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I'm trying to partial FL size for my Savage 270. Trying the fired shell it fits perfect and the bolt closes easy. I set up the die about a nickle thickness off the shell holder, resize, and the bolt closes easy. I turn down the die about 1/4 turn, resize, and the bolt closes easy. I keep on turning the die down 1/4 turn and resizing until I've reached the normal RCBS recommendation of 1/4 turn below die contact with shell holder, and the bolt closes easy every time! What is going on? Shouldn't I have reached a point where I get a tighter bolt? | ||
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massman I'm confused. If the fired case goes back into the chamber smoothly, that's good. All that you need to do is size the neck to hold the new bullet. Progressive re-sizing is not going to make the cartridge case bigger and thus tighter. It will only make it smaller and could lead to headspace problems. Resize only enough to make the fired case a smooth fit in the chamber. Ray Arizona Mountains | |||
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Yes you should normally reach a point where the bolt becomes more difficult to close as the die starts to resize the case body and pushes the shoulder forward. Did you shoot a light load and maybe the case did not expand much? Usually with repeated firings the case gets harder and harder to chamber so that eventually you need to push the shoulder back. As long as the case chambers easy why not just size the neck a nickle's width up off the shell holder and wait until you have a problem before PFLR. I find that the Stoney Point Head and Shoulder Gauge answers a lot of questions in situations like this. It will tell you what you are doing to the shoulder during resizing. Without guns we are subjects or victims, with guns we are citizens ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Yep, you will have to find a tight case, or wait for it to happen. Maybe one from another rifle will be too tight and allow you to set your die just right. JL. | |||
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Rifle chambers have tolerances and so do brass cases . You may have a long chamber or short brass . The hunting imperative was part of every man's soul; some denied or suppressed it, others diverted it into less blatantly violent avenues of expression, wielding clubs on the golf course or racquets on the court, substituting a little white ball for the prey of flesh and blood. Wilbur Smith | |||
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You`re sizeing your case more with each turn of the die if you keep turning it deeper. They should be just getting easier and easier as you go. The tightest the case will fit is when it is just fired and no sizeing at all has been done. You want to keep the sizeing to a minimum and by backing of from the shell holder you don`t work your brass as much as you do when screwing it in and setting it as the manufacture recommends. If the die can be set a 1/8" or so off the shell holder and the case still chambers easily I`d leave it there and be satisifed. If in the future it becomes a bit hard to chamber turn the die in (down) a 1/4 turn or so and try them agian. When they rechamber easily once more, lock your die and you should be at the point of minimum sizeing needed for your chamber. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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Shouldn't I have reached a point where I get a tighter bolt .For sure,one should fine it between Partial resizing(shoulder not worked)and P-FLR(backing the shoulder between .001"-.003"',a gap near a dime(.040"),you have quite a long chamber... | |||
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Hey Ol`Joe The conventional wisdom (which I realize is sometimes dead wrong) is that when the die first contacts the case, about 3/4 turn above the shell holder, it starts squeezing the case body and in the process pushes the shoulder forward. It continues to do this until just before the die contacts the shoulder about 1/4 turn below the shell holder. Until the shoulder is contacted and pushed back the case will become harder and harder to chamber. I have used a Head & Shoulders Gauge while doing this and it seems to indicate this is happening. I always have the gun out and chamber the case repeatedly during this process and that also indicated that this is happening. I always enjoy your posts and respect your opinion but one of us is wrong here. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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There are some confusing posts here. Most newish rifles, the chamber should be OK to FLS all the way. If something is up and the headspace is a bit too much, and your not going to get it fixed, FLSizeing all the way will only work the brass until the head seperates. This could be only a couple of shots. Quite often a normal fired case will not get too tight to chamber while winding the die down. I have yet to see where a case that is tight to begin with doesn't get tighter at some stage, but funny things do happen. May be the thickness of the coin was too little to start with, and may be a quarter turn of the die was too much to find the high spot. If you don't get it, it doesn't matter, as you probably don't have excess headspace. Lee dies for instance are supposed to be used all the way, and may need something taken off the shell holder to work at all. Once I had a tight chamber and loose die which wouldn't FLS enough to get a loose fit, but the case came more loose after a fireing. So after that I'd believe anything.  John L. | |||
