The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Which Vihtavuori powder for 3000fps with 20 inch barrel in the 308 with 150 TSX's?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Which Vihtavuori powder for 3000fps with 20 inch barrel in the 308 with 150 TSX's? | Login/Join |
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The new "Handloader" magazine has an article on the 308 Win. In this article, the auther mentions a load used by a fellow at Kimber composed of an unspecified Vihtavuori powder and Barnes 150gn TSX bullets at "nearly 3000fps" from a 20 inch barrel. Does an informed shooter have any leads on which powder this might be? Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | ||
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N150 and n540 will get you as close as you're going to get. But I believe you're going to come up short. | |||
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I get 2835 fps (24" BBL)out of the 150 TSX with 47 grains of 748 in Lake City 74 cases/Lee factory crimped on a land of the TSX. Might get a little more next year as I am going to experiment with Moly coating the TSX's to get away from all the copper fouling in my 308 and my 260 AI (130's). This load is seated well off the lands (.085), and is not my fastest, but most accurate load. If a day goes by when you don't learn something - it was a Total Loss! | |||
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I think you are asking too much of the .308 to reach that speed. I have loaded VV 130, 135, 140, & 540 in the .308 and several bullet weights including the 150 BT's. I haven't gotten close with a 24 or 26 inch barrels.  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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Colorado Matt: I shoot a model 7 Remington 20" barrel 1:10 twist. This is not a starting load but I am getting 3019FPS with a ES of 16fps at 70 degrees and 265 feet above sea level. Lake City 89 and 92 Match brass FL sized and trimmed. Federal 215M primers 150 grain Swift Schirocco 51.5 grains W-748 This load shows signs of presure but it gives me .5 groups Warning this load needs to be worked up to it is 5 grains hotter then any published manual. I have actually tried loads as high as 53.grains but the accuracy dropped off at 52.grains and there were pressure signs. I believe 3000 fp can be obtained with BLC2 as well. Hornaday light magnums advertise 3000 fps. I think they use a compressed load or a duplex powder load. Rustystud | |||
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Colorado Matt, gunwriters are famous for terms like 'nearly'--in terms of velocity, 'nearly' 3000 fps probably means something around 2700 fps actual. In a 20" barrel, I suspect anything actually within 100 fps of 3000 (said another way 2900 or better) would be a pretty damn hot load, unless you can get your hands on some of the 'secret' powder Hornady uses in their light magnum loads, or Weatherby in all their factory stuff....... Good shooting--Don | |||
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Why push it ? Can you out-shoot the trajectory difference of a .308 with a 150 loaded to normal pressures (with a hotter load)? The animal sure won't know the difference that gets hit with it. dxr Happiness is a tight group | |||
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Nobody is handloading 150gr bullets to 3000fps in a 20" 308 windchester without excessive pressure, period. Velocity is a pressure sign and that's way faster than they are supposed to be going..........................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I don't want to necessarily "push it". If the load is accurate and does not exceed SAAMI pressures, what's the problem? I see no problem with trying to get the most out of any cartridge within safe limits. This is one of the most appealing aspects of handloading to a lot of shooters. If it's real hot, I would be against it. I load the 222 rem up a bit, but probably no higher than 223 pressures. If you re-read my original post, I did not say that this load was necessarily "hot", but rather "fast" (i.e. "nearly 3000fps"). I too am rather suspicious about this load, but I have never loaded with Vihtavuori powders in the 308, and I do not know what they are capable of. Hence my original question. Perhaps I should have been more concise and asked if a Vihtavuori powder could produce this kind of velocity within SAAMI limits. I did not expect that anyone would assume that I was looking for a "Hot Rod". Matt FISH!! Heed the words of Winston Smith in Orwell's 1984: "Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." | |||
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Matt, I didn't think you were looking for a hot-rod myself, just trying to see if the gunwriters performance was achievable. I think what folks are saying is that 300 FPS in a 20" barrel w/ 150 gr. bullets in a .308 is BS. Trust me, DJ knows what he is talking about, and velcity is indeed a pressure sign. I've seen guns let go when there were no other pressure signs than excessive speed--it ain't pretty! | |||
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The fasted load that Vihtavuori lists for 150gr bullets is 2859fps but that load is in a 24" barrel. Barnes Manual #3 does list some loads for uncoated x bullets at over 2900fps and some over 3000fps with the coated XLC bullet, but again those are in 24" barrels. I still think that in a 20" barrel the only real way to get over 3000fps is to be running way over pressure, even if you were working with some of the listed barnes loads. The TSX load that I use in my 20" 308 shoots 170fps slower than they list for the same load in a 24" barrel with an "X" bullet. The Barnes #3 manual is IMHO in dire need of an upgrade that covers TSX bullets. In my experience the Lapua manuals have been much closer in estimating the actual velocities I've gotten reloading for over a dozen different 308's................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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An obvious choice is to drop down to the 130 gr TSX. Does any one know if there is a meaningful difference in penetration between the 130 gr and the 150 gr TSX? analog_peninsula analog_peninsula ----------------------- It takes character to withstand the rigors of indolence. | |||
