In this area of Canada the hunted big game is Moose, black bear,and white tail deer. Generally when a young fellow asks me to recomend a caliber, I'll often recomend the 7mm Rem mag. Good caliber, lots of factory ammo and rifles.The other day I done just this, and the young man said " why not the 7mm WSM ." I really didn't have a good answer. So now I'm asking you guys, what would be your choise between these two, keeping in mind the above mentioned game, and your reason. Thank You.

If your friend isn't a reloader and thinks the WSM will be around for his lifetime -- OK. If not, the 7mm Rem Mag will always be available in factory ammo (IMO).

I think the WSMs and WSSMs will fade away like a case of indigestion over time.

If he is a reloader, he might find that the WSMs are finicky (I know the WSSMs are), but I don't have any experience with the WSMs, so it's just a guess on my part.

I love the 7mm bore, but never got to buying a 7WSM. I like heavier for caliber bullets & I think the 7WSM falls a bit short for 175gr, even 160gr seat pretty deep. Then for a non handloader, the 7RM is stilll king, just so many factory loads availble.

Advantages of 7mm Rem Mag:

(1) Cheaper and more abundant ammunition
(2) Larger case capacity, so similar velocities at lower pressure, or higher velocities at similar pressures.
(3) Up to two more rounds in the magazine, depending on make of rifle.
(4) Typically more dependable feeding, again depending on individual rifle.

Advantages of 7mm WSM:

(1) Rifle and action can be 3/4" shorter overall and 4-6 oz lighter.

Pick whichever set of advantages is most important to you.

I would see nothing wrong with the 7mm WSM for moose, black bear, etc. but I would never get one. The only advantage I can see for it is that it's different from what most use and I don't consider that a real advantage.

Of the 7mm cartridges available, I think the 7mm Remington Magnum is very hard to beat. I could probably get 7mm Rem. Mag. ammo anywhere in the world where hunting is common and I doubt that's the case for the 7mm WSM. You could go to a larger 7mm like the 7mm STW or 7mm Weatherby Magnum but at the cost of more powder use and more expensive components and cartridges. The ballistic gains on the larger 7mms do not, in my opinion, give them much advantage over the plain jane 7mm Rem. Mag.

I've rifles in both...here's a point no one mentioned. In the newest Lyman Reloading Manual..it states "The 7mmWSM displayed unusually good ballistic uniformity with nearly every powder tested." I found the 7mm WSM in my use & testing to be much less fickle, or sensitive than the standard 7mm RemMag. I like it better. The reasons the other posters have given are valid...except for this point. I get more consistency with the 7mmWSM, but also it would be more lacking with heavy bullets due to its short neck & case vs the standard 7mmRemMag.
That said, I would pick my 7mmWSM for bullets to 150 gr., 160 would be max and probably not as easy to get a hot load as with the 7mmRemMag with the 160's. Only with 160 gr & higher does the 7mmWSM start to fall off.
Tom

The 7mm Rem Mag is a fine old round. The 7 WSM IMHO is a better newer one. The old 7mm Rem Mag suffers from substantial differences in bore tolerances - I have 3 all quite different.
The 7 WSM being new doesn't suffer from all the variations in chambering etc. that the 7 Rem mag does. It is an extremely accurate round that is becoming more and more popular with 1000yd bench rest shooters.
Ballistically they are about the same the Rem mag should be a little faster but my Kimber 8400 7 WSM shot 160gr factory ammo faster than any of my 3 Rem mags would shoot 160gr reloads.
In Canada ammo availability might be a bigger issue than here in the states so the 7 Rem might get the nod. If you can find 7 WSM w/o problems I would prefer it.
In the end if you just buy a great rifle in either caliber you should be good to go....................DJ

I owned a 7mm rem mag for a number of years, great cartridge but it was not without fault.

Today, if I wanted that level of performance, I would choose the WSM without doubt, you get 7mm rem mag 26" barrel performance from a 24" barrel combined with a short action this does save weight no matter what anyone has said or thinks.

