I got a Sinclair concentricity gauge.

My handloads and factory ammo that give me the best groups also have the least run out.

OK, I'm a believer, but making concentric ammo is not easy.
I spent one hour on one piece of .303 Brit brass. The numbers for the neck ranged from .0015 to .012" as I tried various ways of using a Lee RGB sizing die.
I tried a .305" pin gauge and bending the neck and I tried annealing.
I kept getting worse.

Then I tried 257 Roberts Ackley improved with Forester dies. The formed brass was typically .0015" at the neck, but worse from sizing to .003", but got better from seating to .002" and the bullet's ogive was at .0015"

Now there are so many variables that I don't know what is causing what.
Maybe the Lee die has a canted neck, but the error is less than brass hysteressis, so I can only see it the frist time.

Hello Clark,

Instead of trying to load it concentric, maybe you should consider making it concentric after it is loaded.

Ron Hoehn has a fixture that measures concentricity, and then you straighten it by tapping on the neck with a lever:
http://benchrest.com/hoehn/html/press_release.html

Regards, Bill

[ 10-03-2002, 20:04: Message edited by: Bill M ]

It's been my experience that the sizing stem on a factory die is rarely "in the middle of the die".
Think about it........ the sizing ball (except on foresters) is quite aways away from the threads that hold it. What are the odds that at that point they are quite a bit off center?--Id say pretty darn good. Remember--were all shooting for .003" runnout which is less variance than the thicknes of a sheet of computer paper.

TO "FINE TUNE" the sizing stems I start with a reloading project of about 40 shells. Size 3 shells and see how runnout is.
If not great give the sizing stem a small turn of
about 1/20 of a complete turn and retighten.
Try 3 more and see how they are.
If not good give another small turn.
Try three more or go back and redo the first
shells.
Keep doing this and eventually you will find the
"SWEET SPOT" and get minimal runnout on the sized
brass.
Sometime during this you might loosen and retighten the lock ring on the die too--I've seen that help ever so slightly.

I hope the above makes sense--it has worked well for me on all brands of dies---and I've seen all brands work poorly right out of the box until tuning with this way.

good luck d kraky

Clark,
I ran into the same thing, and found a couple solutions.
First, I free-floated the expander in the sizing die. I use a thick, rubber washer from a faucet repair kit, installed between the die body and the lock nut. The nut holds the adjustment, but the rubber washer allows the expander to wiggle slightly, so it finds the center of the cartridge neck on its way out without exerting side pressure.
Second, I had trouble with Remington brass, but found everything I loaded with Winchester brass all had .002" to .004" runout. The brass thickness in the necks was very uniform in the Winchester brass, and very irregular with the Remington brass. Outside neck turning helped a lot, although it doesn't do much for case life.
Now, I go with Winchester brass whenever I can.
Regards, George.

George:

Would you mind a giving a couple of details? How thick is the washer? How tight against the washer do you turn the nut?

Thanks

JimF

Clark, there's a couple holes in my benchtop that look like they are about 3/8". I stick the bullets in one of those with the high spot towards me and bend the cartridge. It usually takes a couple goes, but I don't stop until the bullet runout is under .003". I'll let you know how they shoot.

Free-float the shellholder. Remove the clip that holds the shellholder in place and replace it with a rubber O-ring.

ZM

I have had the best results removing the expander completely from my redding dies and sizing all of my cases. then using the floating expander button reinstall the expander and run the cases back into the die just far enough to go over the expander ball and then back out. this seems to give me the best results. you still will find one every once in a while that has a small amount of runout. I usually just resize these and recheck runout. if still to much i just use these for fouling loads after i clean. with this system i can usually get 90% of my sized cases around .001" to .0015" runout on the neck, with carefull seating in a redding competition seating die you should be able to hold the runout to a very small number. my $.02 worth. good shooting

Somehow turning the expander stem this way and that and finding a sweetspot seems difficult to equate runout with a button thats supported on a stem from far away.

I offer that the uniformity of the neck wall thickness would have an effect on runout and so would the uniformity of the lubricant in the neck.

CLARK,
I've found a simple way of correcting this problem. First I use a universal decapping die to remove all primers. I then run a case all the way into the sizing die and adjust the expander button stem up until the button touches the inside of the case. I then lower the expander button until about half the case neck is still in the die and comes into contact with the expander button. With the neck in the die and on the expander button I then tighten the stem lock nut. The button is held in line by the die and cannot cause a misalignment of the neck. I've found that the lower the expander button is in the die, the greater the margin or possible error. This method of decapping also allows me to clean the primer pockets prior to tumbling the cases. With the expander button so close to the top of the die the press arm is still in the position of maximum leverage when the neck passes over the button and is done much easier. I hope that this is of some help. Good luck.