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Longshot, Quick Load predicts the pressure of your load at 69200psi. That is 9000psi. above SAAMI. Fred M. zermel@shaw.ca | |||
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For all the Rookies and Beginners who happen to read this thread, here is a classic example of why I recommend a person should, "NEVER buy a Used Firearm that you do not know how it was treated by the previous owner." There is a Mechanical Engineering term called Cumulative Metal Fatigue(CMF) that occurrs when metal has been stressed beyond the normal Design Limits. CMF reduces the overall strength of the metal and allows it to "Fail" at levels normally well below where it is intended to function. There is no way to know "when" the CMF will allow the Failure to occur. You can MagnaFlux as one option, but it only tells you if there are minute fractures present, it can't tell you a lot about CMF. Kind of like lifting very heavy weights for an hour, stopping, then lifting again. And repeating this for 3 days in a row. As you move toward the 4th day, you will not be able to lift near as much due to the Cumulative "Muscle" Fatigue. The big difference is our Muscles will recover, but the Metal won't. This is the exact kind of person that should be avoided when it comes to ANY Reloading advice, since it is obvious Longshot is the Rookiest-of-Rookies. He really thinks he has gained something by going past normal Pressure Limits and is simply way too inexperienced to understand why it is not only a bad idea, but way beyond TOTAL STUPIDITY. | |||
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X2 Hotcore. Well put. | |||
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Until you have tried/used VV-540 don't pass judgements. With prudent pressures and loading I would estimate 120-150 fps gains over re-15 or Varget. I get 2735 fps with a 175 MK in my 308 prone rifle. I have shot this load at a variety of temps and it's safe. 2950-3000 with a 150 is possible. Personally for hunting the 308 is at it's best with a 165 NP at 2675 fps...nothing lacking. | |||
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Well said Hot Core. I have a 7mm08 that goes to 3 gr over any published max load before I see any sign of pressure BUT I care about my rifle so I don't load that hot. Someone mentioned a few weeks ago how chronographs have ruined a lot of accurate rifles due to people focusing on speed rather than accuracy and reliability. | |||
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There are some exceptions to the common reloadig rules which a reloader can take advantage of. 308 Cases from various makers can vary in H2o volume by as much as 3.0gr. The milsurp 7.62 even more. We don't know what cases where used by the testing firm. 3.0 gr H2o= about 2.85 gr of powder with a SG .94 or so. If you make 204 from 222Rem Mag, your case will have 3.0gr+ less H2o. Published loads will in these cases be bad news. So you always should check the volume of you cases and compare them with published velocities. One other ting powder makers blend their lots to get close to an estabished burn rate. But they alow themself a 10%+- burnrate. I have a powder lot at present that is 8% slower.In a regular SAAMI load this is hardly noticable. Start 10-15% low is not a joke. So if different cases are used you can use the 2.8gr or what ever in your work up. Providing the velocity falls in line with the published data. About used rifles, abuse is possible and common. I bought a 243 Rem Mountain rifle. A standard load was 300 ft under the data. 4-5 gr of extra powder was needed to get standard velocities. Why? Some body had reamed out the body so the shoulder dimension was .470 instead of .454. This was not obvious until you measured a fired case. That barrel did not shoot well and not worth the cost of a custom die. So I put on a new barrel. Fred M. zermel@shaw.ca | |||
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I'd be willing to bet that your prone rifle doesn't have a 20" barrel. The loads mentioned above are way over pressure. As much as I hate to agree with Hot Core he's right. Those loads should be backed off before parts start flying off his rifles and someone gets hurt............DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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If you want more than 3000 ft/s in your 20" barrel without pressure you need 130 gr GS Custom bullets. Have a look at their website. (www.gscustom.co.za) | |||
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Your asking too much of the 308 Win.........one of my favorite rounds. Varget is my favorite powder along with IMR 4895. Good Tough bullet the 150 TSX.....max load of Varget with CCI BR2 primers in WW cases is one good black bear load in the 308 Win. Jeff North Pole, Alaska Red Team 98 | |||
