If you take two hand loads, one with an extruded powder and one with a spherical powder of similar burn rate loaded with a bullet of the same weight to about the same velocity, is there something about the spherical powders that seem to generate more felt recoil? Maybe it's just in my head but lately, I am thinking that my spherical powders "kick" a bit more. Does that make any sense. Common sense tells me if you push the same amount of ejecta to about the same velocity, recoil should be roughly the the same unless there is something about the burning characteristics that might cause a difference?

Dave

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is there something about the spherical powders that seem to generate more felt recoil?

I see no reason for it at all!

Vapo:

PM sent.

Dave

quote:

I am thinking that my spherical powders "kick" a bit more. Does that make any sense.

Not to me.

Extruded powders are generally double base, and sphericals are single base. (Or vice versa.)

"Burn rate" may affect perceived recoil. I just learned that the weight of the powder in the load affects recoil. I would have not expected that. But it makes sense -- You're pushing the weight of the load down the bore.

Or it just might be all in your head.

I don't know about spherical powders but I have experienced this phenomena with using different bullets with the same powder. Lighter bullets would 'kick' more than heavier ones even though the momentum of the heavier bullet was higher. Some powders seem to 'push' rather than 'kick'. I have had it when a cirtain load which worked quite well would heat the barrel and muzzle device at a phenomenal rate - 22 hornet - but increasing the powder charge one more increment caused the barrel and can to stay cool. The muzzle crack was sharper and velocity went up. Remember that velocity is a function of the mean pressure. If peak pressure is reached quicker the felt recoil will be greater.

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Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
Extruded powders are generally double base, and sphericals are single base. (Or vice versa.)


Or it just might be all in your head.

You have it bass ackwards. The ball powder is the double base and most extruded are single base.

I don't think it's in his head either. many years back, I bought a Remington 660 in .308 Win. While trying several powders, IMR 4895 and 4064 and H-335 which looked promising, the load with H-335 seemed to kick the holy living snot out of me while the other two powders had what seemed to be more normal recoil. My kids got me a set of those earphone hearing protectors and damned if the kick from H-335 didn't literally go away. The H-35 load was the most accurate though so I stuck with it. Lots of fun shooting it at night where one could see the flash from the muzzle. What I finally figured out was the gun was not kicking all that badbut the extremely sharp muzzle blast made it seem like it did kick harder. FWIW, trying that load along with loads from the other two powders while wearing that hearing protection, the H-335 load still seemed to push back a little harder. I certainly don't think it was in my head.
For splits and grins, I was out shooting with a buddy years back when I still lived in Nevada and as I recall it was mid August at about 12 noon. We were shooting my 660 and the Remington 600 Mohawk I'd given him for his 17th birthday. We were using the H-335 load and the balls of fire that came out the muzzle of those two rifles was something to behold.
FWIW, it's beensomething like 30 years since I gave him that rifle and he still hunts with it even though it looks like it's been through every war in history and lost. Looks like hell on the outside but the bore is as shiny as a brand new dime.
Gues what I was truing to get at is maybe the doulbe based powder like H-35 have a sharper report which could make one think the recoil was greater. Ya think?
Paul B.

you are pushing more weight of powder down the bbl.

http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

Spherical powders are more difficult to ignite as a general rule but burn faster there for making a Cracking

or sharp penetrating noise , while extruded powders are more readily ignited ( but because of the Bulk

or quantity of the loading usually require Magnum primers , they also Make Booming noises

especially the slower the Burn rate of the powder ) . The pressure curves can make perceived recoil

seem more but in reality it's so slight you never know the differences between Spherical or extruded !.

Recoil is charge and weight of projectile as well as weight of gun it's fired from . It also depends on

spent gas exhaust venting , such as with a muzzle brake .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...n_of_linear_momentum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil

spherica has more flash and boom. http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/...02/mccord.htm#table1

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
If you take two hand loads, one with an extruded powder and one with a spherical powder of similar burn rate loaded with a bullet of the same weight to about the same velocity, is there something about the spherical powders that seem to generate more felt recoil? Maybe it's just in my head but lately, I am thinking that my spherical powders "kick" a bit more. Does that make any sense. Common sense tells me if you push the same amount of ejecta to about the same velocity, recoil should be roughly the the same unless there is something about the burning characteristics that might cause a difference?

