the Case. Of course they do make a fine mess on the Bench, if that interests anyone, where the Lee can be held directly above a Trash Can.

But you can get accessories for the Lathe Style so you can Turn Necks. When I WASTED a lot of time Turning Necks, I found there are much better tools to do it with anyhow.

Richard Lee did a great job on the Case Trimmer.

Best of luck to you.

Pdhntr1, please explain to me how annealing a case will make the neck of a case thinner? As the brass flows forward, the neck gets longer AND THICKER. How does annealing thin the neck?

The case doesn't suddenly impinge into the leade, nor does it suddenly become too thick to chamber. It is a gradual thing and if neither condition exist, then it is not to worry. That neither situation exists can be checked by the method I outlined. The point of my post(s) was to reassure Dub that safe, good ammo could be loaded without rushing out to buy all of the silly, often un-needed, anal crap some people scriek about.

FYI, I don't anneal necks. By the time you would need to anneal a neck, you would have trimmed enough material from the case that insepid case failure may be an issure. By any road, 22-250 brass is plentiful enough that I'd rather be shooting than annealing.

Dubs,

If your looking for the simple answer, it is this: buy the Lee case trimmer AND buy a camphering tool to remove the burrs from trimming the case. Cost should be minimal for both tools together ($10-$15). That way you will KNOW that your cases are the correct length and you will avoid a lot of headaches.

Consider this, you have bought all the other gear (presses, dies, powder, primers, scale, etc), it would be a shame to render it worthless because you didn't want to spend $10 to do it right.

quote:

Originally posted by DUK:
Factory brass usually comes already with different lengths. It just doesn't hurt to measure it after the first sizing (to be done before the first load) and cut it all to the same length. It just eliminates one potential source of variance that might damage precision.

+1