About to purchase dies to reload for my Win Trapper carbine. Should I purchase 3 die set or is there advantage in the 4 die set that includes the factory crimp die

Absolutely. You must crimp 45 Colt rounds in order to get a good seal. Also, if you are going to load mor than onr at a time in your levergun, you have to avoid the bullets being pushed back as you load them. The FCD is one of the best inventions ever to hit reloading.
Pete

The Lee FCD for pistol calibers has a resizing ring that resizes the entire cartridge. Problem is, it squashes the bullet. At best, this is a useless feature and it is absolutely undesirable for cast bullets.

Furthermore, the FCD may actually reduce the bullet pull, not increase it. Using an inertia puller to test the crimp on a 44 mag dummy round, an FCD-crimped bullet would pull after only one or two whacks, compared to 40 or more whacks for a standard roll crimp. Plus, the FCD's resizing ring reduced the diameter of the bullet by several thou.

The collet-style FCD that Lee sells for rifle cartridges may indeed be a neat thing, but the resizing ring style FCD is one of the worst inventions to ever hit reloading.

If you want the best of all worlds, get the REDDING titanium carbides with a profile crimp die that will both taper crimp and roll crimp your handload at the same time. REDDINGS will cost you more$, but precision usually does. When I say precision, I am referring to the tight tolerances REDDING dies are machined to and the hardness of the steel from which they are machined. The carbide ring in the REDDING sizer die is Titanium Carbide, not tungsten carbide, or titanium nitride that Hornady uses.

I haven't tested the Redding Profile Crimp, but any taper crimp is bad news for oversize cast bullets in a revolver cartridge, because it will squash the bullet. There have been a couple of reports of squashed cast bullets with Hornady pistol dies, which I'm told have a combo roll & taper crimp. It probably wouldn't be an issue for the Win 94 45 LC since it has a 0.452" groove, but why fool around with the "new improved" crimp dies when an ordinary roll crimp works fine?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with an ordinary roll crimp except that you have to trim cases from time to time to maintain a consistent case length, otherwise shorter cases will crimp too lightly while longer cases will crimp too hard and may even buckle.

I happen to use standard Redding dies, the old fashioned kind with an ordinary roll crimp. They work fine except that the expander pilot diameter was too big and had to be turned down, a problem common to all brands of dies. My humble suggestion is to use a standard 3-die set from Redding, RCBS, or Lee, and stay away from any die that has a resizing ring or that applies a tapered crimp. A light crimp is all that is required for lever guns.

Perhaps a taper crimp is necessary or useful for ACP cartridges, though it seems to me it would still be prone to squash the bullet and this would not be desireable for for cast bullets.

The REDDING profile crimp die doesn't use a ring insert and the taper crimp it applies is only to insure concentric uniformity to go with the roll crimp that it provides also. Different powders require different levels of bullet pull for optimum performance. Typically, carbines and rifles are not as dependent on bullet pull as a handgun because of the longer distance for complete powder combustion. The slightly smaller diameter of the casemouth after using the profile crimp die can also enhance feed reliability.

You say taper crimp is bad news for oversize cast bullets in revolver cartridges, I feel it is better said as overcrimping is bad news period. If you are shooting high velocity hardcast bullet loads in pistols, typically .001" larger than actual bore diameter is as much overdiameter as needed to assure a proper gas seal. The larger you go in diameter over the actual bore, the lighter the powder charges should be to prevent overpressure cartridges. Personally .002" is the limit for me.

