Hello folks. I've been lurking here for some time and finally joined! I love the fact that I can go through pages of posts and still be in the current month!! Anyway.. the folks at my sportsmans club got me hooked on steel shoots. No prizes.. just for fun and I love it! I've noticed that usually the fastest shooters are all using reduced loads. Not just min. loads but below the recommended starting amounts. I've read that pressures can greatly increase going below the recommended starting levels and I'm curious if these folks are just, really brave, really careless, or have they found some info that I haven't read yet. I should also mention that it seems to be just the revolver shooters using the reduced loads. I'm curious if data has been published about reduced load pressures. I find it hard to believe that these folks would knowingly use unsafe loads on a regular basis but the reloading manuals seem to say "don't do it". I've also noticed that muzzle flip and recovery time is greatly reduced using these reduced loads but at what cost. One fellow carries a short stick to knock out any squibs he may have. I'd love to start down the reduced load path but I can't seem the get myself to go outside the min to max levels recommended in the manuals.

Where does one start?

Thanks
Rick

The warnings you've read are with merit, but remember that they are aimed at the slow burning powders in particular. The phenomena known as detonation has occured with reduced charges of slow burning powder, but attempts to reproduce it in a laboratory enviroment have been mostly unsuccessful to my knowledge.
Regardless, all smokeless powders have a pressure window in which they work best and burning said powders outside those parameters may cause problems as simple as excessive soot, or more complex, like detonation.
My experience with reduced loads in 38/357 usually revolve around wadcutters and 2.7 grains of Bullseye. That's roughly 2,590 rounds per pound of powder. Now there's economy!
Isn't much of an answer I know, but I tried.

Rick, Welcome to Accurate reloading!

You are showing good judgement in avoiding the below minimum charges. If you lodge a bullet and in the heat of the moment fire another one on top of it, the least that will happen is to buldge a barrel. The worst, well we won't go there... However if you must, take a minimum load and reduce it by 1/10 grain increments till you begin to worry. Also use the lightest weight bullets for caliber in this pursuit. All an all a refreshing concept when most reloaders are looking to see how far over Max we can go. Once again welcome and good luck.

Also, stick with lead. I found out that the primer alone will push a soft lead 158 grain SWC to the target. I was wondering why I started hitting 2-3 feet low at 10 paces... no powder in the cases.

A half grain error at 10 grains of powder it not usually a big deal, a half grain at 2.7 grains is a big deal. Be careful, but have fun!

I guess I should have mentioned what I'm shooting now. I'm using a S&W 686+ with 125gr. lead behind 3.0gr. of 231. I started out thinking I should learn to shoot with +p loads (just in case) and was laughed off the range. I reduced to a min. load and greatly improved my times and accuracy. Buckshot mentioned the sooting. It's terrible with the 231 so I switched to Titegroup. Seems the cowboy folks like it for reduced loads. Sooting isn't near as bad but I'm still nervous about going below the recommended starting load. I've read a little about the detonation , squibs and the high pressures associated with reduced loads. Maybe I need to re-think this. Maybe instead of looking for a "magic light load" to help me shoot better I should concentrate on the basics, stance, trigger control, grip etc.. Maybe....just maybe the problem is me!

Thanks Buchshot, 308Sako and CDH.

ps, there is a point where going slower isn't going to reduce your recoil much. If you are shooting a 125gr bullet @ 600fps, going to 500fps won't really change your times. I shot CAS for years (200gr @ 650fps) & realized that. Dropping bullet weight is the first thing & you've done that. Stick to loads that are giving you at least 600fps especially shooting steel. Go too slow & they start bouncing back! You could try dropping to a 100gr bullet @ the same speed, but really, recoil is almost nothing now, just put in more trigger time.

Pages 116 and 117 of the book "NRA Handloading" explain developing "gallery" loads for shooting .38 revolvers in one's basement. The article expressly says to use lead alloy bullets, wadcutters specifically, and says to take the minimum load of Bullseye from a loading manual, and cut it in half, seating the bullet flush.

