I have found, in a couple places on the internet, loads for 165 grain Hornady spire points with Re19 going up to 65 grains. Manuals I have checked say 61 grains is max. I just loaded a bunch of rounds starting at 60 grains and increasing in 1 grain increments up to 65. I loaded the bullets out to be .0025" off the lands. At 64 grains the powder was slightly compressed and I vibrated the case to get it all in. At 65 the powder was very compressed. I will shoot these rounds this weekend over the chronograph. What is the highest reasonable velocity I should be able to attain in a 22" barrel with 165 grain bullets? I am hoping to get around 2900 fps. Is this unreasonable? If I get there before reaching 65 grains I will of course disassemble the remaining rounds. I would appreciate any and all advice.

NoCAL

Just because you read it online, does not make it right. If book max is 61, why the hell are you starting at 61? Back off and work up the proper way.

NoCAL -

Alliant lists a MAX of 62 grains with the 165 grain bullet, although the bullet they list is not a Hornady. What does the Hornady manual say? 65 sounds awful hot.

You MAY get lucky and be okay, but, I'd start out at around 57 or 58 grains, and chrono them, then work from there. In a 22" barreled 30-06, 2900 should be attainable with a 165 Hornady.

What are you shooting them in?

R-WEST

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"the spotlight of truth will cause the cockroaches of deceit to run for cover every time"
Rush Limbaugh

[This message has been edited by R-WEST (edited 04-24-2002).]

Hellrazor,
As I mentioned I appreciate all advice and replies rude, obnoxious or otherwise. If you read carefully you would note that I mentioned these are loads that have been published in more than one place but I don't consider them the gospel truth. That is why I am posing a question. Also the max in the manuals I have is 61, I am starting at 60 grains or 2% below the highest max I have been able to find. Since I have recieved two comments advising me to try a lesser charge, I will load some starting at 58 grains. I have found in the past with this rifle and 150 grain Ballistic tips that the max load listed in the Nosler manual (60 grains) gave me only 2680 fps. I was not happy with that result and would like to improve on it but it seems the Nosler manual is quite conservative.

R-West, it is a Remington Mountain rifle. Thanks for your less abrasive advice. I will load some rounds in the high 50's and chrono them before moving up.

NoCAL

A friend's Ruger 77 MKII in 30/06, 22"bbl

WW Case, WLR primer, Nosler 165gr BT

RL19 60.0gr 2779fps
RL19 61.0gr 2824fps
RL19 62.0gr 2854fps

RL22 61.0gr 2785fps
RL22 62.0gr 2886fps
RL22 63.0gr 2922fps Max!!!

My friend went with RL22, compressed load. Always reduce 10% and work up. Load at your own risk, I take no responsibility for this data. sure-shot.

You are courting disaster by continuing this testing with past max loads in any rifle. Listen to your loading manual directions and forget trying to make a shorter barrel produce longer barrels velocities. You will get hurt if you continue doing what your doing.

2 1/2 thou off the lands ? 1gr jumps when looking at above book loads ? .025 (25 thou) off the lands maybe, Your increments should be 1/2gr or less if your going to exceed the manual.
FWIW
Nosler #4 lists 61.5 max RL-19 with a 150gr BT bullet, and that load will flatten a primer every time (I know it's what I use in mine, 2935fps w/21.5" barrel)
Nosler does not list RL-19 with their 165 or 180 bullets but shows a max charge of 56.0gr behind their 200gr.
50gr more bullet, 5.5gr less powder
I would expect to see 59.8gr of RL-19 as a MAX behind a 165gr Nosler bullet.
Their are a lot of people showing unsafe (IMO) loads on the net. Don't let their stupidity bite you in the azz.

[This message has been edited by Tailgunner (edited 04-24-2002).]

I have chronographed 3,088 fps out of my 22" barreled Ruger Model 77 MK II in 30-06 using 62.0 grains of Re 19 and the 165 gr Hornady. This load is TOO HOT, and the primer was flattened and cratered.

