Hello, all. I am a total newcomer to shooting sports and especially reloading. Getting into it very late (turned 60 last week) but perceived the need to be able to put lead downrange for what I see as coming troubles.

I want/need to reload to 1) reduce the cost of ammunition for my primary weapon (FNAR semi-auto 308 Win/7.62X51 NATO) which is around $0.40/round if I can find the surplus to buy and 2) assure an ammo supply after SHTF. Note: I know than many (most?) will call me a wacko/idiot/meathead for believing that TEOTWAWKI is just around the corner but that's OK. I'm not here to be friends with you extremely knowledgeable folks, but to learn from you.

Intro aside, here is my question: Will you recommend a good basic primer on DVD covering reloading basics. It would ideally include terminology, procedures, instructions on determining which power to use and how much and other topics. I am starting from scratch here. Hopefully you folks will be willing to share your expertise.

Thank you in advance.

Hi welcome to AR...I would recommend you start with books, Reloading books have all the info you need and starting load data. Be carefull what you read and find on the net some of it is good some bad.
lyman has a pretty good book for beginners. It has a good basic core of information in it ,a little history, up through troubleshooting and load developement.
Dave

Try to get a couple of old (cheap) reloading manuals and read up on the basics. They come out with new manuals every couple of years because data in them changes due to introduction of new components, but the basics are pretty constant.

If you can send me a PM, I may be able to loan you some of my old books.

I have been reloading center fire rifles for over 15 yeras. The best advise I got were the following

Start with the Lyman relaoding manual. Do not get confused with multiple manuals until you get some experience

Find a friend with reloading experience and watch him work for a day or two. Check his habits with the recommendations in the manual

Also buy a chronograph - A shooting chrony F1 is good enough

Always target good accuracy and safe loads. I never try to get the extra 50 or 100 fps if the load shoots really well.

Good luck and safe shooting.

"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."

I'd spend the money on buying up cheap ammo. Otherwise, listen to Nakihunter (imagine that!)

Reloading is no longer for cheap ammo, unless you average the cost out over ten years or so and stick with only one caliber. Mainly we reload for accuracy or to shoot a lot more for the same outlay. 300 bucks to get started properly.

2 cents there

I suggest the Lyman manual, along with a friend who reloads that you can watch or ask questions of. I guess I was lucky my father taught both my sister and I to reload as kids.

A DVD shows you the basic mechanics and isn't a bad idea for a newbie. But it won't replace a good manual for details.

I also recommend the 47th edition Lyman book.

In addition, the rule-of-thumb is to have the manual for whomever's bullets you are using, and the powder manual if the powder company who's product you are using you sells one.

Just a couple of points to remember.....

Once you start reloading, one tends to get VERY analytical! I have not met a single reloader who does not analyze a LOT! So it is also possible to get confused and make mistakes when comparing differnt sources of data.

Hence my below comments

Stay with the Lyman manual until you get confident

This the ONLY MANUAL for multiple bullets and powders with pressure data - in other words all the analysis is already done and incorporated in the data

Read and understand the little bits / micro details about pressure - Importance of case length trimming, bullet seating depth (from the lands), head space, measuring case lenth and over all cartridge length correctly with the right tools.

Always use a chronograph and start with loads 5% reduced and work up to the published velocity

REMEMBER - your rifle is unique and may show pressure signs with lower or higher charge of powder.

MY Thumb rule - as long as I use the published load WITH OUT changing any components, AND the chronograph is showing the correct velocity, then I assume that the pressure level is also correct (IRRESPECTIVE of the powder charge).

I NEVER TRY TO GET HIGHER VELOCITY THAN THE PUBISHED DATA EVEN IF THE POWDER CHARGE IS LESS

Good luck and have fun.


PS.....ONE MORE point - you will definitely meet guys who claim to get 100 fps more than book data with their special loads. Keep away from such people even if it is your dad! Such guys are a walking time bomb and will one day blow primers and get a face full of hot gas at the minimum. If that guy is unlucky, he will blow up a rifle along with some fingers and lose an eye.

"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."

RCBS has a good DVD that will take you through the basic's.

Go to Amazom.com and search for reloading books. Sometimes you can pickup a used or out of date reloading book very cheap. When you start reloading, do what the manual says.

Don't experiment, you can get into trouble real fast.

Once you read up on how to reload and look at the tools, you should not have any trouble.

I have been reloading for over 40 years and never had an accident.

MauserK98

I would also add that if you get stuck on something, ask on this forum. AR has a lot of knowledgeable reloaders. I've only been reloading for 3 years now but I asked a lot of questions on this forum when I wasn't sure of something.