Load and shoot ONE ROUND. Continue to cut the previous powder charge in half, loading and shooting ONE ROUND until you stick a bullet in the barrel. When the first bullet sticks, take a brass rod and a hammer, and drive the bullet back into the case, remove the case, and check the firearm to make sure the barrel is clear.

Once the first bullet sticks, you are well on the way to a minimum load. The next load is loaded halfway between the first load that stuck and the last one that did not, and the process is repeated. When the loads are only a few tenths of a grain apart, one may begin to load ten rounds and shoot them, making sure all ten clear the barrel. Once a reliable load is developed, the charge is upped a couple of tenths of a grain, for a safety margin in regular use.

The article also recommends orienting the powder in the cases by holding the loaded firearm barrel up before firing.

The final developed load for a 2" Model 60 and the H&G #50 bevel-based wadcutter was .75 grains of Bullseye, for a mv of 195 fps and 12.3 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.

I cannot either recommend or disclaim this information, I simply am putting it into the thread as "grist for the mill". If you choose to try this, please use all proper precautions, and it might be a good eye to have a second set of eyes, ears and another brain around just for safety's sake.

As an aside note, since you are using a wheel gun... try to not load every chamber in the cylinder and spin it while closing. Yes without looking. Now you will not know when she will and when she won't. This will help your shooting stay honest. Have fun and be careful.

I have found P38 to burn clean with reduced loads. The bullet may stick in the barrel at speeds below 500 fps or so.
Good luck1

Rick, the Meister Bullet 105gr. "Rattlers" look like they might work well for what you have in mind.

I would also recommend concentrating on a light "accurate" load vs. an absolute "minimum" load.

To get the most velocity from primer only loads, seat deep.

quote:

Originally posted by pshooter:
.. Maybe instead of looking for a "magic light load" to help me shoot better I should concentrate on the basics, stance, trigger control, grip etc.. Maybe....just maybe the problem is me!...

Hey pshooter, When ever I've not shot a handgun in a month or so, the problem is always me. Just takes a bunch of Trigger Time to maintain my handgunning ability.

Rather than go lower with your Load, have you considered getting a 22 Rimfire Revolver?

Since S&W is once again under the control of people who actually understand firearms, they should be making one somewhat similar to your 686. If not, I know Ruger does.
---

For the reasons mentioned about having a slug "stick" in the barrel, I'm not a real fan of going too low.

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
As an aside note, since you are using a wheel gun... try to not load every chamber in the cylinder and spin it while closing. Yes without looking. Now you will not know when she will and when she won't. This will help your shooting stay honest. Have fun and be careful.

Thanks! I was also told to rest a dime on top of the barrel (empty cylinders of course) and practice trigger pull until I could do it without dropping the dime. Trouble is the action and trigger are so nice that this is way to easy. I started using a quarter and that makes it a little more difficult.

Hawkins. I'll try some of the p38.

DaMan. Thanks for the tip. I didn't know about the 105 grain. I will try that one.

Tnekkcc. Primer only!! This one scares me....but for some reason I can't explain it sounds interesting.

Hot Core. I have a Ruger Mark II target/competition. It's almost to easy.

Doubless. Thanks! I will try and find the handbook. Shooting in the basement! Someone get a frying pan cause I'm hooked!

[QUOTE]ps, there is a point where going slower isn't going to reduce your recoil much. If you are shooting a 125gr bullet @ 600fps, going to 500fps won't really change your times. I shot CAS for years (200gr @ 650fps) & realized that. Dropping bullet weight is the first thing & you've done that. Stick to loads that are giving you at least 600fps especially shooting steel. Go too slow & they start bouncing back! You could try dropping to a 100gr bullet @ the same speed, but really, recoil is almost nothing now, just put in more trigger time.[QUOTE]

fredj338. I don't own a crono yet so I'm not sure of the velocities but I think your hit the nail on the head!
Magic loads won't make up for lack of talent.

Thanks to all for the tips. I seem to have sidetracked the thread from loading to shooting. SORRY!