More importantly though, you get rid of the antiquated belt, making the WSM easier to load for and giving better case life.

A good friend of mine has almost the same rifles in 7mm rem mag and 7mm WSM, he bought the WSM because the price was so low, he couldn't say no, he was just going to keep it and sell it later.

But now he selling his 7mm rem mag, simply because he never uses it, he always grabs his WSM saying that it is better in every way, he now has no use for his rem mag.

I note that all of the nay sayers here seem to have no experience with WSM's ?

Try to find a box of 7mm WSM ammo when you've lost your reloads in Fort Nelson or Dease Lake. NOT!

The WSMs are cool, accurate, probably here to stay, but they will probably never be easy to find in out of the way places. I reload, but you never know about Murphy's law. It was for this reason alone that when it came to buying a Kimber .300 WSM or building a light weight .300 Win. at more $, the choice was the latter.

quote:

Today, if I wanted that level of performance, I would choose the WSM without doubt, you get 7mm rem mag 26" barrel performance from a 24" barrel . . . .

Mythology arisen from advertising hype. It is true that WSM ammunition is loaded to borderline pressures, but as with all new introductions, this will soon come to an end. The larger case ALWAYS provides greater velocity potential at the same pressure.

. . . . combined with a short action this does save weight no matter what anyone has said or thinks.

Yes, 3/4 inch and 4-6 ounces, which, if vitally important to the shooter, would be the deciding factor.

More importantly though, you get rid of the antiquated belt, making the WSM easier to load for and giving better case life.

All bottleneck cartridges should be loaded the same way -- to headspace on the shoulder -- no matter what kind of rim they have. The belted case does have the advantage of having the belt as a "fail-safe" headspacing mechanism if someone royally screws up on the base-to-shoulder dimension of either the chamber or cartridge.

I have no quarrel with someone who chooses the WSM, but please understand the actual issues.

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbo:
...More importantly though, you get rid of the antiquated belt, making the WSM easier to load for and giving better case life....

Hey Tumbo, I'd appreciate it if you would expand on that statement a bit more.

No problems Hot Core.

The belt was developed over 100 years ago to allow straight or near straight walled rimless cases to headspace.

Today, all cases with the exception of a few straight walled ones should headspace from the shoulder reguardless if they are belted or not.

There is no reason for any bottle neck case to headspace from a belt, If you do allow the case to headspace from the belt, expect case life to be poor, with head seperations likely, depending on how far back the shoulder is set..

That pretty much states how useless the belt is in most cases.

Here is a little passage that I tend to agree with.

quote:

Since about 1936, most folks have felt that if the case didn't have a belt
on it, it wasn't very powerful. Such a miscarriage of information has never
been promoted throughout the shooting sports; except perhaps Browning's BOSS.

Most belted cases headspace on their shoulder after they are first fired
anyway. If they don't, they should. Otherwise, case life is very short
and as few as 3 or 4 reloads per belted case is common as folks set their
shoulder back too far when full-length sizing. Modern day `magnum' cartridges
don't need that belt; they have enough shoulder to hold headspace very easy.
The exceptions are straight-wall cases like the .458 Win. Mag. that do need
something to headspace on so that belt does work for such cases. Most folks
won't buy a rifle chambered for a magnum cartridge unless the cases have a
belt on 'em. They're convinced that belt means `power' and without it, there
is no such thing. Rifle makers are trapped into this same thing and they
aren't about to change it; rifle sales would drop.

Such a tragedy indeed that folks have gotten wrapped up in belted cases for
powerful cartridges when a rimless one of the same capacity would be more
accurate, feed easier and case life for the average reloader would quadruple.

quote:

Mythology arisen from advertising hype. It is true that WSM ammunition is loaded to borderline pressures,

My mate doesn't use factory ammo at all, his WSM handloads though from a 24" barrel equal and in some instances surpass the velocities he is getting from his rem mag with a 26" barrel

quote:

Yes, 3/4 inch and 4-6 ounces, which, if vitally important to the shooter, would be the deciding factor.
[QUOTE]

Take 2" off that 26" barrel and the weight savings are significant.