Howdy Clark,

Kraky and Don are on the right track. There is indeed a sweet spot in dies without the rubber washer. It can be difficult to find, and it can be frustrating to locate, but it IS there. A bigger concern is the amount and type of lubricant on the inside of the necks. In my experience, I got the best results from lightly greasing the inside of the necks with a nylon brush SPARSLY loaded with a good lube. Mica has not been as effective for me. It has further been my experience, that the size and tightness of the rubber washer is not as important as the fact that it can center itself. I personally use neoprene "O" rings from the local hardware store on nearly all of my sizer dies. Oh, one more thing, if I can get .002 neck run out, I'm elated!!! My best Forster dies with all the tricks I know will beat that every time, but only a few other dies will come close without considerable "tinkering!"

Hope this helps some; good luck and good shooting.

Coach

Some great information, guys. It's good to be in knowledgable company.

I've noted the same thing with Winchester and Remington brass as George noted. I, too, stay with Winchester cases now, as they are much more consistent. The .223 Reminton brass is especially crappy!

The Lee Collet dies are awesome at making good, straight ammo. They are a bit tricky to set correctly, but when you've got them right, they'll perform as well as a 100 dollar set of dies. Mine give .002" or less with good brass.

Studies have shown that .004" of runout is as good as no runout in most cases. Runout, if extreme, basically causes the bullet to deform a bit when it enters the throat, and this induces a wobble that continues for a while after the bullet exits the muzzle.

At longer ranges with heavier bullets, the bullet will stabilize to a large degree. Normally, when you have a load that is over MOA at 200 yards and closer, but tightens up at extreme range, you have a bullet that began flight with a considerable amount of "wobble" induced by either high runout or incompatible barrel twist rate.

I've shot a few groups at 400 yards which came in a 1/2 MOA in spite of some of the rounds having runout over .007". I wanted to test the effect of runout at 400 yards, and found it not to be as much of a factor at this range.

At ranges of 100 to 200 yards, though, you can definitely see the effect.

Dan Newberry
green 788

This is simple. Get a Lee collet neck die and Forster ultra seater. If you want to size the body also, get a Redding body die. The Lee collet die doesn't require case lubrication and it makes super straight ammo.

For me the absolutely best dies around are made by Neil Jones....send him some fired cases and he will make you custom dies for "your" chamber. He can make either threaded dies or my favorite "in-line" dies for use with an arbor press. Don't need no stinkin" expander ball and you can vary neck tension to your heart's delight. His seater dies are "dead-on", easy to use and adjust and stay there once set. Not cheap but perfection rarely is.

Dan,
What we have here is salient knowledge vs cognitive knowledge.
I have never got a 1" group, but I can do reading comprehension and applied mathematics.

"The NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969, a compilation from "The American Rifleman" 1950 to 1968, article gauging bullet tilt, by A.A. Abbatiello and was based on "The Bullet's Flight" by Dr F.W. Mann and the work of George L. Jacobson of the Frankford Arsenal in 1959:
"Mathematical Solution
The laterally displaced center of gravity moves though the bore in a helical (screw) path. The pitch of this helix is the pitch of the rifling, and the radius is the lateral displacement of the center of gravity. On leaving the muzzle the center of gravity continues in the direction it had at that point. .. The angle of emergence is that angle who's tangent is 2pi times the lateral displacement times the pitch. For a .004" displacement and a 10" rifling pitch, the tangent is 1/8 (2 pi)(.004) / 10 and the corresponding angle is 1.1 minutes.

...The effects which Jacobson found.. are essentially in agreement with the work reported here."

Are you indexing and sorting your eccentric ammo?
I hear that AND understand how these corrections really work.
TIA Clark

That sounds interesting, Clark. And it does explain why the groups spread out a bit more (due to high runout) at close range and then tighten up at a distance. The bullet eventually stabilizes, like a gyroscope--overcoming the skew.

I've noted that runout as high as .007" will still group well under MOA at 100 yards from my .308 Savage 10FP, this with 168 grain match bullets. I can't attest to the accuracy of the article you cite, but I can say that in my experience 3/4 MOA, even at 100 yards is possible with high runout numbers. Presumably the bullet begins stabilizing (correcting the skew induced by the runout) after it leaves the muzzle.

What kind of bolt action rifles do you currently own and shoot? Do any of them have glass bedded actions, or free floated barrels? Shooting MOA from the bench, or prone from sandbags isn't too difficult with the right rifle and load.

