A few years agon Winchester changed their WLR Primers. The new ones aren't nickle(?) coated like the previous primers and I suspect the mix changed somewhat. At one time I had two thousand of the old primers and had worked up loads in the two rifles I use the most years ago. The new primers opened up the groups in both rifles and moved it 2 inches left in one case and 1 inch right & 2 inches low in the other case. Has anyone else experienced this with the new WLRP's?

What primer currently on the market would best approximate the Old WLRP's? I'm guessing CCI 200.
RIch Elliott

I have 1 box of old WW pistol that are in a white box that are nickle color.

I have only used WW rifle primers.

Different primers is the only thing I have not experimented with changeing. Just WW.

I tryed some cci mags once with a load and got a big pressure spike.

WW's have been in a blue box for a long time with gold color primers.

I was thinking of trying some cci 200.

Rich, when Winchester changed their WLR primers I ran into some real problems. Not so much in point of impact or accuracy, but the first lot of the new primers I bought were way smaller in diameter than the old ones.

I went to load some of the new gold colored primers in my 25-06 and thought the primer pockets were expanded too much. The primers were a VERY loose fit. Just on a lark I tried some Fed 210 primers and some of the old WLR primers I still had on hand and they were quite snug in the same batch of cases.

I am trying to use this batch up by using them when I load new cases, but they still are not that great.

In regard to other primers approximating the old WLR primers I would suggest either Fed 210 or CCI 200, with my vote going for the Fed 210.

I hope Winchester gets this worked out soon. However, I guess I really don't care. In a swap of some reloading stuff I wound up with a LOT of the old WLR primers.

quote:

In a swap of some reloading stuff I wound up with a LOT of the old WLR primers.

Lucky you!

Rich Elliott

When in 1999 Winchester changed their primers from nickel plated to brass I called them up. I asked what they had done, and was told that they had made the primer more sensitive to “combat off center hitsâ€. I had no problems with the old WLR, used them for a decade or more, and thought the change was un necessary. Turns out that the new brass WLR, and WSR, are thinner and pierce on loads that did never bothered the old nickel plated Winchester.

It is my considered opinion, and it was held at the time in the highpower shooting community, of the primers available to the public, the old WLR most closely approximated military primers. This primer was widely used by those who shot M1’s and M1a’s. Primer selection is very important in these rifles as they have free floating firing pins, and have been known to slamfire with sensitive Federal primers. I had two slamfires in Garands with Federal primers, and when I followed up slamfire reports from the actual competitive shooter, the common thread was a Federal primer. Never found a slamfire event with the old nickel Winchester LR primer.

I went out and bought a bunch of CCI #34 primers, found them excellent, and for all practical purposes act the same as the old nickel WLR. CCI states that these are a military primer, made for their military product line. I called and confirmed that these are less sensitive and a magnum primer. Which incidentally, the old WLR was considered a magnum primer at the time.

I chronographed a favorite 30-06 load, in my 30-06 Match rifle, 26†1:10 Wilson barrel. The only difference was the cases and the primers. There is a slight difference in the averages, but it is minor. To data I have not had any problem using nickel WLR data with my CCI #34 primers.



168 gr Sierra Match 47.5 AA2495 wtd R-P cases CCI 34 OAL 3.30"
5 May 00 T=82°F
Group Size Excellent

Ave Vel = 2745
Std Dev = 9
ES 28
Low 2728
High 2756
N = 10

168 gr Sierra Match 47.0 AA2495 wtd F-C cases WLR OAL 3.30"
5 May 00 T=82°F
Group Size Excellent

Ave Vel = 2765
Std Dev = 10
ES 30
Low 2745
High 2775
N = 11

quote:

Originally posted by Rich Elliott:
and had worked up loads in the two rifles I use the most years ago.
What primer currently on the market would best approximate the Old WLRP's? I'm guessing CCI 200.
RIch Elliott

Or you could just work up a new powder load, a little either way may be just right.

Slamfire,

quote:

the old WLR was considered a magnum primer at the time.

I remember seeing a comparison of the available primers many years ago (I've been trying to find it) that lumped the Win. #120,
which is the same as the WLR, right up there with the magnum primers. Thanks, for the info. I can't remember ever seeing CCI # 34 primers for sale anywhere though. I have some CCI 200's that I intend to try and I also have on hand some CCI 250's and Federal Magnum primers but thought they might be a bit much.