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Rcbs says to adjust the sizer 1/4 turn of the die below when the die die and shell holder make contact( P-FLR),Hornady says near when the die and shell holder make contacy,Forster the same way,1/4 turn of a die is .018",I am confused,dies,I think should be standard,I think I will need help from HOT CORE  | |||
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No, No, not HotCore. If the manufactures don't know who does. But seriously, the manufactures just want you to end up with a FLS'ed case that will fit in any chamber. Some people will then want to "customise" their setting to remove any excess headspace. John L. | |||
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Long throat on your Savage... Want it to work, only screw down your die half way down, and then size it.... You will see a partial sizing of the neck.... it will evident in the brass neck.... If this is confusing, take out your expander plug and you will see what I am talking about.... When you started, your die was already screwed down enough to size for the chamber in your Savage.... It is only confusing to those who have not done much of it...But we all have to start learning somewhere...  cheers seafire  | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Westernmassman: I'm trying to partial FL size for my Savage 270. Trying the fired shell it fits perfect and | |||
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Will try again:
Are you firing factory ammo, normal pressure reloads, or very light loads? If you are loading very light loads, the firing pin will drive the case forward in the chamber and actually shrink the case, resulting in excessive headspace. Using either a micrometer case headspace gauge or the stoney point will verify this. Best results can be obtained by using a case headspace gauge of your choice to measure the actual headspace of your rifle (for normal pressure loads), then set your resizing die to provide a few thousandths headspace clearance. Regards, hm 2 Chronicles 7:14: If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. | |||
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Just barely.
 You all have the correct answers in the above posts. The only thing they did not mention was "Fire Forming" the initial Loads in new cases so the P-FLR would have a better chance of working. (And so the "majority" of the initial case stretching is done near the neck rather than at the Pressure Ring. There will still be stretching at the Pressure Ring, but not nearly as much.) As some of you have discovered, if the case length(from datum point on the shoulder to the casehead) is not long enough, then P-FLR might not work. So, let me "recommend" Fire Forming new cases. Not all of them need it, but some do. --- I agree. They are just a bit out of sequence. Let's go back to the start and see if we can get the answers aligned properly. No offense to any posters I leave out. It appears your "fired case" just wasn't long enough after the initial firing for P-FLR to work as mentioned by:
--- The reason this is confusing is because they are actually describing what is normally "Full Length Resizing". The distance the Die screws in varies because of all the "variables" involved. Chamber length, Die dimensions and top of the Shell holder thickness. Each has a direct bearing on how to properly set the Die to P-FLR, FLR or Neck Size for a specific rifle. Westernmassman and Woods have posted how to P-FLR real well: This is the correct approach if only the case had been a bit longer.
--- Yes indeed. Best of luck to you folks. | |||
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Working up loads for a new TC Encore, (7 mm Rem Mag), I found that factory rounds would seat .003 below the barrel, after being fired they would protrude .003 from the barrel, and noticed a slight indentation just ahead of the belt. This I believe was the result of an over length chamber, or possibly too much gap between the barrel and the frame. I started over with 358 Norma brass, and after measuring the barrel to frame gap (.005) I partial sized the new brass to give a .002 difference from case head to frame, but had full contact with the shoulder area, have not seen the indentation at the base on any of these loads. Have not figured a way to measure exactly, but there is about a dimes thickness between shell holder and die bottom. Sized in 1/4 turn increments till I got the proper length. I am 12 reloads into this lot of 50, and brass looks really good. I have also learned that I must adjust the die each round of reloading, as the brass seems to take on different dimensions with each firing. The difference is minute, but did find that backing the die off then, working back to the correct headspace was necessary. This is much easier with the single shot, as the measurements are very easy to make. I had tried to use 7mm brass, and neck them up, then partial size to form a false shoulder, to gain some length in the shoulder area, then seat the bullet to contact the rifling, but found that even with a tight crimp, it would always take a couple of times to get the round to fire, as the hammer blow would drive the case forward over the bullet, I would have to re-cock and pull the trigger again to get the round to fire. Sure wish brass makers would sell virgin brass longer than SAMMI specs for guys who want to get their headspace right. "It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." Mark Twain | |||