Take care, and thanks for the post,

Dan Newberry
green 788

The article covered by Clark also expounds further on the benefits of concentic ammunition and should be quoted. Some conclusions and "tests" mentioned in this thread are NOT in keeping with the results of the studies by that author, nor in my own experience.

"Rounds with .002" tilt or less can be considered good enough for long range use, while those with .003" and .004" tilt are best used only at short ranges. In general, it was concluded from target results that each .001" of tilt wil increase the group spread about 1/4 minute of angle, up to a maximum of .004" as mentioned above.

Under test conditions, it was found that when the rounds were chambered with the high point always in the same orientation, the groups were smaller than when it was randomly oriented. Gauging and orienting the rounds can produce the smallest groups of which that ammunition is capable."

If your ammo isn't within .002" concentric, or better, small groups at longer ranges are purely "accidental" and prove little.

You're a fine feller, Bob... I can tell that from your other posts.

But we'll have to disagree here.

Take care,

Dan

Bob,

I thought it would be good to expound on this issue a bit, and I'll advance that I've been known to change my mind in the past--so let's talk about it. Don't be afraid to throw right back at me!

First things first. I've shot many, many groups at 100 yards that come in below MOA with loads exhibiting runout in the .006" to .007" range. I had a whole batch of brass that I was fire-forming, and when new, the necks weren't much. These cartridges in .308 win had horrendous runout numbers on the first firing, but things straightened up after fire-forming in my Savage 10FP.

Not so long ago, a fellow shooter I exchange information with at www.snipershide.com mentioned that his rifle, a Remington 700 heavy barrel .308, was shooting 1 1/4 MOA at 100 yards, but closing in on 3/4 MOA at 300 yards. I told him to check the runout on the loads, as it appeared that they were taking a while to stabilize. He said he'd do so, and he came back with the following info: His loads, which were using 175 grain Sierra Matchking bullets, had runout of .010"!

In spite of this, these bullets were "regrouping" by the 300 yard point, and printing 2" to 2 1/4" groups at that range.

After he purchased a Lee Collet die set, and eliminated his runout, his groups at 100 yards came back around.

I'm not a physics professor, so I can't competently engage anyone on the mathematics concerning bullet flight--all I can do is "shoot and see." And in truth, even rocket scientists learn most of what they know from "shooting and seeing."

It does seem strange that a bullet would deviate from the POA in the short run, and then "magically" return to that line after it had been in flight for a while. But, nonetheless, this is an accepted fact, especially among shooters of the 50 BMG. These big rifles don't normally print any better than 1.5 to 2 MOA at 100 yards, but at 1000, they're extremely accurate. Most 50 BMG ammo exhibits a very high level of runout, but the long, heavy bullets gyroscopically correct after a given amount of time in flight. I won't attempt to competently describe why this occurs, but I do know that it does occur. Long range shooters refer to it as the bullet "going to sleep."

It would appear that the initial wobble, induced by the runout, causes the bullet to trend away from the line of force placed behind it by the barrel. Where no runout is present, the bullet simply stays on this line. Where runout is present, the wobble effect, due probably to the aerodynamic effect on its tip, carries it off this line.

The following is important.

Once the bullet stabilizes (stops the "yaw" or wobble), the inertial force placed behind it is still pushing it along the same line that is followed by the bullets with no runout. This bullet finds itself stabilized at say, 250 yards, so it stops deviating from the common trajectory right then and there. At 100 yards, the bullet was in full deviation when it printed 3/4" away from the bullets which had no "yaw" from runout. But now, at 300 yards, it is stable, it has "gone to sleep," as they say, and the deviation stops right there.

At worst it is 3 inches away from the perfect bullets, which at 600 yards will be 1/2 MOA. And at 1000 yards, it would still be only 3 inches away from the "perfect bullets."

Okay, your turn!

Dan Newberry
green 788

[ 10-05-2002, 00:04: Message edited by: green 788 ]

From memory, I have found the following accuracy hierarchy of my my rifles:
1) Bushmaster V-Match [AR15] 1.4" average with PMC Target or my best A-max handloads [all time best group: 1.05"]
2) Colt SP1 [AR15] 1.5" average with PMC Target or my best A-max handloads
3a) Bolt action surplus rifle glass bedded, bent bolt, scoped, hand loads Moisin Nagant 91/30 2.5" groups average
3) Bolt action surplus rifle glass bedded, bent bolt, scoped, hand loads; Turkish Mauser 91/30 2.5" groups average
4) Remington 700 BDL 22-250 stock, some throat wear, 2.5" average best handloads
5) VZ24 action trued bolt face and inner stop ring, .308 fluted stainless barrel, glass bedded laminated stock, 2.5" average
5) Turkish Mauser 45acp tight chamber bull barrel, 460 Rowland level handloads, 2.5" average
6) No. mk1 Lee Enfield scoped, best surplus ammo 2.5" average
7) Savage 110 30-06 surplus FN armor piercing ammo 6" average
8) Parts gun FALs best handloads with Match Kings or Berger bullets 6" average
9) Chinese SKS, scoped, com block ammo 8" average
9) SLR95 [AK47 with milled receiver] scoped, 8" average