[QUOTE] All bottleneck cartridges should be loaded the same way -- to headspace on the shoulder -- no matter what kind of rim they have. The belted case does have the advantage of having the belt as a "fail-safe" headspacing mechanism if someone royally screws up on the base-to-shoulder dimension of either the chamber or cartridge.

Yes I agree with the first part of your statment, all cartridges should headspace on the shoulder, sort of makes the belt obsolete doesn't it ?

Dont get me wrong, I think the 7mm mag a great cartridge, I just think the WSM is at least as good, without having to the belt to complicate matters.

Sorry for the long post.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Tumbo:
...More importantly though, you get rid of the antiquated belt, making the WSM easier to load for and giving better case life....

Hey Tumbo, I'd appreciate it if you would expand on that statement a bit more.

When you get a chance go pick up a bag of WW virgin 338 Win Mag brass. Take a fired case and set it beside the Virgin brass and see how far off the shoulder is compared with a fired case. You can probably do this with most belted rounds I just noticed it in particular in 338 Win Mag. When I measured the unfired vs fired cases with an RCBS case micrometer the fired cases were at .001 headspace and the unfired cases were from -.015 to -.025! You pretty much have to fireform the cases to get them chambered properly. -None of these problems exist with WSM cases.
You can make belted bottleneck cases work just fine, but it is a simple fact that the same cases would be even better without the belt. Belts serve absolutely no useful purpose on a bottleneck cartridge used in a bolt action rifle you can flame away....but I'm right. .......................DJ

A lot of people will argue that the WSM's will not last but they are a good idea technically. If I had a traditional belted magnum I probably would not change but being in the market for a magnum makes things interesting. I got a 300SAUM and like it. It is not quite a 300 Win but good enough for me and a good step up from my 7mm08.
The WSM argument will go on for quite some time I suspect. Change can be difficult for some people.

quote:

Change can be difficult for some people.

I could have written 10 pages and not put it better than that, well said Dwight

Good luck with your 300SAUM, another good cartridge that will be an excellent companion to your 7mm-08.

Hey DJ and Tumbo, No intention to "flame" either of you.

Just asking because I thought Tumbo might know something I was not aware of. However I agree with what he said.

But, I would add - there is no reason not to Resize a Belted Case exactly the same as you do a regular non-belted case. When that is done so it Headspaces off the Shoulder, then I see no merit to the Belt creating a problem.

DJ recently informed me about the "strengthening" of the 338Lapua cases. This puts more material just ahead of the Case Head similar to what Winchester did with the WSM cartridges. Of course, the Belted Cases are already stronger in that same area.

Then the question becomes "Why" would the manufactures actually want the non-Belted Cases stronger slightly forward of the Case Head - like the Belted Cases?

Still not intended as Flames DJ, but I believe it is because the Winchester(and Lapua) Design Engineers realizing this portion of the Case needed strengthening for use in CRF rifles.

Needless to say, the Belted Cases work much SAFER in the CRF actions when HIGHER Pressures are experienced, in comparison to other traditional non-Belted cases. Strengthening the Case Head on the non-Belted "new Cases" just provides a bit more "Eye protection" for the CRF users.
---

Back in the mid-1980s I ran an Endurance Test on 3 - 7mmRemMag cases in an old 1st generation M77 Ruger. I used new Remington Cases, a regular set of RCBS Dies set to P-FLR the cases and 150gr bullets with a SAFE MAX Load of IMR-4831.

I got 33 reloads in each Case and finally had a Neck Split on the 34th Resize, so I stopped. I had not done any Annealing along the way, but should have.

I do "Fire Form" all my Cases as DJ mentioned as a normal part of getting long Case life.
---

Not fighting the WSM line except for the Royalty being paid to jamisson.

