I am always looking for something that makes reloading faster and better. I read here about the Lee collet sizing dies. I found that they really work, and was generally satisfied with them. I have had no real problems with functioning, and accuracy has been good.

I had wanted a runout gage and a good friend of mine is a mad machinist. He loves making metal chips and builds all kinds of black powder pistols. His current project is a target revolver in 25 caliber. Anyway, he suggested that we make a runout gage from scratch since he has an extra dial caliper around.

Today, we did it. It is very simple, but really slick. An elegant solution! Well, the first thing you do when you have a new toy is use it, right. I just finishing running most every piece of loaded ammo I have through this thing.

I have been reloading for some time, and have pretty good technique, and about 10 of 50 rounds loaded with standard dies had less than three thousands runout (that is from max to minimum). Another 10 would have between 3 and 5 thousands. But the other 30 pieces ran from 6-10, most about six or seven.

On those rounds loaded with the Lee collet dies, the run out was never over 3 and many were .5 to 1.5. It was really impressive. When you add to this that you don't have to lube, it makes these dies really nice.

I have them in 308, 3006, and 300HH. I may have to break down and have them build me one in 30-338. They are really slick. And they do what they say the do. Ku-dude

It looks like I'm gonna have to give the Lee collet dies a whirl. I have been chasing the runout gremlin with my .35 Whelen brass ever since I got that damn RCBS Case Master Gauge!

Naw TXPO you need to spend 100 dollars on the Redding bushing dies which will do the same job! They're real shiny too!

Just kidding. If the Lee Collets are properly adjusted and used, you really can't beat them...

Dan

Handloads for hunting rifles should be full length sized. This is for reliable functioning which trumps runout for normal applications.

Unless the handloads are really light the neck only die will result in hard chambering, extraction and bolt lift.

Also many chambers are not aligned with the bore all that well. Add that to the functioning requirement and this is why the national champion big bore shooter FL sizes his match brass and why I do also.

I have a few of the Lee neck crimp dies and they do work well for what they do and are not expensive either. So go ahead and play with them.

I gave up on fooling around with odd ball reloading techniques once I have a load that stays sighted in for the first shot out of hunting rifles.

The main cause of runout in my opinion is the variable thickness as measured around the neck. If the thickness varies then the subsequent sizing will induce runout in the neck which will transfer to the bullet.

So this leads to selecting brass, neck turning or modifing dies and expanding buttons. This is the way to solve the cause of the problem and not to create another.

99,

I agree that some damned fine cartridges can be turned out in conventional FL dies. All of my .243's are sized with my "lucky" RCBS FL dies. I say "lucky" because an advocate of the Redding bushing dies once told me that if I was getting <.002" of runout from standard RCBS dies I had a "lucky" set. Maybe so... But I'm more inclined to believe that it was a simple matter of "tuning" the die to be straight with the ram, and "tuning" the expander to center, as described here before by Don Krakenberger. I tried it, and it works.

I shoot my H&R Ultra .223 single shot quite a bit, and those cartridges must be FL sized as well--otherwise they will not reliably extract.

I have not as of yet taken up neck turning. My current practice is to discard the brass or relegate it to the sighter/fouler ranks if it won't go straight for me. I suppose if I were shooting unconventional chamerings, I would be less inclined to discard brass. But .223, .243, 6.5 x 55, .270 win, .308, and 30-06 pretty much sizes up my whole repertoire and all of that brass is relatively cheap.

Dan

I used to buy that "must f/l size" thing, until I took my 7mag hunting one time. I managed to shove a piece of wood in with the shell on a follow up shot: funny looking case when it came out. Modern bolts have so much force when camming the case into the chamber, I can't see that FL sizing would make enough difference when chambering with a little debris. JMO, Dutch.

I've been an advocate of the Lee Collet neck die for a while now. These dies make really straight ammo. In fact, I don't measure for concentricity much any more because I know the ammo I make with this die is going to be straight. Since I started using the collet die, my Redding bushing dies have been collecting dust. Not having to lube the cases is an added bonus.

As far as hunting with neck sized brass is concerned, well, I can only say that I haven't had any problems with it. I hunt only with bolt actions, however. If I hunted with an autoloader, lever action or whatever, I'd full length size.

What a super invention!

Quoted from Metallic Cartridge Reloading:

"Lee's Collet Die can provide world-class accuracy."

"... Lee's Collet and mandrel-style neck-sizing die. This die has several advantages. First, because it requires absolutely no lubrication, it eliminates concerns about properly lubricating and degreasing cases. Second, it leaves the body of the case completely unaltered; assuming your gun's chamber is square and true, the cases will align and center in the chamber as perfectly as is possible. Third, this system works the case the least of any die system on the market; there is almost no pulling or pushing on the neck as the collet squeezes it to the proper size to hold a bullet. It is even possible that Lee's Collet Die might straighten bent case necks. For this reason, Lee recommends sizing the case, withdrawing it from the die, then rotating it 180 degrees and sizing again.

Arbor press neck-sizing dies are another option...however, for loads used in most sporting rifles, these dies offer no obvious advantage over Lee's inexpensive Collet Die."