My great hope is a new rifle:
I have not taken to the range yet. It is a VZ24 action, 257 Roberts Ackley Improved, Lothar Walthar factory hand lapped light varmint tapered barrel, glass bedded, the outer stop ring trued to the bolt bore, the inner stop ring lapped to the outer stop ring, the bolt body position has been controlled and bolt lugs lapped, The muzzle and breech of the barrel trued to .0002" in lathe prior to chambering, after chambering the chamber was still .001" to the lathe. The 100 rounds of Win brass was weighed and kept in order. The brass was found to scratch the Berger MEF moly bullets, so all the neck insides were chamfered and polished until they will not scratch. The scope is Leupold 6.5x20x40 boosted by Precision Optics to 13x40x40. The steel Weaver mounts are each drilled and tapped with 2 6-48 screws as well as bonded and bedded with JB Auto weld. The trigger has the force at ~10 ounces with over travel and take up adjustable per homemade trigger job.

I have been trying for years to get a 1" group.
This time for sure!

Clark,

I don't know if you'd be inclined to try the following recipes in your .308 and your 30-06, but if you have time and money to invest, I think you'll find that you can in fact shoot below 1" groups at 100 yards.

There will be a few, (one in particular, who shall remain nameless but his initials are HOTCORE ) who will observe with great interest this discourse. And while I won't 100% put my reputation on the line because of the variables involved, let's just say that if you're shooting competently from a bench, and there are no mechanical problems with the rifles, the following loads will print below 1 MOA:

.308 win

175 grain Sierra Matchking
45.0 grains of Varget (Hodgdon)
CCI BR-2 primers, these primers are important

Bonus .308 load:

125 grain Nosler ballistic tip
51.5 grains of W 748
CCI or Remington 9 1/2 primer

For your 30-06:

165 grain bullet, prefer Sierra Gameking
57.5 grains of H4350, or IMR 4350 if you don't have the Hodgdon
Remington 9 1/2 primer with the IMR, or CCI 200 with the H4350

These loads are all around good performers in the .308 and 30-06. Seat the bullets a caliber's depth (.030") into the case, and allow two minutes for cooling between shots. The cooling will be especially important with sporter barrels.

Let us know your intentions...

Thanks for the info,

Dan Newberry
green 788

P.S. For fun, you may want to try this .223 load in your best shooter: 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, 28.0 grains of W748, and any decent primer. Seat the bullet deep, to a cartridge OAL of 2.225" to 2.230". That's an excellent varmint load, and deadly accurate from just about any .223.

Happy shootin'

The way that BIGBOB talks about above is the same thing i do and works well for me!

Green788~
You are talking two different things here, concentricity and stabilization.

My objection was to a statement misleading particularly new shooters and reloaders, that a round .007" eccentric is going to be accurate. It's not. Sit down with a knowledgeable group of benchrest shooters or ballisticians and that statement will get you laughed right out of the room

What you are discussing is the phase at which a projectile stabilizes and goes to "sleep". That phenomena is very common. Most projectiles stabilize very near the 100 yard range. Some beyond. I have a 338 Win Mag which shoots groups of 1.8" or so at 100 yards. This with reloads concentric to .001" or better. It consistently shoots those same groups at 300 yards. I almost scrapped that load but being in a rush for a hunt back then. Being short on time for load development with a new rifle, I took some loads developed at 100 yards to sight in at 300 just before departure. Surprise! That rifle and load still does the same thing. Other loads in that barrel don't. Some are very accurate at 100 at MOA or better, yet they open open at the same MOA at longer ranges. They are larger than the sub MOA load the rifle prefers. The only explanation is the stabilization of the projectile somewhere PAST the 100 yard mark.

It's akin to spinning a top, if you've ever spun one. (We did a lot of that 65 years ago!) At the higher speed when you intially throw the top, it wobbles, then stabilizes and then continues spinning smoothly. Same thing in a rifle. That doesn't necessarily have to do with concentricity.

Bob,

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly. It could be that what we're each considering "accurate" needs to be defined. I would call MOA from a hunting rifle "accurate."