My hunting load for this bullet is 59.5 gr Re19, at a more sane 2,920 fps. That's pretty much the usable max in my rifle.

Tailgunner, You are correct that was a typo it should have read .025" off the lands. As per everyones advice I will back down. I am sure that 2900 fps isn't excessive in a 22" barrel but if I don't get there, that's ok. I already have a hunting load (59 grains H4350, Sierra 165 grain at 2780 fps) so this was just fooling around trying to get a bit more performance.
6.5, If I can get to 2900 with 59.5 grains, I'll be very satisfied. Thanks all for responding.

NoCAL

[This message has been edited by NoCAL (edited 04-24-2002).]

The Barnes manual with COATED (XLC)bullets lists the 165 gr 30-06 load of 62 grs R19 as max! And they are usually generous when using those bullets.I fail to see the logic in exceeding reloading manual maximums. If you need more speed buy a 300XXX super death ray! Think about the costs. If you've never seen a gun blow up you wouldn't believe the damage that can result. Don't chance it.

Check out the aurguement going on in the "MAX load" thread.
Common advice is to back off 10% so with that in mind a start at 55gr. is what would be a start at a 10% reduction. That said I think starting at 58gr would be fine, but if you've not used this powder or bullet before in this rifle I would be more cautious with the internet recipe. I usually change only one component at a time so as to limit the variables. All compressed loads should be looked at vary closely. When someone offers a load that doesn't fit in the case I'd really wonder!

One fact seems to be ignored here. The cartridge in question is the 30-06, which is normally loaded to around 50,000 CUP which I believe has 52,000 CUP as absolute maximum.
I believe the rifle in question is a Remington 700, which comes chambered in rounds like the 7mm Mag. and .300 Win. mag, just to name a couple of the higher pressure rounds. Now these higher pressure rounds are loaded to an average Max of about 52,000 CUP with an absolute max of 55,000 CUP.
It would seem to me, that the 30-06 in a strong rifle like the Remington 700 could safely be loaded to 52,000 to 55,000 CUP.
The 30-06 is a great round, as is, but it is not loaded to it's full potential.
I've got my asbestos underwear on, so let the flames begin.
You'll have to admit, this is something to think about.
Paul B.

I think you got the predominate message here, NoCal. Err on the side of caution, for Pete's sake. This loading data you quote sounds MIGHTY hot for this old /06 guy. You can always add more powder another day but you can't take it back out when the bolt comes flying back over your shoulder.

By the way, you won't get any medal for pushing your rifle to the razors edge anyhow. This quest for the MAX of everything is so much BS. Just cook up a good load both you AND your rifle enjoy shooting and use it.

It's been my experience that when bad things start happening with a load, they happen fast and change can be unpredictable at times. EXAMPLE - I once had my 30/06 start blowing the primers out of the case heads simply because I had let the round sit for several minutes in a very hot barrel. Sneaky little things like this can bite you in the butt

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A well placed bullet is worth 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.

In my playing around with the .30-06 I have found the useful range of RL-19 to be from 49.7 grains to 62.1 grains using a Winchester WLR Primer.

However, my best load with 168's was 56.6 of IMR-4350 for 2800 fps. This is out of a Ruger 77 and grouped around 1/2" for 5-shots at 200 yards.

As for the manuals, remember they are nothing more tha cookbooks, not bibles. That is whay I always advise anyone who asks me to start with minimum loads and work up until they reach either the level of accuracy they desire, or the first signs of pressure start to show.

Each rifle is different, as is every lot of primers, powders, bullets and cases.

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http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

NoCAL -

With all the flames flying around, we all forgot to welcome you to the forum. WELCOME!!

You mentioned that you were getting really low readings with the 150 grain bullets, even when using the Nosler listed max loads. It is possible you may have a "slow" barrel, OR, your lot of R19 may be slow. I've seen both, and, either can leave you scratching your head. Have you tried the same R19 in other rifles - if so, were the results as expected?