Good advice to get books/manuals! IF your right and the SHTF--how are you going to play your video with no power or when you are away from same? For now videos are great--BUT???

All online- How to> RCBS Loading data/powder. Hodgdon Data Loading for Autos- Reloading for Semi-Autos and Service Rifles

Thanks for the sage advice all. R D, of course I will buy a good manual. No other way to get all the data I need. But for now I'd like to have a video to get me started or "introduced" to the whole field. I see no reason to believe that SHTF/TEOTWAWKI is truly IMMINENT - only approaching. I should have time both to acquire the equipment AND to become proficient with it.

I have no desire/interest to get "that extra 100 fps". I am also already (naturally) pretty freaking analytical. But I am coming at this from likely a totally different direction from you good folks. This is not - for me - a hobby or a pass time. This is literally deadly serious for me. I expect to have to throw lead downrange to protect kith and kin, hearth and home. To me it makes sense to stockpile not only complete ammunition, but the materials/supplies to reload AFTER hopping in the car and running down to the local gunshop for more ammo becomes a thing of the past.

And thank you for not calling me a wacko for believing that a revolution/civil war/TEOTWAWIK approaches. I appreciate it.

quote:

And thank you for not calling me a wacko for believing that a revolution/civil war/TEOTWAWIK approaches. I appreciate

Hell, With that you will fit in just fine.

Very wide selection of wackos in here. In fact, I may be the only sane one around.

quote:

Nakihunter wrote "Also buy a chronograph"

I'm not sure why I would need a chrono. I am not looking to wring maximum performance out of the rifle/ammo combination. I figured I'd find a suggested powder load/projectile combo and stick with it. Remember my goal is to 1) make it less expensive to shoot once I run out of the German MilSurp I already have and 2) (perhaps more importantly) to assure a supply of ammo after everything goes all Mad Max and I won't be able to head down to the local gunshop/range to get more ammo.

My rifle is pretty much guaranteed sub 1 MOA accuracy. I will be positively ECSTATIC to get sub FOUR MOA (hey! Remember, I am acquiring a skill at 60 that most of you acquired in your teens or possibly twenties. It ain't as easy to acquire a new skill at my age.) Right now, at 50 yds with a Remington 597 I can keep 6 out of 10 rounds in a 2" square. When I can do 10 out of 10 I will have achieved the 4 MOA needed to qualify at an Appleseed. Of course I'd FREAKING LOVE to be able to place 10 out of 10 in a 2" square at 200 yds. That'd be nearing the accuracy of the rifle. I figure it's gonna take a few hundred rounds to get me to that skill level.

So, exactly why might I need a chrono anyhow? What will it do for ME?

When I first started reloading I "copied" factory rounds. For example 7.62 x 51 is 2750 fps with a 147 grain, or .45 ACP is 850 with a 230 grain. So I knew my rounds were "average". At the same time, my groups were better than the factory round. The chronograph will also give you an indication of the consistancy of your hand loads. You will see that your Extreme Spreads (fastest to slowest rounds) and Statistical Deviation (a number based on the number of rounds fired and the velocity of each round) will be lower than milspec/milsurp ammo and some factory ammo.

You already realize the way to shoot better is to shoot more. That gets you ahead of the game.

Reloader 15 and a 150 grain bullet will do for target work. If you get hold of some Lake City brass at GI Brass or get a few boxes of Winchester white box that'll get you started. The Winchesters should last about five reloads, maybe more. So even with buying 5 boxes you'll recoup some of the price by reusing your brass.

B Mullins, without a chronograph, how would you know if your book load is safe in your rifle?

You asked for advise and I see that you are not a wacco! So just talk to other reloaders and read the manual - the front chapters before the load data.

The summary is that for the average guy who does not have pressure testing equipment, a chronograph is the best tool to ensure that the ammo meets spec - if your velocity is high, your pressure is also high! If you load up a book load without a chronograph and your rifle has a unique issue with that load, you will never know it! You can get a F1 for about $100 I think. Shooting Chrony even sell refurbished units (old box and new guts) for a bargain.

For example, my Tikka LSA 55 in 222Rem is a tack driver. Early in my realoding career, I used the standard safe load but with Federal brass. On the 3rd shot I blew a primer. If I had a chronograph, the first shot would have warned me that I was way too hot for the differnet brand of brass! After 16 years, I still have the remaining 17 rounds from that box of 222 rem ammo! I need to pull the bullets one of these days!

