I have two rifles right now that I have a sweet spot about 10 percent below max. Once I get to max my groups really open up. MAx but still at sane limits. I do not hotrod, but I want to make the guns perform as intended. So does my next move go faster or slower on the burn rate chart. Me thinks slower is the way to go.

Caliber? Rifle?

10% below max doesn't really tell us much. You could have that situation with the slowest or fastest powder.

I normally look to the slowest powder that will allow me to use close to 100% of the net case capacity at close to maximum load.

While I have had "best groups" with a lot of empty space in the case, normally a full case works best for me.

There seems to be and advantage to me also to have the case void of air space. The faster powders leave a lot of space.

As Seafire points out to me, the load books emphasize slow powders, neglecting many good possible loads with faster powders.

The same velocity load with fast powders has some advantages:
1) Less noise
2) Less recoil
3) Less cost

But has the disadvantages of:
1) More Pressure
2) More danger of wrong powder charge

An interesting thought on "space in the case"; some of the Blue dot loads give excellent repeatability at reduced velocities. There may be a rule of thumb on this subject but I'm not sure anymore what that is. I think that sweet spots are where you find them for the individual rifle.

A resent happenstance ocurred while testing DP 85 and DP 86. Both are slow burning powders. We used these powders in at least 10 maybe 12 rifles, maybe more. All showed repeatability improvement , some much more than others. One event was when my shooting buddy used the DP86 in his .300 Win. that had never shot MOA no matter what. With a case full of DP86 behind a 110 grain bullet,of all things, the rifle turned in a 7 shot group in much less than an inch.Whatever works I guess. roger

Like ramrod, I often go for the slower powders that fill the case or even slightly compress. Often this give the smallest vel. spread which often, but not always, gives better accuracy @ slightly lower pressures too.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
10% below max doesn't really tell us much. You could have that situation with the slowest or fastest powder.

I normally look to the slowest powder that will allow me to use close to 100% of the net case capacity at close to maximum load.

While I have had "best groups" with a lot of empty space in the case, normally a full case works best for me.

The more I read of Ramrod's posts the more he seems to rank with a few others as the best we got!....I agree completely with this post

except for one little detail.....10% loss of velocity is too much for me.....why accept .308 Winchester velocity from your 300 WSM?

Here's the way I see it.....let the groups open some.....You didn't say what groups you're getting but for those that insist on 1/2" groups fromn their hunting rifle and a loss of X% velocity I'd argue that they're far better off reaching the realistic velocity of the cartridge/barrel they have and hunt with a 1.25" group....and no...I'm not equating velocity with accuracy...they're entirely separate items....

All I'm saying is that if I went to the realistic potential of the cartridge and had to suffer the loss of 1/2" of accuracy It just might be a good trade off......it depends on where you're starting from!

quote:

except for one little detail.....10% loss of velocity is too much for me.....why accept .308 Winchester velocity from your 300 WSM?

Vapodog If I led you to believe I would normally accept 10% below max velocity as my load of choice that is far from true. I was just saying that I've had powders that gave their best velocity at 10% under max. If that is the case I normally look for a different powder can or bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:
Vapodog If I led you to believe I would normally accept 10% below max velocity as my load of choice that is far from true. I was just saying that I've had powders that gave their best velocity at 10% under max. If that is the case I normally look for a different powder can or bullet.

Yes, I knew that.,....I seriously doubt many of us would accept a hunting rifle 10% off it's feed. Regardless of the accuracy.....now giving up 100'/sec is another story!

quote:

giving up 100'/sec is another story

Now that I've done numerous times when all else has failed.

One is a 17 Wildcat. Max is 23.3 grains of Benchmark. 22.2 grains is bearly a good F/F load, but it shoots upper twos to low threes. At max is is more like an inch, seating depth and bullet do not change anything to even factor in I have moved stuff around bullet in out changed primers and bullets. Nothing, few tenths up or down. I have alot of space in the case. 85% full maybe. Varget should be a full case, next on the list The other is my 338-06AI. I beleive 62grains of IMR4350 is max and compressed. at 54gr It will agg an honest 1/2 in. I am not trying to make a 30-06 into a 300Weatherby. I just want get use of what is there. I have given up 100fps to chop a 1/2 off no big deal. These loads are low. The guns can do it accuracy wise. I am going to try another powder in both. Just wondering if Up or down is better in this case. The price of componets has gotten nuts. I left the details out so that no one would think I was looking for the magic load. Just looking for the kinda rule of thumb when this happens. I am glad to see some of the board gurus jumped on this one. Both guns are very huntable at max, just trying to improve what I have while the is nothing to blow holes into but paper, and to get some more knowledge while I am at it.


Note both using formed brass, not during firefroming.

Can't help you on the 17.

You didn't say what you were shooting in the 338-06 but assuming 225gr I would call 62 Max. MOst of my experience is with my 340PDK. Basically a 338 Gibbs+ 2 grs. I have also done some testing with the 338-06 & AI.I was using 225s and 210s. I have switched to the 200gr accubond. What I found was I got better accuracy and velocity with a touch faster powder. Like RL15, 4064 and H414. I've usually found 4064 worked better than 4320.

Currently using RL15 and the 200Accubond.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


The more I read of Ramrod's posts the more he seems to rank with a few others as the best we got!....I agree completely with this post

And you should certainly include yourself in that category, as well, Vapo.

Your knowledge of all things shooting related and your patient responses to those less knowledgeable than yourself continue to amaze me.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


The more I read of Ramrod's posts the more he seems to rank with a few others as the best we got!....I agree completely with this post


And you should certainly include yourself in that category, as well, Vapo.

Your knowledge of all things shooting related and your patient responses to those less knowledgeable than yourself continue to amaze me.

The orginal comment left me speechless. I just wish I could have expressed my feeling as well as Toadhead.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


The more I read of Ramrod's posts the more he seems to rank with a few others as the best we got!....I agree completely with this post


And you should certainly include yourself in that category, as well, Vapo.

Your knowledge of all things shooting related and your patient responses to those less knowledgeable than yourself continue to amaze me.

The orginal comment left me speechless. I just wish I could have expressed my feeling as well as Toadhead.

Very kind words fellas....and thank you very much.....I think we owe it to others to point out excellence.....we have too many folks that want to attack and that hurts the forums.

When we notice folks posting from good backgrounds and with sincere appreciation of the others we need to say so...it makes for a better forum.....If you have read Stonecreeks posts, he's another excellent poster.

We can disagree respectfully but it seems some folks just hit the nail dead center time after time and don't post if they don't have good information.

Bartsche is another good poster....now I'm in trouble as I'll miss a lot of them....sorry

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:


The more I read of Ramrod's posts the more he seems to rank with a few others as the best we got!....I agree completely with this post


And you should certainly include yourself in that category, as well, Vapo.

Your knowledge of all things shooting related and your patient responses to those less knowledgeable than yourself continue to amaze me.

The orginal comment left me speechless. I just wish I could have expressed my feeling as well as Toadhead.

Very kind words fellas....and thank you very much.....I think we owe it to others to point out excellence.....we have too many folks that want to attack and that hurts the forums.

When we notice folks posting from good backgrounds and with sincere appreciation of the others we need to say so...it makes for a better forum.....If you have read Stonecreeks posts, he's another excellent poster.

We can disagree respectfully but it seems some folks just hit the nail dead center time after time and don't post if they don't have good information.

Bartsche is another good poster....now I'm in trouble as I'll miss a lot of them....sorry

And that is why we respect you so much!!!!

EXCELLENT post!


Carry on!