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Thanks to all the posters. Its a pretty interesting read. However I'm still a little confused. My take on this is that the Savage has a long chamber and that I can probably get by neck sizing only but should buy a headspace guage. I'm about 2 grains off max for the 140 grain Hornady's I've been trying. Just trying to decide whether or not I can improve the accuracy (1.30 inchs @ 100yds) enough to interest me in keeping the gun. | |||
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I'd say you have NO PROBLEM with case sizeing you can neck size if you want, FLS if you want, and you don't need a headspace gauge, and any inprovement in accuracy will be somewhere else. IE, projectile,powder,Velosity change Etc. JL. | |||
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I use redding fl dies and I adjust it to where I can see the neck is just about fully sized. When adjusted like this you can see a ring on the case where the die just starts to touch the shoulder. I lock the die down and size all the cases. I found this gives easy loading and extraction in all weather because the head space is right for my rifles. I also found that whether neck sizing or sizing in the manner described above, after repeated (3 or 4 firings) you will have to full length size the cases because they set up "memory" and will become difficult to chamber. All you have to do is set the die to bump the shoulder back a little more and it will squeeze the case more so it will chamber easily again. | |||
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I used to do that, but since I hunt a lot, I want full length resized cases, so function is flawless...I have not seen any difference in case life as a result of my full length resizing....nor any difference in accuracy..and I have test this extensively at least from a hunting rifle standpoint...My varmint rifles have a 0 tolerance expansion and can be loaded without resizing as a matter of fact, but I have a .001 hand resizing die for them... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I do it nearly like Russ says. I usually back off the die 1/4 turn from direct contact with the shell holder, leaving a very small length of the neck unsized. If chambering becomes tight, I bump them down a bit more. Benn doing it this way since 1972 with no problems. My new Redding F/L die set recommends that you back off the die till feeling resistance when chambering, the turn it down a bit at a time till the bolt just closes easily, or with very slight resistance. This will give the best fit in your chamber and cause the least amount of stretching practical. That is if you are only using one gun for this brass, if loading for more than one chamber, you'll have to set to the smaller chamber. | |||
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If someone isn't confused about sizing cases before reading this, he surely is after..... If a fired case fits the chamber easily, there is very little sizing that needs to be done. You can choose to neck size, or you can choose to "full length size". Both can be overdone. To set your die to "minimum" full length size, blacken the shoulder of the case with a match, and run it into the die (it is easiest if you take out the expander ball assembly). Keep screwing the die down until it contacts the shoulder of the case (it will show on the black). Turn it down just a "tisk" more (a couple of thou of an inch), and lock it in. At this point the case will be sized back sufficiently to allow chambering even when a piece of leaf or sand falls into the chamber. It also reduces the working of the brass. This will almost always "do it". However, if you have a long chamber with a wide base, you may run into trouble at the base, and you end up having the push the shoulder WAY back before you can size the base down to where it needs it. If that's the case, trade the gun, or buy stock in the brass manufacturer..... Rarely does the sizing method have a real influence on the life of the brass, but I used to have a long chambered 243 that would separate at the head after three sizings, if the dies were set by following the instructions. FWIW, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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The thing about PFL sizing is that I try for the stiffer closing of the bolt. the case will feed and chamber just fine. It has been slightly reduced in diameter at the expansion ring and all increase in the pressure of the bolt is due to the shoulder being pulled foreward, NOT pushed backwards as with FL sizing. There is a point where the die body just barely makes contact with the expansion ring, and has NOT been advanced down far enough to contact the shoulder. The resizing of the expansion ring pushes the shoulder foreward, and therefore the