Nakihunter wrote:

quote:

I used the standard safe load but with Federal brass. On the 3rd shot I blew a primer.

From your warning, I would guess that the critical variable was the use of Federal (as opposed to another mfr.) brass. What is different about Federal brass so as to result in higher chamber(?) pressures? Does that mean that the same bullet/power load with someone else's brass would do differently? How does that work? Different (in this case smaller?) internal dimensions in the case of Federal brass? I'm not a physics maven but I understand Bernouli's law.

And how would I know from the chrono what the pressure was? Would the manual have given me an expected muzzle velocity (VsubM) that would have been lower than the reading on the chrono?

I'm sorry but I have a learning disability that just about precludes rote learning. I have to "understand" the process. The upside is that once I have understood and stored the process I have it at my fingertips essentially for life. I still remember Frost's "Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening" that I learned a couple of weeks before Oswald (or whomever) shot Jack Kennedy.

This is one of the places I asked the very same question about 5 years ago. Nakihunter is right on with his suggestions from what I read on this forum then. I found factory ammo that was accurate and apparently safe in my rifles and used the chrono to get an idea of what speeds they were running. Comparing what the Lyman manual listed for speeds and safe pressures with loads in the same speed range as factory ammo I then used the chrono to double check. It's worked very well for me with much appreciation going to this forum.

I read everything I could get my hands on and had a friend that reloads help me out. It not only makes shooting more affordable, it gives you an opportunity to make very accurate ammo for your rifles or handguns.

Ken....

B Mullins, mature men like the BeeMan and I like taking younger guys like you under our wings for guidance, you will be fine here but you may have to question some of our eager to help but younger, less experienced guys.

I agree that the EOTWAWKI is lifting above the horizon. World wide, it looks exactly like a Book I read that predicts how the downward curve of history would be so you are by no means nuts. But while I am sorta prepaired I don't much sweat it. I have an alternative to going through the worst of it; thank the Lord. I expect to be outta here before the big SHTF days!


I will take the liberty of pasting in the following list of starter tools I just typed out for another noob. Consider buying these for great performance at a reasonable price:

Lee's Classic Cast or Classic Turret presses.
Lee's Delux or Pacesetter dies
Lee's simple case trimmer tools

Redding's 3BR powder measure, stand and trickler

Dillon's beam scale (made by Ohaus, same as RCBS but less costly)

Berry's impact type bullet puller (You WILL make mistakes and saving components saves money!)

A Lyman, Hornady or Lee loading manual for good beginner insructions as well as a wide variety of loading data. Just ONE book is plenty for a noob, more just causes unneeded confusion to new guys. (I ONLY used a Lyman #43 for about 5 years before buying my second book and then only because interesting new cartridges and new powders had come available.)


Small tools you will need, of any brand:

6" precison dial caliper; powder funnel; case loading blocks to fit your cartridges; case debur/chamfer tool; Redding's Imperial die wax OR Hornady's Unique case lube (applied with your finger tips, not a dirty, gritty lube pad).

Later you may wish to add a case cleaning tumbler, look at Berry's/Cabela's. And media type, cob or nut, won't really matter at all, nor will the type of polish if you want to fool with that. (I used case polish years ago but soon quit. Dried excess polish is what really csuses most of the 'lead dust' so many guys fear. All that really matters is getting your cases clean and plain media - or just a hand wipe - does that very well.)

There is a small ton of esotoric tools available for special tasks and high accuracy work but they are optional and few reloaders need them. Stay away from the extras and keep it basic until you get well grounded in the process. When you start to tell yourself, "I wish I had something to make this job easier" is when you will need to look at the other things!

As a longtime loader, I agree w/ most of what has been posted. Even today, I'm still learning. Get the latest Lyman manual and read it to get an idea of the reloading process. Then READ it again for detail. Once you have an understanding of the process, you can download the Hodgdon, Alliant and other manuals. Do your homework and you should be safe and happy.

Thanks for the replies, all. Jim, I am waiting for a check from the bank for some back stuff someone owes me. A small part of that is going to equip me for reloading. Since I expect to be shooting off 100 rounds or so every weekend once I switch back to the FNAR (I am working towards 4 MOA and am about there) so I figure it is worth it to buy the turret press with 4 holes. It can de-prime, prime, load power, seat bullet and crimp with 4 pulls of the handle - once I get proficient with the equipment (heh, heh).

With your permission, I would like to PM you the shopping list I have already compiled and you can correct it. Please let me know.

I am looking seriously at a Lee's manual since that is the manufacturer of the equipment I intend to get. Small tools I am going to get either online or at the local Harbor Freight store. I can get a decent 6" digital caliper for $10.

