Ok, I'm interested in appling the "often imitated, never duplicated" Creighton Audette Method of load testing to handgun velocities. Take note I did not say handgun calibers. Does anyone know if calibers meant for long tubes but fired from 10"-15" tubes will have the same outcome?

Now, let me clarify "outcome". What I mean is: you will come to a determining load and/or loads while appling the process to a rifle. Will the same process show the same results as it applies to a handgun. (bottleneck cases not straight wall cases).

Another clarification: I don't mean will a .308 load in a rifle print the same as a .308 load in a handgun. I'm generalizing outcomes - using this process, is it possible to apply it to handguns?

Point #2 - my calibers in question are being used from 100 to 300+ yards. Yes, I do shoot 300 yards, and have access to a range with that distance.

Let's talk about this, and I could greatly use a link to somewhere that explains the Creighton Audette Method in detail.

I prefer this topic not turn into a "my way is better battle" - I need good solid advise here.

Truth of the matter is I need something to do at the range this summer - YEAH RIGHT!

Try this link for a synopsis of the Audette or "ladder" method:

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Laddertest.htm#Laddertest

You can develop in that manner, and if all goes well, I will be among the first to congratulate you.

If it does not, please click on the link in my signature line which will take you to my website, and you'll find the OCW load development instructions there...

Do let us know how things go!

Best of luck

Dan

You, my friend, are relentless! (that's a good thing) I've been there, copied, and will try it. I'm looking for other avenues so I may make my own, unbiased determinations.

No problem, I don't blame you at all... You may actually get the ladder method to serve your purpose.

Thanks, and best of luck--seriously...

Dan

I'll be watching for any results you post as I'm close to acquiring a Contender with a 223 16" barrel and a 30-30 14" barrel. I really hadn't even given a thought to 300 yd shooting a still am doubtful especially with the 30-30, but maybe the 223?

Dave

Dave said:"I'll be watching for any results you post as I'm close to acquiring a Contender with a 223 16" barrel and a 30-30 14" barrel. I really hadn't even given a thought to 300 yd shooting a still am doubtful especially with the 30-30, but maybe the 223?"

Why don't you think the 30-30 will shoot at 300 yards? I used to do a lot of shooting at the rifle range at Fort Ord (was range officer for 2 years) We had a steel plate 12 inchs high and 18 inches wide hanging out at 385 yards. I used to shoot at it with a Ruger blackhawk 45 convertable using 45 ACP match ammo. Could usually hit it from 2 to 3 times out of 5 shots. Once hit it 4 of 5. Now your 30-30 shoots a lot flatter than a 45 ACP does.

t bob,

More of a limitation I'm going to put on myself than the round. I figure to use the 30-30 on deer and the max range I intend to start out with is 150 to 200 yds. I owe that much to the deer.

We'll see after I get more experience with the handgun and the caliber. I've shot 223 enough to have more confidence in it and myself, also plan to make it into a carbine for the 223 much more confidence in that setup.

Dave

T/C nimrod: "Does anyone know if calibers meant for long tubes but fired from 10"-15" tubes will have the same outcome?...Will the same process show the same results as it applies to a handgun?..."

HC: Yes and maybe. How good the results are depends somewhat on the amount of Trigger Time a person has. Being able to get into the same level of concentration, hold and squeeze from shot to shot just isn't an "inherent human trait" but must be acquired. And it must be "maintained" through practice.

By that I mean for "me" to run the, " "often imitated, never duplicated" Creighton Audette Method ", on one of my revolvers or pistols right now would be comedy of the highest degree. Given 3 months of heavy Range time and I'd be ready to try Mr. Audette's Method at about 50yds.

Pistols are simpler to do than revolvers because of the revolver's "multiple chambers". In revolvers, it is important to Benchmark the individual chambers early on to make sure you don't have one(or more) skewing the results.

T/C nimrod: "Yes, I do shoot 300 yards, and have access to a range with that distance."

HC: Good for you and bad for the Game.

T/C nimrod: "I prefer this topic not turn into a "my way is better battle" - I need good solid advise here."

HC: That's why I'm posting!

Dino32HR: "Well hell then, that just left out half the postings !! "

HC: Yee of little faith!

...

rifleman: "I figure to use the 30-30 on deer and the max range I intend to start out with is 150 to 200 yds. I owe that much to the deer."

HC: To save you all the time, a BIG ole Duuuuuhhh for me!

I spotted T/C nimrod's post yesterday and it caught me flatfooted. There are without a doubt reasons (cartridge/firearm combinations) "why" it makes more sense to perform the, " "often imitated, never duplicated" Creighton Audette Method ", at a distance less than 300yds.

Your 30-30 would be an excellent example as well as the 444Mar I recently swapped for(Duuuuuhhh).

Now, as to the distance they should be tested using the, " "often imitated, never duplicated" Creighton Audette Method ", I'd suggest that when using cartridges of those performance levels, 100yds does make good sense.

So, to be totally fair with green788, if he meant to "only" use his highly plagerized version of the " "often imitated, never duplicated" Creighton Audette Method ", for firearms used inside say 200yds, then (GULP) his recommendation to shoot the test at 100yd, I'd have to agree with it.(Anybody know how to make the word "agree" print smaller? )

For pistols/revolvers, 25yds would be an excellent starting point. As a person's skill improves, 50yds would separate the chaff from the wheat.