Well Guys, thanks alot for you opinions and info. I think that it seems that the 7mm rem mag is still popular, but so to is the newer 7mm WSM, and both seem to be here to stay buy what I see of what you wrote. Like I said I use to often recomend the 7mm Rem mag because of avaible rifles, etc.But also because I felt it gave good velocity and energy with not to much recoil. If you would permit me I would like to take this discussion one step further. What caliber would you recomend to a NEW hunter that will be hunting moose, black bear, and deer with the ocaissonal carobou hunt up north.

If it had nothing to do with style but everthing to do with practicality I would recommend a 7X57.

quote:

Originally posted by Canadian reloarder:
... What caliber would you recomend to a NEW hunter that will be hunting moose, black bear, and deer with the ocaissonal carobou hunt up north.

I'd recommend a good old 30-06 to a person who does not reload.

Since the person is a NEW Hunter, I'll guess he does not reload. Now days there is the "Low Recoil" ammunition for the fellow to get comfortable with shooting the 30-06 and gain some necessary Trigger Time.

Needless to say there is PLENTY of excellent off-the-shelf Standard Grade and Premium Ammo for the 30-06. Plus the "High Energy" ammo is also available from multiple manufacturers.

Unlike some of the folks who frequent this Board, I'm not a fan of letting people start Hunting before they can handle the weight and recoil of an "appropriate" rifle for the Game being hunted. And I feel the same for any NEW Hunter regardless of his age.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Needless to say, the Belted Cases work much SAFER in the CRF actions when HIGHER Pressures are experienced, in comparison to other traditional non-Belted cases. Strengthening the Case Head on the non-Belted "new Cases" just provides a bit more "Eye protection" for the CRF users.

Actually it might be needfull to say. What facts are you basing this on? I think that you are completely wrong that Belted cases are one bit stronger than properly manufactured cases without belts.
I do however give you a lot of credit for getting 33 loads out of Remington 7 mag cases, that must be a record! My Rugers' chamber and 3 different sets of reloading dies didn't agree nearly as well as yours did.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Not fighting the WSM line except for the Royalty being paid to jamisson.

I'm with you here. As much as I love the WSM's it almost makes me want to swear off them thinking of Jameson's extortion involving them...............DJ

I like the looks of the belt myself. I don't se how the belt wouldn't increas the strength of the case head either. If you had to I bet you could turn the belts off your cases and use them in an unaltered chamber without worry and you could call it some fancy wildcat name. I have loaded belted cartridges for years with zero problems so I think this is a contrived issue. As far as the short magnums go who needs a lighter or shorter magnum rifle? For more recoil and muzzle blast? My present 7MM Rem mag has not had a bullet lighter than 160 grains loaded in it yet as pushing heavy bullets fast is what mag cases are for. I feel the WSM's are a dumb idea and a lot of you "It's new" bandwagon hoppers made a small hill out of a mole's work.

quote:

Originally posted by rickt300:
I like the looks of the belt myself. I don't se how the belt wouldn't increas the strength of the case head either. If you had to I bet you could turn the belts off your cases and use them in an unaltered chamber without worry and you could call it some fancy wildcat name. I have loaded belted cartridges for years with zero problems so I think this is a contrived issue. As far as the short magnums go who needs a lighter or shorter magnum rifle? For more recoil and muzzle blast? My present 7MM Rem mag has not had a bullet lighter than 160 grains loaded in it yet as pushing heavy bullets fast is what mag cases are for. I feel the WSM's are a dumb idea and a lot of you "It's new" bandwagon hoppers made a small hill out of a mole's work.

Rick, have you ever shot or owned a WSM? A lot of people think that a rifle of roughly equal power that handles better and kicks less is a good thing.......................DJ

quote:

As far as the short magnums go who needs a lighter or shorter magnum rifle? For more recoil and muzzle blast? My present 7MM Rem mag has not had a bullet lighter than 160 grains loaded in it yet as pushing heavy bullets fast is what mag cases are for. I feel the WSM's are a dumb idea and a lot of you "It's new" bandwagon hoppers made a small hill out of a mole's work.