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I get 3090fps with 50grns of w748 and a 150 btip, everyong freaks out when I tell them about this load, but it is out of a 26" CZ 308 varmint, so that explains some of the velocity in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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HC I hate to admit agreeing 100% on anything to do with pressure with ya, but I`ll give that you`re probably 99% right this time.  Knowing you are over book, admiting to seeing pressure signs, and still useing the load isn`t the most prudent of practices. If one looks at the books for max velocity from Alliant, Hodgdon, IMR, ect he will find they all are very close with one of their powders to the other at very similar pressure. To think one manufacture has the "magic" formula for a super powder that will let you excede noticably, the velocities reached by another companies product isn`t realistic. If VV has came up with a powder that will allow this I`d think every rag writer in the business would be extolling it. I have not seen mention of it nor a powder that allows matching the "high energy" loads of Hornady or Federal yet with EQUAL pressures. JMHO.......  ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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The 26" barrel accounts for some of the extra velocity but it's also the fact that your running 1.5grs over the maximum load listed by winchester/hornady and are running higher than normal pressures. They list 48.5grs of powder in a 24" barrel giving 2865fps. http://www.wwpowder.com/data/rifle/308win.php 2" of barrel isn't giving you an extra 225fps - you are running substantially higher pressures than are prudent...........................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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This load comes strait from the lyman 48th edition manual, it is also the lowest pressure of the max loads tested at 43200 cup. I think w748 is overlooked when loading a 308 with 150's as this load produces 5 shot groups in the 6's. RL15 is the powder for bullets in the 165grn class in times when one needs a rifle, he tends to need it very badly.....PHC | |||
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Cummins, Checking other manuals the Speer, Sierra and Barnes manuals list 49.9 to 50.0grs of 748 with 150gr bullets in the 308, The new Hornady manual lists 46.7! as max. The Sierra manual lists there test barrel as 26" the same as yours and lists 2900fps as their velocity. I don't know if I've ever seen a listed max load blow up a rifle, though in your case where you are running 190fps faster than the manual lists in the same length barrel you are running higher pressures than they are, Velocity is a pressure sign. Maybe I should rephrase from "substantially higher pressures than is prudent" to "higher pressures than may prove prudent"......................DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I'm just reading over this thread again. I'll tell you I'm chuckling a little or is that a lot. This fellow is using a 20" barrel. Now any of you that have a load here I'll just challenge you a little and ask you for the source of the data you're using for your load (Manual and Volume number). I’m not interested in any BS. Quiet frankly I'd be amazed to see him get to 2900 fps. Hot Core pretty much hits the nail right on the head here no doubt in my mind. | |||
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............DJ ....Remember that this is all supposed to be for fun!.................. | |||
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I, for the first time, shot some 150 gr. TSX's in my 308 last Saturday. I have an 8 lb. jug of Mil-Surp 4895. Although it's not the best powder for a 308, I used it 'cause I have so much of it. Bottom line: my last load (46.0 gr.)with this powder netted 2812 fps. This out of an 18 1/2" barrel. The clincher is that this rifle is a Mauser with an absurdly long throat allowing bullets to be seated very, very long. So, I am able to get copious amounts of powder in the case; more powder than your could possibly compress into your average 308. I've no doubt that I could get 2900 fps or maybe even more out of this rifle with a 150 gr bullet especially if I used a ball powder. But why? Until now I've used 150 gr. Remington Cor-Lokt @ around 2750 fps with total satisfaction, so I see little need in more velocity. The TSX load(s) were just experimental loads to give me an idea where to go with tis bullet. "Only accurate rifles are interesting"- Col. Townsend Whelen | |||
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Thanks for the concurrance from all of you. I normally don't get into specific Load recommendations, but I do look for anything on this Board that can get the Beginners/Rookies in trouble without them knowing it. And from those who agreed with the gist of my initial post, it is obvious there are a bunch of folks who are doing the same thing. I see " 8 " folks ahead of my post that basically said, "Don't try to push it too fast." I commend each of you. --- We don't all have to agree about everything concerning each step of reloading, but it sure is nice to see all of you folks looking after ColoradoMatt. --- Hey Matt, There are a lot of very experienced reloaders on this Board giving you excellent information. The 308Win kills way out yonder with normal Pressure Loads. Use it and enjoy it as I have since the mid-`50s. It is blessed with a bunch of Powders which work exceptionally well in it. And it has the potential to be one of the most accurate Cartridges you will ever own. When you want more Velocity, just get a 300WinMag, 300Wby or 300RUM. They have plenty of velocity and can provide it at SAFE Pressures. That is basically the same thing these other knowledgeable reloaders are telling you. Listen to all of them. (Even DJ and Ol' Joe  )Good huting and clean 1-shot kills. | |||
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in simple terms Velocity = Pressure x Dwell Time (time under the "pressure curve"). So far there are no magic powders that violate this rule of physics. That's what Hotcore is trying to tell you. To increase velocity, you have to increase either pressure, or dwell time. To increase dwell time, you have to use more of a slower burning powder. Powder capacity of the case limits how much and how slow a burning powder you can use. YOU may be able to get 3,000 fps out of a .308, with 150 gr. bullets in a 20" barrel at safe pressures (i.e., pressures which don't occasionally create unsafe brass flow), but so far I haven't. Listen to him and the others here who have told you the same thing in different words. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Which Vihtavuori powder for 3000fps with 20 inch barrel in the 308 with 150 TSX's?
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