bolt slightly stiffens as it closes due to the shoulder being several .001"s foreward, it presses itself hard against the bolt face. That is the whole idea behind PFL sizing, a good, compressed, tightly headspaced case. when attempting to PFL size, the nickel thickness is just the average starting point for the die to be turned out. Do you have a headspace guage like the stoney point caliper mounted version? If so, measure the datum line on the fired case, then set your die further OFF the shell holder and turn it down slowly until the guage shows that shoulder has moved forward .002". Then lock it down. If you don't have a headspace set-up, then simply turn the die further out and advance it 1/8 turn at a time until the bolt gets just a tad stiff when chambering the sized case. If you have a very smooth style action, you will need to possible remove any lug grease to stiffin the operation of the bolt and go very slowly trying to feel the slight increase in pressure as the bolt is closed. Then lock it down. The stoney point headspace deal that is caliper mounted will eliminate all your guesswork and it's cheap too. I started trying this method after a discussion with Hot Core and have been doing a bit of it in a single rifle. It has definitely NOT hurt my accuracy at all, and by it's very theory, it has to increase case life some as well as bullet/bore alignment. This is the same thing we strive for in BR shooting. Difficulty is inevitable Misery is optional | |||
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This is the way to go! These headspace gauges may not be perfect, but they are a heck of site better than no gauge. You'd be surprised at how far shoulders are often pushed back by dies set up by "feel". One of the problems is that it is entirely possible to have other parts of the case provide the "stiffness" and cause you to adjust your die unnecessarily deeper. The gauges take out 95% of the guesswork. Great post JustC, well worded, easy to understand and sharing a bunch of experience. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Hey Mike, Which "other parts of the case" would that be? | |||
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Example: just in front of the case head. Normally, if this is the part causing the resistance when chambering, you can see it on the case, if you happen to look. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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I have good luck with once shot cases by setting the die to where it just starts to resize the neck. Then I come down slowly until about 1/2 the neck is resized and stop. Works real good. | |||
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What is the difference between Patial Resizing(shoulder not worked) and P-FLR(shoulder worked),which one of you use either one of this method,what is smooth resizing( putting miminum sizing on a case ),having a Br die that can do it(competion dies),standard dies cannot do it???,just a little confused,I will need help from HOTCORE and others... | |||
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Before I was lead astray by all the info here on AR, I only considered that a case needed FLSing because of the case expanding outwards, esp. just above the head. The wear mark looks a lot like insipient head seperation. I ruined a lot of cases cutting them off near there to check the inside carefully. My "evidence" was/is that usually a fair bit of extra powder will fit in a neck sized only case. The difference in a 458 WM goes from no compression to major compression for a FLS/new one. John L. | |||
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John, I totally agree with you, case capacity is conspicuously larger in fireformed (or necksized) cases compared to, say, new cases. How much of a difference you'll see between NS and FL sized cases, depends on size of your chamber, size of your FL die vs new case size. Normally, FL sized cases are still a fair bit larger than new cases. It is indeed practical, when you can avoid compressed loads (which I generally try to avoid) by using fireformed cases. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Hey mike, It sounds like you are describing the Pressure Ring. On a "fired" Belted Case, the Pressure Ring is the widest diameter forward of the Belt. On a "fired" non-Belted case, the Pressure Ring is the widest diameter forward of the Extraction Groove. Is that where you are talking about? If it is, I've not "experienced" what you are describing as causing any resistance when chambering a cartridge. Perhaps it is because I do not typically Neck Size cases which by design does not "resize"(or reform to a smaller diameter) the Pressure Ring. I can see where the Pressure Ring could create a bind in a non-concentric chamber if a person is only Neck Sizing. | |||