If you agree that MOA for a hunting rifle is "accurate," then it would appear that you are saying in response to my statement "I've shot many, many groups at 100 yards that come in below MOA with loads exhibiting runout in the .006" to .007" range... BS Dan! Is that what you're saying?

A bullet can have initial instability for reasons other than the wobble induced by high runout, but nonetheless, excess runout is probably the most common reason for instability.

What I thought we were talking about was runout induced instability.

I'll put in an email to the Sierra folks and get their input here. Hell, they might tell me I'm full of it too!

I'm not thinking that will be the case, however...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Bob, I failed to mention something very important, and your mention of benchrest shooters caused me to think of it.

With the .22 and .24 caliber bullets that BR folks normally shoot, .007" of runout would be well beyond horrendous. That would, relatively speaking, be like .010" or worse on a .30 caliber bullet.

With light, thin jacketed varmint bullets in .22 caliber, .007" would ruin practical accuracy.

The heavier the bullet, though, the more runout it can tolerate without too much ill-effect.

One more thing: When I mentioned shooting MOA with .006 to .007 thousandths of runout in my .308, I should have pointed out that with .002" of runout, that Savage 10 FP will shoot 1/4 to 3/8 MOA with ease. So if it appeared that I was arguing that runout had no effect, that was my bust--I should have made myself clearer.

I do believe that at extreme ranges, the effects of runout are attenuated due to the stabilization of the bullet. After all, the reason runout causes accuracy problems is bullet instability, can we agree on that?

Of course keeping runout to a minimum will always be a good thing!

Thanks for the replies,

Dan

Fisrt of all I want to say to all above that I have strong feelings about your knowledge and desire.
I believe you are all first rate!

Simple question please!
From what I am hearing The reloading press itself does little to change runout compared to the die.
Is this the case?(no pun intended! )

thanks
Matt

Buy Lapua Brass and you will solve a lot of problems it is probably the best brass you can buy if you want accuracy! Good Luck

Matt,

So long as the press is properly constructed (straight) it will make straight ammo--provided the dies are also straight.

I've found that the Lee Collet dies, once you learn how to use them, make straighter ammo than 99% of rifles in existence can take advantage of. They are a bit tricky to set up, and I've seen folks get frustrated early and give up on them. Adjust the Lee Collet die correctly, and polish down the mandrel if more neck tension is desired, and they will serve you as well as any 100 dollar set of dies on the market. The Lee Collet set costs about 25 dollars.

In my own experience, runout of .003" is awesome. I've shot many 1/4" groups at 100 yards with 30 caliber loads exhibiting runout of that amount. I've also shot some awful groups with perfect or near perfect cartridges, so there are other variables. Once runout gets above .005" on a 30 caliber rifle, or above .003" on smaller calibers, you can begin to see the difference in group size. This doesn't mean that the group is going to be bad necessarily, it just means that runout has made the group worse than it might have been.

At longer ranges, the effects of runout are not as severe, so long as you're shooting a bullet with a high enough BC to stabilize. Take a piece of paper, and put a dot (point) at the bottom of the page, and draw a straight line (using a ruler) from this point to the top of the page. This line represents the path of a "perfect" bullet.

Now, draw a second line, also originating at the same point, but draw it a degree or two or three to the right of the first line. Don't take this line all the way to the top of the page, however. Stop about 1/4 of the way up, then reposition the ruler and continue this line in a parallel fashion with the "perfect" bullet's line.

The second line shows you what happens with an initially unstable bullet prior to, and after it stabilizes. It deviates farther and farther away from "perfect" up to a point, and once it stops "wobbling" it takes a path alongside the "perfect" path, perhaps 1 to 3 inches away from it. The reason the bullet doesn't continue deviating at the same rate after it stabilizes is that its inertial energy isn't pushing it in that direction. Even during this brief deviation from the perfect path, the bullet is "trying" to get back onto that path--that's the direction of its inertia, imparted to it by the rifle barrel. This is why so many (especially long, high BC bullets) shoot larger groups at close range, but tighten up (MOA-wise, that is) at longer range.

I know you asked about the effects of the loading press on the straightness of ammunition, but since you seem concerned with straight ammo (reducing runout) I thought I'd pile on a bit...