Naki (or anybody else), I'd really like to understand why changing to a different brand of brass would affect pressures so.

Also, what IS a "naki" anyhow and why would one wish to hunt them? Also, what class weapon is need to hunt naki? (Inquiring minds want to know. <wink>

quote:

Originally posted by B Mullins:
I'd really like to understand why changing to a different brand of brass would affect pressures so.

The internal dimensions vary, manufacturer to manufacturer. The volume of the combustion chamber varies, changing pressures.

The other guys have the reloading advise down. Let me suggest learning to garden and can food.

Good questions... & I am the same - I need to understand in simple step by step terms or I'll forget.

The brass issue is about change of ANY component. In this case the Federal brass might have been a bit harder, less case capacity etc. and so the pressure created inside was higher and had to follow least path of resistance, which is the primer. If you used the book load but changed the bullet brand, you could land up with the same problem - the bearing surface of differnt bullets are differnt, the total lenth of the bullets are also diffent and the alloy of the jacket is different - all these lead to change in pressure.

The Lyman manual has data that specifies the brass brand, poweder brand / type & charge, bullet brand, type & weight and primer. It also has the pressure test data - often in both old CUP & current PSI meaurements as well as velocity. The 2 methods of measuring pressure are not comparable in normal mathematical terms. So do not try to do so. It is enough to know that the maximum load / pressure / velocity are tested. Remeber that if the brass is not trimmed to the correct length, you can spike up pressure pretty seriously.

NOW - for the average shooter, we can measure the powder charge and the bullet velocity but NOT pressure. We know that the velocity has a direct correlation to both powder charge & pressure. You will not get the same velocity for that combination without the relevant pressure. But you could achieve that pressure with more or less of the same powder - simply because your rifle may have a slightly tigher or looser chamber though it is with in industry spec. That is why a chronograph is so useful - just follow the data with sarting loads and keep increasing by 1 grain until you get great accuracy & the book velocity - then STOP. In all cases, you still need to keep track of other factors like bolt lift, case head condition for signs of brass being sheared by the extractor groove etc. You may then need to tweek the bullet seating depth etc. to fine tune accuracy. This gives you the peace of mind to know that you are operating within safe parameters and not taking any undue risks.

As you get more confident, you will be able to compare books, change bullets etc. and still operate within safe margins. For example the Nosler manual is a good one but it does not have pressure data. But with some experience & confidence, you can experiment a bit and know the limits within which to change specs. There is ALWAYS a risk in doing this - as per my earlier example of the Federal brass - but with experience you will keep learning and improving.

Have fun

quote:

Originally posted by B Mullins:
Nakihunter wrote:

quote:

I used the standard safe load but with Federal brass. On the 3rd shot I blew a primer.

From your warning, I would guess that the critical variable was the use of Federal (as opposed to another mfr.) brass. What is different about Federal brass so as to result in higher chamber(?) pressures? Does that mean that the same bullet/power load with someone else's brass would do differently? How does that work? Different (in this case smaller?) internal dimensions in the case of Federal brass? I'm not a physics maven but I understand Bernouli's law.

And how would I know from the chrono what the pressure was? Would the manual have given me an expected muzzle velocity (VsubM) that would have been lower than the reading on the chrono?

I'm sorry but I have a learning disability that just about precludes rote learning. I have to "understand" the process. The upside is that once I have understood and stored the process I have it at my fingertips essentially for life. I still remember Frost's "Stopping by the Woods on a Snowy Evening" that I learned a couple of weeks before Oswald (or whomever) shot Jack Kennedy.

bja105, already have books on canning and growing gardens. Also starting to stockpile seed. Additionally I have a good book on hide tanning and different tanning solutions - although the ones that don't use chemicals (which one would expect to be difficult/impossible to get post SHTF) are based in urine and such.

If I understand you, Naki, I start with the minimum recommended powder loads and work up to the VsubM I want. And I do my best to make damned sure that all my stockpiled brass, projectiles and primers are from the same manufacturer. That way I don't have to figure numbers for several variations. Bottom line - add a chrono to the shopping list.

BTW, I ordered a copy of the Lee manual 2nd edition. Supposed to be a 3rd edition coming out this fall (according to the Lee factory store website) but I don't figure there'll be that much change. Besides I found a new hardbound copy on eBay for $21 including shipping. It beat anything I could find on Amazon or Barnes&Noble.

C'mon, Naki. What is a "naki" and why do you hunt them?