You might consider R15 with the 150 grain bullet, since R19 is a trifle slow for that application. Alliant shows around 3000 FPS with 53.6 grains (MAX, work up, etc...) of R15 and the 150 Hornady.

As Steve noted above, and has been verified in every 30-06 I've ever seen, one of the 4350's generally gives best velocity/ accuracy with 165 grainers, somewhere between 56 and 59 grains is the ticket. I'm getting around 2850 - 2900 FPS with 1" - 1.25" (5 shot groups @ 100 yards) in sporter weight barrels with some variety of that combo in numerous 30-06's. That should certainly take care of most anything you're shooting a 30-06 at, I'd think.

Good luck,

R-WEST

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"the spotlight of truth will cause the cockroaches of deceit to run for cover every time"
Rush Limbaugh

WOW, I did not expect to generate this much controversy. I ran home after work and pulled bullets! The loads I have finally settled on for this weekend start at 58 grains and end at 62.5 grains. If loads start looking hot around 60 grains I won't shoot the remainders. I don't have any deathwish. I went back and looked through my notes and I was correct, 61 grains with a 150 grain Ballistic tip only produced around 2680 fps.

R-West, thanks for the welcome, I've been lurking here for some time but have decided to be a little more active. I don't have another rifle where Re19 would be suitable. I use Re15 and Varget in my .308. The only other calibers I load for are .223, .44, and .32 Win Special.

Pecos45, I fully understand what you are saying and I'm not really trying to make my .06 a magnum but if I wanted to run at factory levels why reload. I could easily find a factory load which would print under and inch and be good to go. I reload so I can realize the hidden potential in each caliber I'm interested in.

Paul B,
You seem to understand my aim here. Sure I may have been optimistic and a bit misguided. That's why I was posting the question. I have numerous manuals and they are all different. Hell, the Sierra manual says I should be getting 2800 fps with only 54 grains. They list the max at 56.7 and then turn around and say the max for a 180 grain is higher? I even think it might be a typo. The Sierra rep I spoke with as much as admitted that their manual is VERY conservative.

Anyway, thanks everyone for all the responses. It's great to have so many knowledgable people as close as a keyboard. I really don't have anybody around here I can pose these kinds of questions to. When you mention you reload to anybody here in California they start looking at you kinda wierd. Course if the $.05 tax on bullets gets past none of us will be reloading or shooting much anymore.

NoCAL

[This message has been edited by NoCAL (edited 04-24-2002).]

I am curious as to why you are "hoping to get around 2900 fps". What if you dont? What if you get 2750 or 28XX ? Who cares? Between 2750-2900 is meaningless. If you are vibrating cases to get powder into them... your barking up the wrong tree, and are waisting time. There are far more important things to do then to vibrate powder into cases, like shooting crickets with rubber bands or something. I would suggest you follow advice of a reputable reloading manual and save the hope for safety.
take care

I found it interesting in the loads listed by sure-shot that the Re 19 and Re 22 loads were so close to the same in weight and performance. I would have expected there to be more distance between these two powders. I also find it interesting that there are so many people who counsel "NEVER EXCEED A MANUAL'S MAXIMUM LOAD!!" when there is such a wide range in "maximum loads" between various loading manuals!! Which maximum should I not exceed? The maximum maximum, or the minimum maximum??

"As for the manuals, remember they are nothing more tha cookbooks, not bibles. That is whay I always advise anyone who asks me to start with minimum loads and work up until they reach either the level of accuracy they desire, or the first signs of pressure start to show." - Steve Ricciardelli

This is sage advice from Steve! Refferencing several manuals, talking to someones tech on a hot line, and gathering data are all good ideas. It will give you an idea of what you may encounter.
I think you should try a faster powder behind the 150gr. or in my choices I like the 165gr. in my '06 as it shoots better than others and is well within the performance I want from that rifle. Enjoy!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eldeguello:
[B]I found it interesting in the loads listed by sure-shot that the Re 19 and Re 22 loads were so close to the same in weight and performance. I would have expected there to be more distance between these two powders.

