I can hear a few groans already, another blue dot story.



However, I have had a few requests and the application peaked my curiosity. A lot of people have rifles that kick too much are too much for off season shooting practice, or great for hunting elk, but are overkill for deer etc.



The 338 mag definitely falls into the catagory. My goals were to reduce recoil while maintaining accuracy and giving a rifle that was good for deer at 200 yards. Considering most deer are taken within 50 to 75 yrds.



I did this test using Speer 200 grain bullets. They are available locally and are fairly inexpensive for a 338 bore bullet. IN the field I personally would switch to the Nosler 180 or 200 grain Ballistic tips. They have a heavy core and will penetrate very well, yet the ballistic tip allows them to open at velocity as low as 1500 fps. The Barnes X and Triple Shock should also be excellent in this application.



The 338 Mag also held close to my findings in the smaller cases. Between 40 % and 60 % of the cases max capacity seem to be the best opperating range to utilize. I used CCI Large Rifle primers, not mag primers.



The reformed Winchester 7 Mag cases held 62.5 grains of blue dot max. So 40% would be 25 grains and 60 % would be 37.5 grains.



I am using Blue Dot a lot, because it is bulky and fills the case fairly well. It is not position sensitive in the case with a large rifle primer. Standard Deviation in chronograph testing has been minimal, in fact the tightest of any powder I have ever used in testing. Accuracy has also always been the very BEST of any reduced loads I have done when compaired to any other powder.



Test rifle was a Winchester Model 70 in 338 Win Mag.26 inch barrel.



Here are the chronographed results.:

with a 200 grain Speer bullet:



25 gr = 2010 fps

26 gr = 2035 fps



27gr = 2078 fps

28 gr = 2139 fps



29 gr = 2210 fps

30 gr = 2266 fps



31 gr = 2280 fps

32 gr = 2350 fps



33 gr = 2367 fps

34 gr = 2430 fps



35 gr = 2415 fps ( less than 34 grains??? but that is what it read)

36 gr = 2483 fps



37 gr = 2537 fps

38 gr= 2570 fps.

This was fine to this point, NO PRESSURE problems experienced.



39 gr= 2627 fps and blew primer



For the 250 grain crowd, I loaded up one 250 grain Sierra.

35 grains of Blue Dot and a Sierra 250 grain BT.

35 grains = 2265 fps.



I think the best applications for the rifle at these speeds is the 200 grain of less, and using the Barnes bullets in this size, and the Nosler Ballistic tips.



As always since you have less powder, than other loads, recoil is also substantially less than a regular 338 Mag loads.

Velocity of 2500 fps with a 200 grain Ballistic tip as compared to a load of 2900 fps with a 200 grain B.T., the only trajectory difference is as follows:

for a 200 yd zero: 1.7 inches high at 100 vs. 2.6 inches high

for a 300 yd zero: 3.8 inches high at 100 vs 6.0 inches high



With a 200 yd zero, the comparison of how low you are at 300 yds, is 3 inches lower with the 2500 fps range.



Even at 2,000 fps MV, this load data is useful for a 200 yd shot. Since most animals are taken in less than 75 yds, the lowest load is also useful. At 200 yds, both the Nosler Ballistic tips and the Barnes X bullets are still within their factory operational range.



It has always escaped me, but a lot of people will have confidence in a bullet traveling at 1500 fps at 600 yds of taking an animal down. Yet the do not think the same 1500 fps will kill at animal if the shot was made at 75 yds. That logic escapes me.



Hope this helps out someone out there.



Cheers and Good shooting

Seafire

Seafire,

I enjoy these Blue Dot posts very very much. I have always used reduced loads and my first were cast bullets. It was the challange of it of course but later I read that Col. Whelan hunted across Canada using them and I hunted with them also with that assurance.

My powder of choice was always SR 4759 but many of my loads used kapox for a filler. This worked well and I still have quite a few rounds so loaded. Most of these are in various .375's from the 38-55 on up. With smaller bores I have got some fouling on the necks using kapox.