Obviously from someone who has yet to use one of the WSM's. There's definetly a place for a 6 1/2 lb rifle in my safe which can push 140gr bullets at 3300 fps out of a 24 inch barrel into 3/4 inch at 200 yards with less powder than the 7mm RM.

Not knocking the 7mm RM, I love mine. It'll shoot 5 into 1/2 inch at 100, but the 7WSM is a SWEET round!

Here's my answer: If you had a choice and perhaps your "Life" could be on the line, do you want the 7 mag that gives you 1-2 more "Chances" or you want to give it up early?

Choice, what choice?

I wouldnt give you ten cents for any fat mag.

Bears are out there................

quote:

Originally posted by AggieDog:
Here's my answer: If you had a choice and perhaps your "Life" could be on the line, do you want the 7 mag that gives you 1-2 more "Chances" or you want to give it up early?

What in the world are you talking about? Most of the WSM rifles hold exactly the same number of rounds in their magazines as do the older longer mags. My Finnlite 300 WSM holds 4 in the Mag. If you need more than that you should practice your marksmanship.
If there are big bears in the area, I'll probably be carrying something more potent than a 7 mag of any flavor...............DJ

quote:

Originally posted by djpaintles:
... What facts are you basing this on? I think that you are completely wrong that Belted cases are one bit stronger than properly manufactured cases without belts...

Hey DJ, It is due to the "Internal Taper" of the Belted Cases close to the Primer Pocket. That is also where the "extra" strengthening of the WSM Case is done. And I'm guessing the designers of the 338Lapua Case you told me about were smart enough to do it in the same place.

If you section a a Belted Case and a WSM Case, you can see how the Case has a Thicker Taper near the Case Head when compared to a regular non-Belted Case. The nice thing about this situation is you can see it(the Belted vs. non-Belted sectioning) for yourself in most Speer Manuals, or you can section all the cases you want and see it for yourself.

Where it matters in the CRF rifles, is this "Thicker" section of the Case Wall(close to the Primer Pocket) extends just a bit farther into the Chamber where the "gap" between the Bolt Face and Chamber Mouth is located. That provides additional "Case Wall Thickness" where Cases typically blow-out in the CRF rifles.
-----

quote:

Originally posted by megalomaniac:
... There's definetly a place for a 6 1/2 lb rifle in my safe which can push 140gr bullets at 3300 fps out of a 24 inch barrel ...

Hey megalomaniac, My 7mmRemMag has a "slow" barrel and only gets right at 3000fps with 140gr B-Tips and 3050fps with 140gr Partitions using a SAFE MAX Load of H1000.

So, I would agree with you that your rifle is definitely out performing mine. And I especially like that "6 1/2# weight"!

But I sure do like my old "Slow barrel" 7mmRemMag and the way it kills with 145gr Hot-Cor bullets.

For what its worth here is a guy that set a new record in the UK with a 7wsm. A 2.7" 1000yd group from a light gun.

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek071.html

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey megalomaniac, My 7mmRemMag has a "slow" barrel and only gets right at 3000fps with 140gr B-Tips and 3050fps with 140gr Partitions using a SAFE MAX Load of H1000.

So, I would agree with you that your rifle is definitely out performing mine. And I especially like that "6 1/2# weight"!

But I sure do like my old "Slow barrel" 7mmRemMag and the way it kills with 145gr Hot-Cor bullets.

Dump that H1000 in the garden where it will do you some good! My experience with it was dismal offering neither the velocity, or accuracy expected. I found it to exhibit pressure signs early on as it burns faster then books list. H4831 is a much better choice, especially if you choose a heavier bullet. I think the 7 Rem mag is at its best with 160s offering great killing power without punishing recoil.

The only good thing short magnums do is to help the economy, ie buy a new gun, new bullets etc.

If you build/own custom hunting rifles (non competition), the cartridge is 100% personal preference. You can get a shooter or a lemon, even from the same builder.

If you reload, all the "belt talk" is just something to talk about. A good builder will make a belt feed as slick as a non belt. I neck size only therefore the belt is a non issue.