Maybe this will help explain the similarities between the two powders. This is listed in Alliant Powder's Reloader Guide:

Powder Relative Quickness

RL7 19.4%

RL15 13.7%

RL19 11.3%

RL22 11.1%

RL25 10.5%

Notice how close RL19 & RL22 are in relative quickness rate. DO NOT SUBSTITUE DATA BETWEEN THE TWO!

The Hornady 165 is a great all round bullet for the '06.

There are lots of good observations in this thread.
- Reloading manuals are generally conservative as their listed loads have to be safe in a minimun SAAMI chamber, but few rifles on the market have min chambers.
- But, there is no point in really pushing loads to the max--death or disfigurement is not a lot of fun for you or your friends.

As for me, I will take great accuracy at less than max velocity any minute of any day.

At the shooting range I use, there is a large piece of a revolver cylinder imbedded deeply into a 4x4 post. This is a great reminder of what can happen when something is too aggressive. The shooter was lucky and didn't get seriously hurt, nor did anyone else. (And no, it wasn't me!)

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I know the next rifle will be perfect.......

"As for the manuals, remember they are nothing more tha cookbooks, not bibles. That is whay I always advise anyone who asks me to start with minimum loads and work up until they reach either the level of accuracy they desire, or the first signs of pressure start to show."- Steve Ricciardelli

This is INDEED SAGE ADVICE, and is exactly what I have been doing since becoming "enlightened" about reloading rifle ammo in around 1964...and, doing it this way, I have discovered that some good loads for certain rifles WERE ABOVE what was called maximum in loading manuals...and also, that some rifles "maxed out" at loads which were well below published maximums!! That's why I always laugh when some pundit says "NEVER EXCEED RELOADING MANUAL PUBLISHED MAXIMUM LOADS!! Basically, this is BULL, although it may be good advice for the tyro!!

I read through this and felt I would toss in my 2 cents.
The reason most of us reload (at least for me) is accuracy, not to get hot loads. Just becasue its hot doesnt make it better as stated earlier in this thread. I find it strange that anyone would want to load this hot and risk injury to self or others to get a bullet screaming out the barrel that may not even group. My advice, load to the rifle. Start in the middle and load up and down and look for the one that shoots best, not hottest.
IMHO
JAG

Jag,
As I mentioned, I already have a very accurate hunting load which is not "screaming" out the barrel. Can't a guy experiment? I also have a full tackle box and if one thing starts catching fish too easily, I might try something else to see what else will work. For me it's all about experimenting. I like going to the range, I like seeing what the gun can do. It's not all about finding a load, sighting in your gun and putting it away till hunting season. I have over 10 different types of .224 bullets sitting around my shelf even though I've already got my varmint rifle shooting in the low .3's. I'm not attacking you personally, but nobody seems to care when a race car driver tries to get 10 more horsepower out of his engine. Why do people on these boards get so bent out of shape when someone wants to experiment? Besides, I took everyones advice and backed down. It's not like I'm reckless. I've only been reloading 3 years and I'm willing to listen to those with more experience. I'll go shoot this weekend and report back to the board. Maybe I'll find a magic load and maybe I won't but at least I'll be out shooting.

NoCAL

Go buy a box of Horniday light magnum ammo. It claims 3015 fps for the 30-06 165 gr. You will not be able to beat their velocities at SAMI spec pressures.

Nocal,
ok, first, I aint even close to being bent, thus, the lack of personal attack directed at any one person. Second, yes a man can experiment and do what ever he chooses. I would never tell anyone not to unless I thought that great harm to self or others could be a result of said experiment. But as stated in my previous post, "I" find it strange, not wrong, strange. Example, if you have a good load, groups best for your rifle, and shoots great ever time out, why push the limits of the rifle? Why not funnel your efforts onto tighter groups through repeated practice and tinkering on the rifle? Thats lots of range time spent working on shooting, what we all like to do. To "ME" that seems to be a more effecient use of experiment time.