JAL,
Actually it's 3 different rifles, 2 of which I've used for over 25 years, that I have my "pet" loads for. I just want to maintain "perfection"

Actually, I'm a bit stubborn!
Thanks, Guys,
Rich Elliott

The CCI #34 primers are available through many reloading supply houses. One of these places had the #34s on sale a few months ago and I stocked up because I use them in my M1-A loads. I'll have to try them in my other rifles also.

The CCI #34s are usually priced much lower than the "civilian market" primers. If they work well, I'll be very pleased.

http://www.wideners.com/

This is the absolute best price on CCi#34's that I have seen. Given that dealer price for primers is around $104.00 for 5000, $70.00 is a steal.

Are the #34's thicker or harder Than 200's ?

When I called CCI, back in 1999, I was told that their mil spec line was different and less sensitive than their commerical line. It all had to do with drop height testing of primers, the military primers had a higher none fire height.

I know it is easier to call the things "harder", but really they are less sensitive.

PROBLEM SOLVED

I tried CCI 250 Magnum Primers. Didn't change anything else. Shot a 3 shot group into just under an inch and between 2 & 3 inches high @ 100 yards. Prints exactly over my original loads with the Old WLRP's. (57 grs. IMR 4350 WW cases & 180 Gr. Nosler partitions.) Guess the old WLRP's were as hot as everyone elses magnum primers.
Rich Elliott

This is a really interesting thread to me.

Years ago, using the nickel WSPM primers, I worked up a load for my .357 Magnum of 20 grs. W-296 with a 125 Hornady XTP (which was about 0.9 grs. below Hornady's max, if I recall correctly). It worked just great and I went through hundreds of rounds with nary a problem.

More recently, I tried to duplicate that load using the new, brass WSPM. Alas, the primers in the first cylinder full flattened out pretty significantly. I stopped shooting forthwith.

Mystified, I pulled the bullets of the remaining rounds, and weighed the powder, to see if I'd screwed up in reloading them. I hadn't -- the charges read right at 20 grains. I weighed the bullets: they were right at 125 grains. I rechecked the manual -- I should have been fine.

Fortunately, I had some of the old nickel-primed, WSPM rounds left over. I pulled some of their bullets, and weighed their charges: they, too, weighed right at 20 grains, with trivial variation, and the bullets weighed 125 grs.

Then, I resized and flaired the case mouths, added those 20 grains of W-296, and reseated the bullets.

They shot fine with the old nickel primers -- there was no evidence whatsoever of flattened primers.

So I went to an old Winchester freebee loading book, which recommended 18.5 grains of W-296, and a tight crimp. Okay -- I tried that load with my WSPM brass primers, being very careful to not drop below 18.5 grs for fear of detonation (which the Win book warned about).

With 18.5 grains, several of my brass WSPM primers were flattened, though not quite so badly as in the 20 gr loads.

I figured my supply of W-296 might have gone bad, though I couldn't imagine how -- so I chucked it, and picked up some Blue Dot.

Using both WSPM primers and WSP primers (the latter recommended by Speer) I saw flattened primers from 1 gr below max (as near as I cared to go to max) to as low as I dared to go.

But when I tried some CCI 500 (Small Pistol Magnum) primers, I could easily shoot 19 grs of W-296 and the higher charged Blue Dot loads without those troublesome flattened primers.

quote:

Originally posted by Clawmute:
This is a really interesting thread to me.
But when I tried some CCI 500 (Small Pistol Magnum) primers, I could easily shoot 19 grs of W-296 and the higher charged Blue Dot loads without those troublesome flattened primers.

Stranger and stranger. I used Speer Manual No.10 and for .357 rev. and Marlin, 125gr + 21.6gr. 296, don't know the cases or primers, had no excessive pressure problems.

But all your loads may have been the same pressure, with that pressure showing differently on thinner/softer and thicker/harder primer metal.

So flattened primers by themselves may be no reason not to use a load. The mag. primers may have upped the pressure, but not shown that if they were harder. I forget what I used for pressure signs those days but it would have included ease of extraction with the revolver.
It's a wonder I'm still here.