When I tried Blue Dot in the 220 Swift it was an immediate success. No filler was used yet the ignition has been uniform from bench positions at least. Also the powder seems to raise the pressure just right to seal that strong case even with very light loads. Thus there is no fouling on the case body like other loads can leave.

The concept of a reduced load in a magnum is quite valid. What with the flexiblity we have from handloads one may as well chamber the biggest case in whatever bore and just load it down if wanted. Only when the large case impacts on the rifle weight or length would one want a low capacity round.

So I carry a Swift. It has "Hornet" loads that shoot very well and it's a 400 yd gun with the standard load. I think about that and it pleases me.

I for one am not bored. A couple things:
1. Was the accuracy over this wide range of loads acceptable?( group size)?

2. I think that there is no necessity for a "premium"200 gr. bullet at those velocities if you are after deer.

3. Just keep it coming. roger

seafire/ B17G ,
I am another one that won't get tired of learning about loading. Blue Dot seems to be the answer I've been looking for, for a long time. I have wanted a powder for the off season use of my favorite guns. I love it. I love the idea of shooting with less recoil but not less accuracy. Please, keep them coming.
Thanks,
David

Just so we are all singing from the same hymnal;what are you calling a full case of powder? I filled a new 7x57 case to the junction of the neck and shoulder. The Blue Dot measured 38.2 grains. That's very close to what you measured in the .243 so it lead me to believe you might be filling the case to the top.There is no problem I just want to make sure we are doing the apples to apples thing and I want you to know I appriciate the time you are putting on this. You don't mind me calling you Prop Job do you? roger

Hey Roger,

Calling me prop job is just fine, heck of a lot better than Calling me Hand Job.

Anyway, good point. When I am calling something a max case capacity, I am speaking of filling it until the case is overflowing, take a card or something and pan off the excess so that the top of the powder column is flush with the top of the neck. Completely filled to the brim.

Overall I think that is an easier point of reference since all cases vary in capacity somewhat.

I start my working up at 40% of that figure and consider 60 % as max. I am finding out that about 62% is really max/max, but why mess around for another 50 fps?

If someone does not want to really play with working up a load, something between 50 % to 55% of max case capacity is the easy way out and not pushing the limits. Notice on the 338 data that the chronograph gave, an extra grain in the 338 only gave another 50 fps or so. consulting a trajectory chart, you see that the 50 fps doesn't add or take much from the trajectory at 200 yds.

My interpretation of a good down load is to have an effective range or 200 yds, stretching that to 250 with those that know how to work their scope adjustments or might have a target turrent and the opportunity to use it. I don't think many guys hunt with a 338, and have a scope with target turrents unless they REALLY know what they are doing, or are just guys who have a lot of money and want to look a certain way.
Saw a guy recently at the range with a 338 Win Mag in a Weatherby, and they had a 4x5 x 14 x 56mm Second Generation Springfield Armory Scope on it. If anyone on here has that set up, my apologies, but I thought that was dramatic overkill. My thoughts were this is someone who doesn't have a clue, but has a lot of money to throw at a problem that doesn't exist. Of course my 338 Mag wears a 4 x40mm Simmons Whitetail Classic scope, so what do I know???

Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire

No this is very good research I most likely well not use it but it is good to know. Some day I might only have a lb or two of blue dot to use. Then I'll be able to shoot what I have and kill what I need. thanks for the work.

Hey, I like reduced loads and shoot 'em in my 416 all the time.

I'll try your blue dot trick!

Don

A couple of comments.........these Blue Dot loads while being reduced velocity , are not neccesarily reduced PRESSUE . I think your experience with the blown primer proves that .



It would look to me like the combination of fairly heavy bullets , large cases , and the extremely fast burning powder has the potential for some very nasty surprises......



Instead of venturing clear off the map into uncharted waters , why just not use Accurate Arms 5744 instead ? It is made for this very application and they have lab tested safe data available for a wide range of cartridges.