But, for cartridge/firearm combinations where their end use is l-o-n-g distance, then(of course) Mr. Audette's Method requirement is right on the nose.

Well, guys I'm gonna go at this from two(2) angles:
1) I have a 7-30 Waters flavored in 14" that has an outstanding load developed (by myself - so errors may be present) that will be "checked"
2) Have a 7mm TCU barrel (14" flavor) on its way that load development will be started with using the Creighton Audette Method.

Then just for laughs, verification, and my own curiousity we'll compare the OCW method against my findings.

Damn, now I have some work to do!! Bear with me - I'll post results as they are attained - and that may take some time, lot of snow here in PA right now.

Hot Core,

Gimme a break here, I get lambasted for not wanting to shoot the 30-30 @ 300 or as t bob shoots @ 385 yds, and then when I say max 150 to 200 you give me a "big Ole Duhhhhh". Maybe I misunderstand your post?

That 150 to 200 was just a throw in, I'll let my shooting on the range be a teller of my actual max range.

Seems I got no place to go here?

As I say, maybe I misunderstood the post, and if so, you have my permission to give me 50 lashes with a wet noodle.

Dave

[ 02-08-2003, 03:42: Message edited by: rifleman ]

Rifleman,

I didn't take Hotcore's statement as derisive--I took it to mean that it would be an obvious thing to do [to do the load development at the maximum intended range].

I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've become something of an expert at Hotcore's derision!

If he had intended to offend you he would have addressed his reply to any member other than you, and it would have gone something like this:

Hey T/C, I agree that "experienced" shooters would "Know" not to Rookie-ize the "often imitated Never duplicated" Audette method by Shooting closer than 300 Yards. After the "rifle-rookie" Gets some Real "Experience" he'll know More about how to "Develop" "Loads".
------------------------------------------------
Good hunting and clean, one shot punches below the belt--Hotcore.

[This message has been edited by Hotcore (edited 02-07-2002).]



Dan

Good

Yeah Dan,

As I said, maybe I misunderstood the post. These boards as far as communication are both a blessing and a curse.

Great places to excahnge good ideas, but also great places for misunderstandings to blossom also. Wish we could all sit down across the table over a cup of coffee to discuss this stuff. I think there would be alot less ruffled feathers. But then again ya never know how many black eyes and disorderly conduct charges might occur!

Dave

Has anyone used or is planning to use the Audette 'Ladder' method, OWC method, and/or Oehler's 43(or some other srain test) for investigating the pressure or ballistic potenials of the 7.5X55 Swiss in their military rifles? TIA

You know HotCore and green788, you two are going to be best friends very shortly!!

And you both live close enough to get together for a weekend of target blasting!!

Of course if I'm wrong........

I wish you both a quality weekend!!

Seriously, I've wondered about the possibility...

None of my other friends agree with me on much of anything anyway!

Dan

Maybe I'll just lurk for awhile and keep my mouth (computer) shut.

I'm really bustin at the seams to ask all kinds of questions, though. I picked up that Stainless Contender with a 14" 30-30 barrel and a 16" 223 barrel today.

Dave

C'mon Dave! Ask away... I promise to preface any of my answers with:

The opinions of green 788 are his own, and do not necessarily represent the views of Saeed, the Accurate Reloading staff, or other forum members, and may in fact be totally incorrect.



Dan

Gentlemen:
I have some targets and a digital camera that
I could take pics of. If someone could explain to me how to send pics to this site I would like to get some opinions on what part of the whip cycle
are these rounds going through. In this instance
the powder charge was kept the same (70gr.H-1000)
with 160gr.SPBT and CCI250 primers. New Win. brass
with only differances in bullet seating depths in
three round groups.(12 rounds total) There appears
to be some stringing and some slight arching in these groups. The groups are all located at different areas around POA. Some at 9'oclock, some at 2'oclock and some at center toward 8'oclock. These are 7mm rem mag fired from 26"
bbl. A-bolt at 100yds. I have marked each group
according to OAL. I seated one bullet deeper than
all the others and it is found by itself at
about the 10 o'clock position as a control. I think this clearly demonstrates the barrel timing
relationship to bullet seating depth. My question is, which one of these seating depths should I
use for further loading? They are all tight groups. Maybe I could download the pics to the web
but I'll need help here! Thanks..BLR7

BLR-7... The short answer is that you go to a photo hosting website, set up an account, download your photos, get a URL address for the photo, and insert that URL address into the text of your message, bracketed by [img] on the front end and [/img] at the end. No spaces.

Photo Island is one such image hosting website, but they have been down for over two days now...

The easy thing to do would be to email the images to me, and I'll put them up for you. Once they are posted, you can post below them.

I'll send you an email with my primary email address if you choose to do it this way.

(And you're right, by the way--seating depth definitely affects group size and location, precisely due to the effect on barrel time).

Dan

Texas,

Try this free one, problem free too. Check the link for details.
Photo thread.......instructions

Thanks for replies. I'm at work right now but I
will be home later tonight where I can use my computer to try and send the target pics. Sorry
but work calls first! BLR7.