As far as sighting in, and putting it away until season, doesnt happen in this house as I shoot nearly every weekend and some weeknights. Like allot of the folks on this board.

I can bet that you would get the same response on any serious reloading forum you find. Accuracy not speed. Except 'Overkill' LOL

And lastly, the race car driver thing, at what cost? When a race car obtains 10 more HP, did it take ten more pounds of weight? Did it make a crossmember less rigid due to lightening things up? Again if those hot loads cause groups to open, possible damage to the rifle, is it really a fair trade off? What was obtained? Again nothing personal just a question or two.

Anyway, not trying to ruffle your feathers, just offering my opinion and a little insight.

Happy shooting friend,
JAG
Oregon

I'm going to weigh in on the side of NoCAL. I have NO rifles (edit: except for a 416 RMAG) that I intentionally load lower than what is the hottest, accurate load I can come up with. Why buy a 30-06, then load it down to 300 Savage levels? The only way to find the proper load is through experimentation, as with his 'tackle box' analogy. As he mentioned, he's not trying to blow things up, he's just looking for advice, which it appears he's taken to heart.

If you get a chance, take a look at R15 with the 150's and let us know how it works out, NoCAL.

Good luck,

R-WEST

[This message has been edited by R-WEST (edited 04-25-2002).]

Jag,
Sorry I took things a little too personal and got defensive. You offer good advice.

R-West,
I use Re15 in my .308 and have found 46 grains to be a very accurate load in my Model 99. It's not max but it has done the job for me. I was under the impression in the larger 30.06 case a bit slower powder would be better, even though the bullet remains the same size. I'll give it a try even though I really don't plan on using the 150 grain bullet in the '06. I really like the 165 grain bullet size in the '06 and will probably continue to use some type of 165 grainer for my hunting with that rifle. Now if I was to get drawn for an elk that would be something different. But the chance of that in California is akin to winning the lotery and scoring a date with Catherine Zeta-Jones all in the same day LOL!

NoCAL

NoCal,
No problem at all. Keep us posted.

R-west,
ok.

Again back to accuracy, being the most important result of reloading to me. Loading to the hottest, "accurate", load. Whatever the volocity may be.

Off to the bench,
JAG

My Lee book lists 62.1 grains of RE-19 under a 165 at 58,500 PSI, (at 2890 fps) which I am guessing is close to the 50,000 CUP mark. However, the .25-06 (same size case head and except caliber, is the .30-06 case) lists maximum SAAMI at 54,000 CUP. So, as always, start safe, and work up safe and slowly. Good Luck.

NOCAL, ever tried any other powders for more velocity at safe levels? Also, try this, go up to .30-06 Ackley Improved. 65 grains of many powders is safe in the improved. And 3100 fps with a 165 is safely attainable. A good gunsmith can do this for you for a modest fee, or if you are handy with working on your own firearms, you can purchase the headspace guage and chamber reamer and do it yourself. Good Luck

NoCal Backem down a little we don't want to lose a good member.
David

I'm kinda scared to come in here with all these experts. 'Specially when they're all pissed. The max of a cartridge is not neccessrily all the powder you can cram in. You want a balance. Using the load mentioned, (which I never have) how much of an increase in velocity did you get between 61grs and 65? When loading, you should get a near stright line increase in velocity for each incremental increase in powder. When your gain tails off, you have reached a working max for that load in that rifle. If that wasn't the case, one would just dump powder in the case until he reached 50,000 and call it good.
Also, I think motoring your rifle at top end is a sour idea. As I like to come up with the same finger count refore and after a shooting session, I like to leave a little "insurance" just in case I've made a mistake. Also, I'd hate to have a hunt in the wild and remote ruined by a frozen bolt or broken action.