For the .338 , Acurate shows from 36 gr to 52 gr of 5744 under a 200 gr Hornaday , for speeds from 2061 fps to 2790 .



The cost is not going to be much different , and you don't have to guess........



I think Dupont has quite a bit of data for the 4759 as well.........it will also do the same thing .

Hey Seafire, Nice post! It does look like the more calibers you try that your 60% Theory is doing real well.



Sure don't want to see any Rookies get blown up, and it does look like you have found a good Rule-of-Thumb in regards to the Reduced Blue Dot Loads< !--color--> But, I'm glad to see you are still stressing for folks to "work-up" the Loads from below.

Sdgunslinger makes a point. For instance IMR's SA 4759 is just a little slower than Blue Dot and was made for reduced loads. It's a very bulky powder and with the formula I use it produces a nice accurate load that's impossible to double charge.



I have found, with limited testing, that Blue Dot seals the case with adequate pressure for the very light loads that I want. It also does not seem to require a filler with these loads. Accuracy has been outstanding.



I have tested 8,9,10,11,12,13 and 14 grs of BD in the 220 Swift and a 50 gr bullet. I settled on 13 grs at 2400 fps. The purpose was to create a 22 RFM load. It's a little more than that but very accurate. I am going to try another bullet however as the point of impact is just a little to the left.



As to safety the biggest problem that I have seen so far is bullets sticking in the barrel from no powder at all in the case. A bullet could also stick, in theory, from too light a charge or incomplete burning. So when firing it's best to look at the target on every shot. If you don't see a bullet hole then look thru the barrel.



Here is a volume conversion chart



http://www.mpa.candler.nc.us/people/staff/jzarando/Lee-VMD-table.htm

FWIW--I ran the "blown primer" load past quick load. It thought that 39 grains would run a velocity of 2521 fps @ 57k pressure. I kept bumping the load in quick load till I got your actual velocity and it thought that it would take 42.0 grains to make 2628 fps and that load made 66k pressure.. So, in your case QC was off less than 10%. (NOt perfect but understandable with different lots of powders and guns etc.)
JUst thought it might be interesting to some of you guys considering a QC purchase. It's often fun for me to check actual data from other peoples reports to see how accuarate QC really is and help me decide how much to really trust it.

Slinger,

NO one indicated reduced pressures here. Working up until blowing a primer shows what the extreme point is and to make sure anyone else who plays with this, knows what the upper limits are, and are recommended to stay away from.
These loads were worked up to that point.

I use Blue Dot as I have found the accuracy to be quite superior to 5744, which I have tried and was not all that impressed with in a wide variety of calibers.

These are put forth strictly to those that may have an interest in it, or the results, nothing more or nothing less. I am not a dealer selling Blue Dot, LoL.

I am also seeing a lot more availability of Blue Dot than I am SR 4759, although I was very impressed with the results I got in a 30/30 with it.. It was clearly superior to Blue Dot in that cartridge or my rifle. However trying it in a 22/250 ,223 and 243 did not give me the same outcome. Blue Dot was clearly superior. It has just seemed to work consistently in a variety of cases, with very predictable results.

So I share my findings with others, that may have some interest.

Thanks for your comments Slinger, I respect your opinions.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Kraky:

I don't have a Quick Load program, but I have found the info people have put forth, to be different than the results that I observed.

This is not to knock quick load programs, but instead to magnify the fact that all rifles and results can VARY a lot and even reload manuals are only a point of reference of what happened in the test rifle.

I have also noticed things in the past, for instance X amount of powder may blow a primer, and then X + 1 grain will not.

I typically blame that on the individual case. If I experience that, I will load up two more cases, One with X amount and ONe with X plus ONe grain and see if the results correlate.

That is why experimenting like this, I learn the parameters of my individual rifles.

Cheers and Good shooting
Seafire

thanks for the kudos HOT Core.

Seafire