Allegedly...allegedly, a long skinny case is supposed to feed better than a short fat one, so go figure. Regardless, see above re: builder.

As far as saving weight, that is 100% pure bullshit. 4-6 oz will not be felt, especially if you put on a good scope. Don't forget, you're already carrying a 40 oz binocs, ? lbs on your back, etc..... As an aside, a little weight helps you aim better, I picked up a carbon fiber barreled gun (don't remember which one) and didn't like it, way too muzzle light.

Even though I am short and fat, I like 270 Win, 7Rem, 7STW, 300 Win, 340 Wby, 375 H&H (coming soon), 416 Rigby.

Until both chambers and ammo are made without tolerances, something which I don't forsee in the near future, new cases fired in factory chambers will never be a reliably perfect fit, whether belted or no.

In fact, as the LARGEST ammo made within a specific SAAMI spec MUST be smaller than the smallest SAAMI spec chamber for that round, all you can count on is they will be close enough to each other to probably be safe.

I personally have a very small degree of preference for belted cases, but only because I like the belt as a positive stop which allows me to use borrowed handloaded ammo if absolutely necessary. (If not necessary, I wouldn't touch borrowed handloads with a 10-foot pole...) Still, if you hunt in remote, exotic, places, it is nice to be able to use whatever comes to hand, when your ammo is lost, stolen, confiscated, or whatever.

Also, from sectioning cases, I too have found the belted cases to often be thicker at the web than most non-belted cases of the same bore-size, and I like that. I also "feel" that additional brass around the base can't result in a weaker case if made with the same care, and more likely produces a stronger one.

If a person orders their own reamers and cuts their own chambers, there is no reason for there to be a sloppy fit of a belted case in a chamber, and no critical need to headspace on the shoulder. Cut a minimum depth belt recess, and turn the front of the belts on new brass to fit. Certainly more work, but afterward the headspace is retained just where one wants it, even if the shoulder is accidentally set back too far during resizing. Of course, there is no need to do that if using a non-belted case, but then there IS the need to make sure the dies are always adjusted correctly....a good policy in any event, but a required one with non-belted cases.


As to feeding, if one doubts the difference between feeding a short fat case and a long skinny one, watch closely the feeding of a .223 WSSM vs. a .224 Wby. While it is true a good gunsmith will make either feed pretty much flawlessly, it can take a lot more time to make the short fat one feed equally as reliably, and time is money as everyone knows......

Anyway, if anyone is giving away rifles, I'll take either the short-fat chambered ones, or the long-belted ones, with glee...and thanks!!

Hey Buckshot, It has been a good while since I've tried H4831 in my 7mmRemMag. I do have afew jugs around here and I'll stick that on the "Things to do" list.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
As far as saving weight,...

Hey FMC, I've been loosing a good bit of personal tonnage. But happened to think about what you are saying just last week.

Quite often we see folks tell others to just go loose some weight - say 4 pounds - and your 10# rifle will be like carrying a 6# rifle.

Well, I have some REALLY BAD news for all the folks that believe it, a 10# rifle STILL carries like a 10# rifle, even if you loose 80#.

Best of luck to all you folks.

They forgot to tell you lift some weights and build up some muscle mass while losing the stored energy.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Well, I have some REALLY BAD news for all the folks that believe it, a 10# rifle STILL carries like a 10# rifle, even if you loose 80#.

LOL



....................DJ

Hey Ireload2, I like your thoughts about the 7x57 Mauser.
I load mine up to 2900 fps+ with 140 grain bullets.
I have had lots of 7 mags and I like them alot, but where I live it's not needed.If I feel the need for something a little bigger, I will take the .338 mag afield.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
They forgot to tell you lift some weights and build up some muscle mass while losing the stored energy.

Hey Dwight, That is absolutely correct that muscle mass needs to be increased as you go along.

Only thing is I was loosing it so quickly that lifting weights and lots of exercising still wouldn't keep up with the amount of loss. But I seem to have leveled off for awhile which is doing exactly what you mentioned - adding muscle mass.

This "loose skin" sure makes an old man look old!