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

[ 10-05-2002, 16:42: Message edited by: green 788 ]

Jim F.
I got the washers from a LDR faucet repair kit, from Sears Hardware or Home Depot. They're about 1/2" in diameter, 1/8" thick, and have a 1/8" hole in the center. I tighten the nut as tight as I can with my fingers.
I also decap the brass seperately, with an RCBS Universal Decapping Die. Then, I tumble the brass, inspect it, and resize.
When I got the RCBS Case Master, I checked EVERYTHING. I sorted the ammo into groups, "best" to "worst", and headed for the range, expecting great things!
Problem was, some of my "best" groups came with some of my "worst" reloads, and some pretty ragged groups came from my "best" reloads!
I was pretty relaxed with the "culled" loads, not expecting great results, and very tense with the "good" stuff, knowing the ammunition could not be blamed for "flyers" and bad shots!
Now, I don't measure anything (well, occasionally I do make random checks) and concentrate on squeezing off every round exactly the same as the one before it.
One other thing... I've found wind flags to be a much better aid in accuracy than concentricity...
Regards, George.

Hey Clark and Bob338, Interesting that you would both put more creedance in a comprehensive paper from an unquestionable source on the subject, which used both thousands of shots fired and irrefutable mathmatical verification, "instead of" the poorly thought out ramblings of a greenhorn rookie who has made a few shots through 1 or 2 firearms.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clark and referenced by Bob338:
"The NRA Handloader's Guide" 1969, a compilation from "The American Rifleman" 1950 to 1968, article gauging bullet tilt, by A.A. Abbatiello and was based on "The Bullet's Flight" by Dr F.W. Mann and the work of George L. Jacobson of the Frankford Arsenal in 1959:

Are you indexing and sorting your eccentric ammo?
I hear that AND understand how these corrections really work.
TIA Clark

---

I also realize the Random Group Dispersion can mislead the beginners into thinking something is legitmate when spending considerable Trigger Time at the bench(aka Experience) will eventually prove those incorrect assumptions false. But, it takes a greenhorn awhile to see the facts once they have decided to believe what is wrong.

I'd forgotten one piece of old advice from my Elders, "Attempting to rationally discuss a complex subject with someone who has no real theoretical knowledge or practical experience concerning it is generally difficult at best." When they are unable to accept reality, it is a complete waste of time.

Recently I was reminded of this sage bit of wisdom.

Thanks for sharing your experiences, George. Your contention that we often "obsess too much" regarding runout puts you in the distinguished company of one Boots Obermeyer, who mentions in the linked article here

http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_handloading.shtml

that he once shot a match with what he mistakenly thought were his best loads, but he'd inadvertently used his fouler rounds! He discovered this only after winning the match.

Runout does affect accuracy, but it has to reach a certain level before it causes ill-effects that aren't eclipsed by other, more common accuracy robbing factors such as trigger prowess--as you wisely point out.

Thanks for the post,

Dan Newberry

The "rookie" Hotcore refers to above is yours truly. Here are some things to consider if any of you are wondering who the real "rookie" may be:

Posted by Hotcore on 9-23-02 in the thread titled "Who really knows what?" (Ironic, huh? )

"I see a lot of "Experienced Reloaders" in this thread and they already know that there is no such thing as a Magical, Mythical, Mysterious Universal Charge(MUC Load) that works in "ALL" [he misquotes me here, as I had said "most"] rifles of the same caliber. But for those of you less experienced folks, the entire concept of a MUC Load is "Full of Beans". There are no guranteed combinations of Case/Primer/Powder/Bullet that [he trails off, see the thread...]"

Okay. Read now my email exchange with Paul Box, senior ballistics technician at Sierra bullets:

Here's my email to Paul, and his response:

Paul,

While some folks in my circles are finding it hard to believe, I've found a few load recipes that seem to be universally good performers in practically every rifle so chambered.

For the .308 win, I've noted that 45 grains of Varget with the 175 grain Matchking and (important) CCI BR primer is unbelievably consistent in several .308's I'm familiar with. I'll be honest with you--none as of yet have failed to shoot MOA or better with this load. My Savage 10FP shoots 1/4" groups of three, and 3/8" groups of five at 100 yards with this load. Hodgdon says the 45 grain charge is max, but safe. That has been the experience of many of us who have tried this load--no pressure signs at all. I've also noted that 46 grains of Varget with the 168 Matchking, and 44 grains of Varget with the 180 grain Matchking does equally well. The CCI BR primers seem mandatory for good performance with the Varget in these loads.

For the 30-06, it seems that 57.5 grains of H4350 (I've actually switched to IMR 4350 and gotten even better results) with the 165 grain Gameking shoots MOA or better in all but the sorriest of 30-06 bolt action rifles.

We also know that the venerable 28 grain W748/40 grain bullet in the .223 Remington is a great performer in most .223's.