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I had not caught onto the the term "pressure ring" before, but I think it pretty well describes what I'm talking about. Depending on how your chamber is cut, in some rifles, it is quite clear to which point the case expands outwards. This point can be quite a ways in front of either the extraction groove or belt. So I guess I am talking about the pressure ring. I think what happens is the following. In most (all?) dimensions in which the case expands, it will contract sufficiently, that it will chamber again (in same chamber), either unsized or NSed only. Depending on a bunch of factors (load intensity, size of chamber, ability of brass to contract and what not??), the brass gradually contracts less and less over repeated firings. Eventually we NS people are forced to FL size our brass. When we do so, we normally think of setting back the shoulder (hopefully .001-002"), but in reality we must reduce whatever dimension of the case that causes it to chamber stiffly. Depending on the size of your chamber vs. the size and adjustment of your die, exactly which dimension you reduce first, is a bit of a lottery. Long and thin vs. short and fat, or any combination thereof, is possible in both chamber and die. It is entirely possible, that we only manage to reduce the dimension of the pressure ring, after we have adjusted the die far enough down to push back the shoulder further than the .001-.002 we intended. If the pressure ring dimension of the case still causes the case to chamber stiffly, we might confuse this with needing to push the shoulder back futher, and inadvertently create a potentially dangerous headspace problem. When in reality, it was a question of poorly matched chamber vs. die dimensions. This is where the head space gauge comes in - at least for me. It provides me with a way of verifying what I'm doing in my sizing operation - as imperfect as it may be. The good thing about the pressure ring is that, if this is where the case is actually binding, you can normally spot it on the case. Belted cases are sometimes the worst for "binding pressure ring effect", perhaps because magnum chambers are often cut on the sloppy side?? Do I make sense?? - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Hey rejpelly, It sure can be confusing. Some of the confusion stems from all of us using slightly different terms to describe things. "What is the difference between Patial Resizing(shoulder not worked)" - Here the attempt is made to Neck Size using a Full Length Resizer without it doing any Resizing(reducing the diameter) of the Pressure Ring. This is sometimes possible, but it really depends on how large the Chamber dimensions are in comparison to the FL Die dimensions. A lot of folks just Resize about 1/2 the Neck using a FL Die and get along fine, but it doesn't work with all Chamber/FL Die combinations. "and P-FLR(shoulder worked)," Here the FL Die completely Resizes the Case-neck and also begins Resizing(reducing the diameter) of the Pressure Ring. As the Pressure Ring is Resized the length of the case from the Datum Point on the Case-shoulder to the Case-head becomes longer. It will lengthen that distance (on most rifles) to the point that it becomes difficult to close the Bolt on the "fired and P-FLRed case". So the FL Die must be screwed in just a bit further so the Case-shoulder is push back just a bit. Once the Bolt closes on the P-FLRed Case with a bit of resistance, you stop screwing the FL Die in and set the Lock Ring. "which one of you use either one of this method,"I prefer P-FLR for my rifles with bottle-neck cases. But, I DO NOT hunt in what is typically thought of as "Dangerous Game" country. If I did, I would FL Resize - so the Bolt closes on a Case with "no resistance". "what is smooth resizing( putting miminum sizing on a case )," I'm not familiar with that term. It appears to be a phrase someone has coined that is not a normal term used in reloading. "having a Br die that can do it(competion dies),standard dies cannot do it???,"I'm not sure I understand the question. Normally BR Dies have a few extra cost things attached like a Micrometer controlled Seating Stem, etc., but all of it can be seen in their description when compared to the same manufacturer's Regular FL Die Set. The FL Dies are made to Resize cases to fit all chambers, even the SAAMI Minimum chambers, so the internal Die dimensions should be the same for both. The BR Dies might have a higher Polish or cosmetic differences as well. You do not need BR Dies in order to P-FLR or FLR if that is what you are asking. | |||
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I agree. Also agree. By the way, nice wording which should help any Beginners who are trying to visualize the process. I do some Neck Sizing about once every 4-5 years, but just haven't experienced this situation. I'm not saying you are wrong at all, just that I'm not familiar with it. I also don't use any of the various (Sinclair, Stoney Point, etc.) gauges. Just didn't have good luck with the "one" Stoney Point I tried. Perhaps if I had used it longer, I might like them too. In my experience the "burnishing" of the Pressure Ring occurs when the inside of the FL Die rubs against it as it is slightly Resizing that portion of the case. Again though, I'm not saying you are wrong, just that my experience is different. I've also seem this mentioned a good bit by various folks over the years, but have not experienced it either. Every rifle I've ever had that was chambered for a Belted case seemed as normal as a non-Belted chamber. Yes indeed. Nice to hear what you are seeing that is different than what I see. It helps re-enforce that experiences vary and that not all answers fit every situation. Best of luck to you. | |||
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