I am from the Naki - Taranaki - like the mountain - fficial&prmd=ivnsm&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=VPxpToC9LqetiAe3_4yyBA&ved=0CEQQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=798" target="_blank">http://www.google.co.nz/search...sAQ&biw=1280&bih=798

great area, just love it here. I live on a one acre property with a reasonable 4 bedroom home & a tripple garage workshop. great for the kids to grow up in. Just 2 minutes to the local shops and 8 minutes to town.

Yes - the basic idea is to develop the right loads and stock up on all the components. For single load development, just borrow a friends chronograph. You only need the chronograph for developing new loads and for changing components / experimenting.

BTW - you forgot the Lyman manual - that is a MUST for a start. Keep the Lee manual until next year!!! The Lyuman manual is the ONLY one with pressure data AND multiple powders AND multiple bullets. It is also the ONLY manual with pressure data in both PSI & CUPs. PLUS - the guideline chapters are among the best.

quote:

Originally posted by B Mullins:
bja105, already have books on canning and growing gardens. Also starting to stockpile seed. Additionally I have a good book on hide tanning and different tanning solutions - although the ones that don't use chemicals (which one would expect to be difficult/impossible to get post SHTF) are based in urine and such.

If I understand you, Naki, I start with the minimum recommended powder loads and work up to the VsubM I want. And I do my best to make damned sure that all my stockpiled brass, projectiles and primers are from the same manufacturer. That way I don't have to figure numbers for several variations. Bottom line - add a chrono to the shopping list.

BTW, I ordered a copy of the Lee manual 2nd edition. Supposed to be a 3rd edition coming out this fall (according to the Lee factory store website) but I don't figure there'll be that much change. Besides I found a new hardbound copy on eBay for $21 including shipping. It beat anything I could find on Amazon or Barnes&Noble.

C'mon, Naki. What is a "naki" and why do you hunt them?

quote:

I am from the Naki - Taranaki

Ah, I see. A Kiwi. Excellent. Gorgeous country there.

So you are a "Naki" who is a hunter as opposed to a hunter of Nakis. Sorry. My mistake.

quote:

For single load development, just borrow a friends chronograph. You only need the chronograph for developing new loads and for changing components / experimenting.

I will probably bite the bullet for a chrono (likely used) anyway since my FNAR is gas operated and I might need to adjust the gas port to get consistent Vm. Also, I will be developing standard loads for my 2 .40S&W (something tells me I will have to fine tune the loads for EACH pistol; something which would NEVER have occurred to me prior to coming to AR) and my wife's .380ACP. Could also have to develop standard loads for .223 and 9mm.

quote:

Originally posted by B Mullins:
So, exactly why might I need a chrono anyhow? What will it do for ME?

Although I do have a chrony, you DONT need a chronograph.

They are very usefull, especialy in working up a load. But even that can be done without a Chrony. You can watch for the usual pressure signs as you are working up and then by doing so know when to back off, just as reloaders used to do it before chronographs were available to the general public. You will NOT know your velocity though. You can speculate and make an educated guess, but you might be way off.

Chronys are very usefull, they can show spikes in velocity that you might otherwise be unaware of, which is itself a sign of excessive pressure, but they most certianly are not essential.

Part of the reason for getting a manual is to learn about pressure signs.

My suggestion is to get what is essential, USE the manual, load without fear (because you are following said manual), and then if you so choose add a Chrony when you are able.

The cost of getting started can be overwhelming, especialy when you add all the components.

Oh, and dont sweat the "nut job" thing, we are all gun nuts here..

quote:

Originally posted by B Mullins:

quote:

For single load development, just borrow a friends chronograph. You only need the chronograph for developing new loads and for changing components / experimenting.

I will probably bite the bullet for a chrono (likely used) anyway since my FNAR is gas operated and I might need to adjust the gas port to get consistent Vm. Also, I will be developing standard loads for my 2 .40S&W (something tells me I will have to fine tune the loads for EACH pistol; something which would NEVER have occurred to me prior to coming to AR) and my wife's .380ACP. Could also have to develop standard loads for .223 and 9mm.

As was stated by Wstrnhuntr you don't NEED a chrono but it is a handy piece of equipment. That said, a used one isn't necessary either as the Competition Electronics Pro Chrono can be had for about $100 or one of the Shooting Chrono models for $85 and up. I prefer the Pro Chrono simply because it's a one piece unit (it doesn't fold up). They can be had for well over $200 as well. Again, I just use it to have an idea of the neighborhood of the speeds in both factory ammo and hand loads.

Ken....