I sent them two fired unsized cases from my 338-06 AI and they made a collet die for me. When I sent in the two cases for my 223 Rem AI they returned them and the extra money, saying that their standard 223 Rem die would work just fine.

Collet dies really do work as advertized. Not so with some of their other products. IMHO

[ 02-17-2003, 22:05: Message edited by: onefunzr2 ]

Ok I agree with S99 sort of. Neck sizing aint always the thing to do. Like G788, I shoot a NEF/HR also some TCs for which I must FL or partial FL...here is a group from a $90 barrel with ammo loaded using $12 RGB Lee dies...sorry about the 82 yd deal..it was before I had my 100yd range setup.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/pb922492b8fcaf63875696e56ea83e1dd/fca40bec.jpg
The point being is that you dont have to spend a lot to get decent results.
Dave

[ 02-18-2003, 02:11: Message edited by: Dave Jenkins ]

Do those of you who have been getting minimal runout using the Lee collet neck dies use any special technique (such as, for example, using the neck die once on a case, then turning the case and neck-sizing once more)? Or have you just been putting the case in the press and applying the neck die once?

I don't think I ever fiddled w/ doing it twice w/ the Collet dies... I was tickled w/ 1-2 thou runout after previously having 4-6 thou runout (before I realized I needed to 'double-pump' stuff thru the bushing die).

Monte

Definitely size it twice.I like to turn the case 45 degrees on the second sizing.

It`s hard to get consistent neck tension with the collet die.No problem and I don`t worry about it because for $9 the Factory Crimp Die eliminates the problem easily in the last step of this method.

The bullet seating die that comes with the collet set bottoms out at full stroke on the shellholder and works REAL well in terms of repeatability of .001" if the operator does his part.This die has no shoulder built in to it for crimping,that`s why it works so well....it bottoms out on the shellholder.Gentle presure is all you need to "kiss" the shellholder.

When using the FC Die I just "snug" the bullet in place with a moderate pressure.Too much and the die will make a cannelure in your bullet.

The collet die and the crimp die goes together like bread+butter in my opinion.

As a side note.Polishing down the mandrel in the collet die will make a tighter press fit.However,if you do that, the bullet will size the case neck resulting in runout....the main reason we use this die anyway.

That is why I use the collet die + crimp die as a team.The die takes care of the bullet aligned with the axis of the bore,brass stretching, and headspace issues.The crimp die takes care of neck tension and bullet pull issues.

I use all Lee collet dies in my hunting rifles (223,30-06,300wm) and all shoot, chamber, etc just fine. I just set them to the instructions.

A couple of follow up observations:

Almost all of the rifles for which I reload are custom rifles in which the chambers have been bored concentric with the bore and the barrel trued to the action, and, hence, squared to the bolt face. In sum, the once fired cases are pressure formed "square." If I can resize them and get the bullet in them without screwing 'em up, I'm in pretty good shape.

Although the chambers are tight, I have experienced no difficulty in chambering these rounds for general hunting purposes. (We are not talking about my dangerous game rifles here for which I use factory loads or a different approach entirely.)

I run every round through the action before its boxed for a hunting trip regardless of origin.

I found the slip fit of the unaltered mandrel too loose, and did not have crimping dies in all the calibers. I turned the mandrel in my electric drill holding in against some fine crocus cloth and took off an unmeasured amount, not much, which seats the bullets tight enough to chamber reliably without pushing the bullets back into the case. Although, to be honest I did not measure the run out before I polished the mandrel, I cannot complain about the runout after having polished the mandrel.

I try and remember to turn the case about a third and hit it again. I think this helps "average" out things, and forgetting to do so may be the explanation for the occassional .002 measurement. (It is hell to get old and soft in the head!)

I don't know where one measures the run out properly, but I measure it just forward of the neck. I figure if the bullet is OK there, the neck is OK too; and besides, the bullet is what I am worried about.

I must call Lee and see if they have a "cheap" fix for the 30-338. I looked at all the one I have, I tried to puzzel out which combination of collets and die bodies would work on a 7mm length case and 308 neck. Lee wants an unseemly amount for a custom die compared with some of their other work.

If you haven't tried these dies, and I hadn't until someone here sang their praises, you really ought to. You can buy them mail order and they are cheap compared to comparators. Ku-dude

PS: I think that the run out in my non-custom rifles is greater even when using these dies than with my custom rifles. I think that it may be necessary to put a mark on them when loading and firing them and index on that mark when resizing them to "allow" for lack of concentricity in the chamber. k-d

This business about the undersize mandrels is interesting. In many of the other threads dealing with Lee Collet dies on this forum, undersize mandrels (whether factory or home produced) are mentioned as the cure for the apparent common affliction of too little bullet grip. It is the first time I hear a reference to an undersize mandrel causing (additional) runout.

Opinions, please?!?

- mike

I'll toss a couple of things out, then.

The more you move things, the larger the probability of not moving everything equally. Smaller mandrel = more movement.

"home" reductions in the mandrel might not be concentric.

FWIW, Dutch.

The mandrels on my collet dies have been polished down by .001" and I rarely if ever have runout more than .002". I size twice with this die, rotating about 45 degrees as others do and I use Forster Ultra seater dies.