When I was thinking about what caliber my dad was thinking of buying a new Ruger M77 Mk2 in, I had an idea.

He was thinking 7X57mm Mauser, for deer/bear/moose to 200 yards. What about a 338 Win Mag? Handloaded down with faster-burning powders like Varget, it seems to behave quite nice with 180-185 gr. bullets.

Here is a load I found:

185 gr. Barnes XBT
57.0 grs. Varget
2841 fps

In a 8.25 lb. rifle, that is 24 ft-lbs of recoil. 18 ft-lbs is what a 7X57/175 gr. produces.

What do you think? Will a mild 338 load with a good bullet do just as good of job? I'm just a tad concerned with the smaller 7mm bullet if we encounter a large bear or moose. He is looking for relativly mild recoil.

Any suggestions?

7X57's have killed a lot of elephants.

Todd, the 338 WM has been a real favorite of mine for years. I've never loaded it down though. H4895 is apparently the *best* way to do just that. I have, however, owned and loaded for a 338-06 which is quite similar to your down-loaded 338 WM in terms of recoil. If your dad is looking for "relatively mild recoil" a down-loaded 338WM is NOT the answer. Besides, I personally see no need for less than 200 gr. bullets in the 338's... a 180/308" bullet will penetrate better than a 185/338" bullet of like construction.

If it were me I'd get a 308 and call it good... it HAS mild recoil and will kill anything in NA. It's a fantastic round and with today's great bullets and powders is for all practical purposes the equal of the great 30-06 but kicks noticeably less. Also, "High Energy" factory loads are available for it to boost its performance if desired... that's something not available to your 7x57. Too, because it's in a SA it'll be a bit lighter and handier than the 7x57... no flies on the 7x57, but in a factory rifle, good acccuracy will generally be easier to obtain from a 308 than a 7x57... I say this from experience

BA

Brad, Hornady does have a high energy load for the 7x57. I know they offer it in the 139 gr. at least.

I've got a 7x57 and a 338 win mag, have never tried reduced loads in the 338. Although I don't find the 338 recoil excessive with a good recoil pad the 7x57 is really a no-kicker. I'm just starting to work up 7x57 loads with Hornady 154 gr. bullets as that seems to give a good compromise on weight vs. trajectory. I think I would stick with the 7x57 and look at loads with 154-170 gr. bullets. Using a good bullet it should work for most NA hunting out to your 200 yard range.

tod -
Hate to go agains the flow here, but, I think what you're anticipating is an excellent idea. Nice to have the horsepower of the 338 should the need arise (like, if your Dad decides to go looking for Brown bears or something), while having the flexibility to load it down like you propose for other stuff. A 185 "X" at 2850 should handle pretty much anything your Dad will bump into, I'd bet. How many grizzlies have been offed with a 180 grain 30-06 at 2600 - 2700? I know the SD of a 308/180 is higher than a 185/338, but, the X's aren't normal bullets.

Using 4895 for reduced loads is an excellent idea. According to Hodgdon, you can go as low as 60% of the max listed for 4895 (works with either IMR or Hodgdon's version, and you can do the same with 4064, Varget and R15, too) and still get good results. Just use a magnum primer to be sure all the powder gets lit.

I've done a fair amount of shooting using the 60% formula with both 4895's and both 4064's (IMR and Accurate) in my 416 RMag, and it works.

R-WEST

He likes the 338 a bit more. I had to convince him pretty hard on the 7mm Mauser, he is a little skeptical about that 7mm bullet going at moderate speeds. He feels it would be a dandy deer rifle, but since he hunts bears and moose just as much as deer, he wants something with a bit more zap.

I just felt that a 30 cal is alright, but he doesn't want something that everybody else has (308, 30-06, 300 Mag). If I can load with powders like Varget, RL15, or 4350's a few grains below max, it seems to be quite potent. With a good penetrator, like a 185-200 gr. X, I would think it would give plenty of penetration on moose. With 180 gr. Ballistic Tips, seems good on deer. I'm not talking about loading it down too low, just to 3200-3400 ft-lbs range, like a 338-06. Sort of like a mild pressure 300 H&H, but with a thicker bullet.

Does this make any sense to anybody but R-West?

Some hunters are using 185-grain X bullets with their .338's to hunt elk, so I imagine it should work for moose.

R.West made some good points about the .338. You can use lightweight bullets from 185 to 210 grains and load then to match the low to medium range of velocities listed in the reloading manuals.

For example, lets say that you are using a 210-grains XLC BT (blue-coated) bullet, and start with a powder charge of 61.0 grains of IMR 4320 for 2,691 fps. The maximum powder charge with this powder and bullet is 66.0 grains for 2,912 fps. You could add a grain or two more to reach somewhere between 2,700 and 2,800 fps to keep it on the mild side.

With other powders listed, over 3,000 fps can be achieved. But those velocities are the maximum listed. I could be wrong, but I feel the 210-grain XLC BT should be an outstanding .33 hunting bullet.

A good thing about the .338 is that every manufacturer has bullets for it. Barnes has bullets from 160 grains to 250, while others past 250 grains, and end at 300.

Something else: I have a Ruger M77 that had a "boat paddle" stock. Those stocks have a very thin and hard recoil pad, so recoil can't be tamed as easier as some other stocks. I replaced it with a Hogue Rubber-Overmolded one, and this one tames recoil very well. The recoil pad is at least 1" thick, and softer then the Ruger's.

[ 01-14-2003, 11:35: Message edited by: Ray, Alaska ]

Ray, I'm thinking about replacing my Win 70 .338 WM stock with a Hogue Overmolded (incl. full bedding block). Are you satisfied with yours and did you notice an accuracy change ?

Some bullets may not expand well at reduced velocities in the 338. You may have to do some looking. I got rid of my 338WM I found I didn't need it, it burns a lot of powder, the recoil is manageable but heavy. Great long range moose round, but here in Ontario, most moose are up close.

I have a Ruger MK 1 in a 338 WM and developed some loads for the 180 NBT than ran 2900 fps - chrono'd. Not blistering but the recoil still felt like a 338 - stiff. I don't know how old your dad is but the recoil is going to be there and the rifle fully scoped, slinged and loaded probably close to 10 lbs. 7X57 properly handloaded with 150-160 gr partitions or other quality bullet will certainly thump a moose/bear - hard - and you can get the rifle weight down a couple of pounds. I'm 55 and I will shoot that 338 until my shoulder snaps - but I also got a 270 to carry me into the "gentle" years - after 85

OK, we're pretty much over the 7X57 and 338 Mag it will be, in a stainless laminate Ruger M77 Mk2.

I will try some of the lighter bullets with powders like Varget and RL15 once we get the rifle & equip. I will let you all know how the recoil is, and the results on paper, chrony, and hopefully game.

TB

A load I've been playing with is the 200gr. Speer(got a ton of seconds) ahead of 59grs. IMR4895 for 2685fps. Recoil is considerable less then my 225grs. going out at 2800 plus but shoots the same point of impact. That Speer bullet still expands nicely at that reduced velocity. Pete