My question is, how can this be? Many folks adhere to the montra: "Every rifle is different, and must have a load individually developed for decent performance." Is this true, or only half true? If it's true, how do we explain factory loads such as Federal's Gold Medal match (using Sierra's 168 grain Matckings)? In my own experiences, if your .308 won't shoot this load MOA or better, you have a rare one.

I just wanted to pick your brain a bit on this issue. I do have some ideas as to why this might be the case, but I wanted to get your impressions first. My ideas are only theories...

Thanks, Paul, and take care,

Dan Newberry

*****************************

Hi Dan,
I agree.There are certain loads in every caliber that will produce a vibration pattern that seems to allow the bullet to leave the muzzle at the same point of that vibration.Usually if a load won't shoot in a rifle that has been known to be a good load in others,there's other problems with the rifle in a barrel being ho-hum,out of round chamber etc.These kind of rifles might shoot something else off the wall so to speak,but likely it'll be an uphill job finding it.Ken Waters made a fair piece of change with this idea in his pet load series.I've given out thousands of loads over the years that have proven to be very accurate in other rifles.You bet it works.
Paul

For the record, no load I've ever recommended to anyone exceeds SAMMI specs. Factory loaded ammunition is as hot, usually hotter.

Hotcore, I'm sorry. George W. Bush mentioned after the South Carolina primary that his mistake in New Hampshire was that he allowed his opponent to "define him." I can't remain silent and allow you to do that to me here...

So will the real rookie <drumroll>

Please stand up, please stand up, please stand up...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Metalic Matt~
Re:"Simple question please!
From what I am hearing The reloading press itself does little to change runout compared to the die."

Presses can and do introduce runout. In my original quest for concentric ammo I've gone through about a dozen presses. I still own and use about 5. ALL presses are manufactured with a plus or minus .005" tolerance. These tolerances can compound offset in the press in the ram and die boss. You can check your press with a dial indicator, or by indexing a case and checking it for runout. Your die setup in the press if done carefully can zero these tolerances and help eliminate runout. The slop in the threads of the die boss can be used to advantage. The most accurate standard press I had was a Lyman Orange Crusher (.002" runout.) I've owned most of the others, except Redding, and I don't think the manufacturer matters. It's the luck of the draw based on the tolerances and their mating.

Had I bought the Forster Coax initially I would have saved myself tons of time and money as that press puts out the most accurate ammo of all, short of the arbor presses. Setup of the die still is important. The Coax makes this much easier by virtue of its design.

How would you go about setting up a press to be as "straight" as you could get it? What do you use for a standard to assess the run-out of the die, the ram, and the shellholder?

I know what a runout gauge is, but how do you set one up to measure the differences in the various parts mentioned?

And an aside: Given the relatively low price of Lee presses, would it be reasonable to set up a set of dies in the press and just leave it set up? I'd like to hear you comments. I've reloaded for a long time, but precision reloading has only become an issue with the acquisition of really accurate rifles. Thanks. Ku-dude

STOP THE INSANITY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do a decent job on your dies. Find the right load. Do the basics. THEN LET THE DARN 24" OF HIGH QUALITY BARREL DO THE REST. Believe me --a high quality barrel will erase the minor flaws we reloaders might make!

Ku-dude~
The "standard" would be zero runout and perfect alignment. You could set up a die in a press so as not to have to set up each time but it's not that difficult. I do have one set up permanently for other reasons, but it's not necessary. As to the quest for "perfect" reloads, I offer the following.

First we have to define a few terms. �Full Sizing� (FS) is setting up the die per manufacturers instructions, which will usually set the shoulder back about .004� or more, returning the brass to near new factory specs. �Partial Full Sizing� (PFS) sets the die to bump back the shoulder .001�-.002�. Some will maintain this is the only proper way to set up a die for what is truly full sizing. �Neck Sizing� is using a die specially made for the purpose for sizing ONLY the neck. It is set up per manufacturers instructions which is usually identical to the method of setting up the FS die.

The usual manufacturer�s instructions call for the ram of a press to be raised when the die is placed in the boss and butted against the shell holder with a good amount pressure for the cam over. When either the FS or the NS die is set up in this manner and the lock rings are well tightened with the die butted smartly against the shell holder per die setup instructions, the threads of both the boss and lock ring are neutralized and mostly the die is square to the press. The problem here is that in full sizing, more slop is introduced into the case by setting the shoulder way back and sizing the body more than is necessary for optimum and extreme accuracy. If set up per instructions you can usually neutralize runout.