I don't think I've ever seen a reloading manual advise you not to taper crimp cast bullet loads unless the bullet was oversized to the point that no crimp was necessary at all. Taper crimp can and should be adjusted for the diameter of bullet you are using as well as the specific cartridge case. There is a very simple formula for determining taper crimp: Case wall thickness X 2 + bullet diameter- amount of desired crimp. Most cases vary from the dimensions given in a reloading manual and this will allow you to find an accurate Taper crimp for the specific cases used. If I use a hard cast cast bullet .001" above bore diameter I am only going to taper crimp by .001" below casemouth diameter after seating. If it is a JHP, I'll go to .002" of taper crimp for the .40 S&W and .45 ACP and .0015" for the 9mm. All autoloading pistol cartridges should be tested for adequate crimp to prevent bullet setback. If you don't know the actual internal diameter of the case you are using, based on actual case wall thickness, that .002" oversized bullet may or may not be oversized for the case you are using. Even with a proper sized expander. Case diameter is controlled on the outside of the case in reloading dies with the expander sizing internally at slightly under bullet diameter so that interference fit is still established, but without regard to nominal casewall thickness.

The REDDING profile crimp die is not splitting the crimping chores between two types of crimp. The interference fit from bulletshank to casewall contact also effects bullet pull. Concentricity of the interference fit is vital, even in the abscence of any crimp. The taper crimp applied by the profile crimp die is only very slightly more than what occurs in the seating die to return the case back to spec. Most reloaders that use them, other than myself have found that the profile crimp die will aid in ballistic uniformity verifiable by standard deviation readings on your chronograph as well as a more accurate round.

Cavebob,

By all means go with the Lee Factory Crimp Die. I own dies from all the manufacturers and there isn't one that makes a better crimp die than Lee! One of the main advantages with a Lee Factory Crimp Die that others don't have is a Carbide insert sizer ring that sizes the FINISHED ROUND to assure that it will fit any chamber! You can apply all the crimp you want, and will never buckle a case. I have them in all the calibers that I reload for. For the money they are the best thing going. Bill T.

quote:

typically .001" larger than actual bore diameter is as much overdiameter as needed to assure a proper gas seal. The larger you go in diameter over the actual bore, the lighter the powder charges should be to prevent overpressure cartridges. Personally .002" is the limit for me.

The optimal cast bullet diameter is sometimes quite a bit larger than the groove diameter. For example, I had a S&W 44 with 0.4335" throats that liked oversize bullets despite the 0.430" groove (0.4325" was the practical maximum without turning case necks). Yet the Lee FCD reduced the bullet diameter to 0.430". Furthermore the Lee FCD REDUCED THE BULLET PULL.

The bottom line is that any crimp die that sizes the FINISHED CARTRIDGE, will also size the portion of the bullet that is inside the case. Do you want to be able to control the bullet diameter, or do you want the crimp die to leave you with an undersize bullet?

It's a no-brainer.

I have Lee FCD for all my handgun ctgs. The size ring never touches the case unless there is a bulge in the case ar the base. As far as sizing down the bullet it dosen't even touch the case at that point.
Lyle

quote:

Originally posted by YUMAN:
I have Lee FCD for all my handgun ctgs. The size ring never touches the case

So in other words, with your loads the FCD behaves the same as any other roll crimp die. No better and no worse. So the advantage is ....... ????????

Get the Hornady dies and the Redding Profile crimp die. Both work great. Jay

QUOTE:
"The optimal cast bullet diameter is sometimes quite a bit larger than the groove diameter. For example, I had a S&W 44 with 0.4335" throats that liked oversize bullets despite the 0.430" groove (0.4325" was the practical maximum without turning case necks). Yet the Lee FCD reduced the bullet diameter to 0.430". Furthermore the Lee FCD REDUCED THE BULLET PULL."

You're describing an optimum for a particular revolvers throat, not showing any advantage for a cast bullet to be excessively large for the bore and also ignoring pressure increases that will come with unnecessarily oversized bullets, because your revolver requires you to use them rather than considering the broader spectrum of loading in general. I believe the original subject had something to do with a Trapper Carbine. Your problem with the LEE die, I can sympathize with, but I don't use or recommend LEE Dies. If they're working for someone, great. Maybe you should try the Profile crimp die rather than point out problems that are only relative to your own revolver.