Dave

Have you checked the velocity of both loads?

You might find that the one has a higher velocity.

Testing loads, I have noticed that one reaches a point, where even a couple of grains of powdr can produce noticeably more recoild.

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Testing loads, I have noticed that one reaches a point, where even a couple of grains of powdr can produce noticeably more recoild.

Ahh.. yes! That I have noticed too. Primer flattening was a little more noticeable and velocity a bit higher. That rifle cut my forehead a few times. Drop the powder charge a little or use a slower powder and the recoil becomes a push.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Maybe it's just in my head but lately, I am thinking that my spherical powders "kick" a bit more. Does that make any sense. Common sense tells me if you push the same amount of ejecta to about the same velocity, recoil should be roughly the the same unless there is something about the burning characteristics that might cause a difference?

Dave

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Recoil is described as the rearward movement of a firearm after the firing pin strikes the primer. Recoil and all aspects of it are fairly subjective in that shooters come in all shapes and sizes and have differing opinions concerning recoil effect. In addition, firearm actions and a shooter's method of mounting the gun makes appreciable differences in "felt" recoil.

Perceived recoil, what the shooter feels, is a highly subjective matter.
Note that nothing in the recoil equation has ever been modified because of a certain smokeless gunpowder's shape or chemistry.

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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction; that is one of the physical laws of our universe. This means that the momentum of a rifle's reaction will exactly equal the momentum of the bullet and powder gasses ejected from the barrel. In the shooting sports we call that reaction recoil or "kick." It can be measured or computed empirically.

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For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction; that is one of the physical laws of our universe. This means that the momentum of a rifle's reaction will exactly equal the momentum of the bullet and powder gasses ejected from the barrel.

Not exactly - there is a small detail in the equation that is missing. The jet effect of the ejecta!

Felt recoil is what we are discussing here and this can vary without changing the final momentum of the recoiling gun. To give an illustration or this effect, consider what the momentum of the bullet does on impact and compare that to the identical momentum of the gun on ones shoulder. What we are talking of is the rate of transfer of momentum.

Spherical powders tend to produce a large fireball and tremendous concussion from it.
These and a couple of other reasons caused me to avoid using sphericals in most cases.

hmm.... How much case capacity is left after filled by spherical vs extruted..... with same bullet.... try a regular primer in spherical and a magnum in extruted.. do you notice a difference or do they feel about the same? Seat your bullet's so you get the same case volume and try again maybe...

You may very well be correct on this, and not imagining anything.
I have noted in my range books that some powders recoil more with the same bullet weight. I have H4350 and 760 noted more than all others.
I'll give you a couple of facts to mull over.
Double base EXTRUDED powders produce LESS gas for the same volume (powder weight) as do single base EXTRUDED powders.
But double base BALL powders give more gas per volume (powder weight).
This is why most ball powders are known by their habit of producing large muzzle flashes in comparison to either type of extruded powder.
This also increases the "jet effect", or pulse, of the recoil, which is more noticeable than the gentle push of extruded powder.
Cheers
416RigbyHunter.

Dave, trust your instincts. You'll find them to be accurate.

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the load with H-335 seemed to kick the holy living snot out of me while the other two powders had what seemed to be more normal recoil. My kids got me a set of those earphone hearing protectors and damned if the kick from H-335 didn't literally go away.

Enough of this voodoo physics discussion. This post says it all.

Well, you know, I never actually thought about it before this thread. Nor had I actually considered the 'jet effect' (even though I was using it to act as a muzzle break). I had been wondering about percieved recoil - and that ignoring the reality of having a cut eyebrow! - That I have had once or twice (or thrice - OK so I learn slowly! ) Now I am shooting the same cartridge in a lighter gun without thought of hold or losing the sight picture. A single baffle 'suppressor'! It's ugly until after not getting smacked on the eyebrow.

I don't think it would be any different if the MV's were the same, provided that the powder chares were the same weight or close to the same weight.......

I just wonder if the extra muzzle blast from the spherical powder combines with the recoil and hence the perceived recoil is "higher".

I say this because over the years of observing shooters on the line, it seems that blast creates a flinch faster that recoil, but most will say the recoil bothers them.