Where the problems usually arise is in partial full sizing, or in setting up dies in some manner other than the manufacturers� instructions. Here the die doesn�t butt up against the shell holder thereby allowing the tolerances in the ram, the threads of the die boss and the threads of the lock ring to affect concentric alignment. This can be solved in any number of ways, the simplest being the use of Redding�s Competition Shellholders. These enable the die to butt against them and maintain alignment through repeated sizing. They provide consistent repeatability and are by far the best way to accomplish PFS and very precise setback of the shoulder. However, you still have a possible problem with the tolerances in the threads of both the boss and the lock rings. I mostly solved this when using the standard presses (before acquiring a Coax,) by using the pinch style lock rings as sold by Forster and Hornady. These at least eliminate the slop in the lock ring/die contact. You still have to be careful with these as the tolerances for the threads of the die and the rings are such that the surfaces of the ring when pinched on the die, may not be at the perfect 90 degree angle to the die thereby introducing cant when the die is put in the die boss. Usually reversing the ring, or trying another on that die will solve that problem.

You can set up the die for PFS without the special shell holders or the pinch rings by the use of a washer, feeler gauge or other flat stock. However, with the slop inherent in the threads the die may cant with repeated sizings which will then introduce runout part way through the run. The die is �floating� in the threads and since the shell holder isn�t touching it to help maintain alignment, the die can move out of alignment.

Where I had problems with any of these methods I was occasionally able to get zero runout using either the Lee rings with the rubber O ring, or by using only the O ring with other lock rings other than Lee. They were used as a washer of sorts between the ring and the die boss. I found that the torque applied to this setup was critical to maintain concentricity and it was difficult to adjust the components to achieve it. However, I know several very experienced reloaders that swear by this method and do much better with it than I was able to do.

To check these setups you can use a dial indicator with a magnetic holder on the press. I doubt I can adequately explain these setups. Your own imagination and mechanical ability is necessary. One of the easiest is to place the dial indicator against the die and determine any movement of it in sizing or when the shell holder butts up against it before sizing. This is particularly important to do if the setup �floats� without butting against a shell holder. You can determine the direction of the offset and amount of it.

To check runout which may be introduced into the case by the press you need to first check that a fired case is concentric. Set up the die removing the expander, which is probably the #1 culprit for introducing runout in a case. Mark a case with a marker and orient it in both the shell holder and press in a repeatable manner and size the case. I�d do two or three. Then check concentricity. You can determine the offset of the press by not cinching down the die and doing the same thing. You�ll find the direction it�s off and, by measuring, the amount of runout introduced.

A good concentricity gauge is essential. I have a Sinclair but I believe the NECO is probably the best though a bit pricey.

After fussing with this problem for years my solution was to get the Forster Coax. There are still some essential steps for die setup but the beauty of it is that once the die is set up and the ring locked, you never have to do it again.

Bullet seaters are another problem and there isn�t any way I can cover all the problems with them, but a basic die setup as above goes a long way to help. The buttons that come in contact with the bullet are usually a culprit in introducing runout. I use the competition micrometer seaters from either Forster or Redding where they are made for cartridges I shoot. Unfortunately some wildcats force use of others. It just takes a bit of problem solving and imagination to get things right.

To neutralize runout in a conventional press I always ran the case into the die twice. After the first time, slightly back the case out, rotate it 180 degrees, and run it back in. Same thing with seating bullets. Quite a bit of runout can be eliminated doing this even if the dies aren't properly set up.

Hope this helps someone.

Clark, the problem you have with the .303 brass could be an oversized chamber. Look at your fired, unresized cases. If they have a definite non-coeccentric expansion ring at the case head then you may have found the culprit. When these cases are full-length resized this ring gets pushed in lengthening only one side of the case and creating a runout condition in the case body.

I have a 7.5 French MAS 36 rifle which has a chamber .008 oversize. When I fireformed cases for it the case head blew out on one side so much I thought it would rupture. Resizing these cases caused a runout condition. I solved the problem by wrapping a narrow strip of aluminum tape around the case head about .010 thick. This shimmed and centered the case in the chamber and resulted in uniform expansion rings upon firing. Runout was less than .003. Neck-sizing with Lee Collet dies will keep everything straight.

I don't know about case head fit. I will see.

I can see from the SAAMI specs that the 303 headspace on the rim can vary .025" and the shoulder can vary that much too. Combined there is up to .050" shoulder blow out possible.

I measured the shoulder blow out and it is about .030"
I looked for #3 bolt heads, but no one has any.
Tomorrow I am going to Silver solder some sheet metal to the bolt face and mill it off flat and just chambering the brass I have.

Find the right bullet/powder combo for your rifle;check out the runout expender ball;play with the C.O.L.and powder weights....