There are many opinions on this subject but I shot my smallest group today ( .200 ) with an Forster FLS. The Forster NS shot .330 which is not bad but I think I will stick with FLS going forward.
I assume the best setup may be custom dies that would minimize the working on the brass vs one made for all rifles.

The rifle was a garage built Rem 700 7mm-08varmint barrel from a 1990 vintage rifle screwed into a 1971 action. Action bedded and barrel floated. Remington brass and no neck turning or weighing or deburred flash hole.
CCI BR2 primers, 46.5 gr of H4350 and Sierra 130 gr match bullets.

I think I'm with you, Dwight.

It's been an evolution.

Just a few months back, neck sizing was all I wanted. I knew it would move the brass less, and result in longer brass life.

I hate lube pads, and I started neck sizing--okay, this is about a year ago--and using graphite to lube the necks in neck dies.

I now work for a target rifle 'smith, and he's a FLS guy. He's old--LOL--but he's made the US Veterans Team a couple of times, and the target rifles he builds are tight.

Not to mention he graduated from Trinidad in '58.

So.

We've been going back and forth on this for months, but... in my 6.5x55 1909 Mauser, my two best groups, fairly impressive, one, five shots .675 at 200 yds, have been FLS.

New brass, which I habitually full length size.

Was this sizing technique, or operator (shooter) error when shooting?

I don't know.

I do know I'm looking for some good spray-on lube--Hornady?--and FL Redding bushing dies.

I loved the idea that neck-sized brass conformed to the chamber, moved less brass, but... for better or for worse, after working for a target rifle guy, I've been seduced by small group size.

flaco

BTW... My boss likes Forster products.

I have always FLS in reloading except sometimes I don't push the shoulder back by leaving the die 1/4-1/2 thread from the shell holder.

I truly suspect better case life by neck sizing only......but just FL size as I always have!

Are you sure it wasn't the injun and not the arrow? I know my rifle shoots 1/8in groups, but I don't routinely do that, it's that damn third shot that fucks me up.

Besides .2 and .3in isn't exactly an epiphany............

The bottom line is congrats to shooting in the 1/4in range, but the difference between the two groups has got absolutely nothing at all to do with FL vs NS. You're shooting good groups because you take the time to carefully make your ammo.

Well, you left out Partial Full Length Resizing!!!!

And we need to have some definitions so we know we are all talking about the same thing.

Neck Sizing - resizing the neck so that no part of the case body or shoulder is sized

Partial Full Length Resizing - resizing the neck and the case body and leaving at least some contact between the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder

Full Length Resizing - resizing the neck, the case body and moving the shoulder back so there is no contact between the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder, i.e. creating headspace

Under those conditions I vote for Partial Full Length Resizing. If you don't have a Hornady (they bought Stoney Point) Head and Shoulders Gauge then the only way to tell if you have shoulder contact is to chamber the case as you size (I put that in for you HC since I know you don't have any modern equipment ).

If you are going to say you are Full Length Resizing without measuring how much you have pushed the shoulder, at least tell us how you adjusted the die.

FL sizing has been shown many times to make accurate loads. I just never set the shoulders back. Case life is not much different that way. The only thing I am cautious about are dies that size the neck more then is needed and having to force the expander plug out with too much force. Dies have to be tweaked just like the rifles.

If you always FLS, sooner or later you're going to find a rifle that will begin having early case failures. Belted cases are the worst offenders, but I've seen it in every headspace design.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
There are many opinions on this subject but I shot my smallest group today ( .200 ) with an Forster FLS.

Dwight, now send your FL die to Forster and have them hone the internal neck diameter to be (loaded neck diameter - .004" or .005"). Have Forster supply an extra decap assembly with the expander ball removed. The modification of the die is $10, plus shipping, plus the expander assembly.

Now you can FL (or better: PFL) size without the pesky expander. Yet, you have an expander handy should a case mouth be dented or new cases need to be straightened out.

This is one of the best die set-ups IMHO.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
FL sizing has been shown many times to make accurate loads. I just never set the shoulders back.

Exactly what I mean when I say we need definitions. You can't Full Length Resize and not set the shoulders back. Contradiction in terms.

We are all talking about different things cause there is no common understanding of what the terms mean.

mho

Question, if you get the die honed out like you're talking about, won't that push all the irregularities from different neck thicknesses to the inside of the neck and affect bullet grip consistancy and release?

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
...I vote for Partial Full Length Resizing. If you don't have a Hornady (they bought Stoney Point) Head and Shoulders Gauge then the only way to tell if you have shoulder contact is to chamber the case as you size (I put that in for you HC since I know you don't have any modern equipment )....

Hey Woods, Thank you. Nice to see you recognize "the best way" to P-FLR, even if you hose it up with the SP thingy.

Maybe Hornady will just "Buy them - and - Burn them!"

What rifles are you guys shooting these .1s .2s and .3s with.

quote:

Originally posted by woods:
mho

Question, if you get the die honed out like you're talking about, won't that push all the irregularities from different neck thicknesses to the inside of the neck and affect bullet grip consistancy and release?

Woods, in all honesty I don't KNOW what the brass looks like at a microscopic level after I have sized it - be it on the inside after sizing without an expander or on the outside after sizing with. What I do know, is that I try to avoid the use of a conventional expander - they are just too commonly associated with runout for my taste. I have never really liked the idea of sizing down the necks a whole bunch, and then wrestling an expander trough them to achieve the final diameter. Granted, this probably has advantages with work hardened cases, but other than that, I see it as unnecessarily working the brass. Besides, sizing without an expander is a whole bunch smoother and does away with the need to lube the inside of case necks.

There are several die types which do not use expanders. Foremost are probably the Redding Competition Bushing NS, and equivalent (custom) dies from various shops catering to the BR crowd. I happen to like dies without bushings (and expanders), although they are not as versatile as bushing dies, they tend to produce absolute minimal runout - often less than .001". I tend to go with a fair amount of neck tension - .004 - .005" for hunting rounds - possibly to help me overcome issues of varying neck tension, be it created by varying brass quality or microscopic irregularities in the brass?

www.6mmBR.com has a little writeup on the customized Forster dies. Read it and see what you think.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
FL sizing has been shown many times to make accurate loads. I just never set the shoulders back.

Exactly what I mean when I say we need definitions. You can't Full Length Resize and not set the shoulders back. Contradiction in terms.

We are all talking about different things cause there is no common understanding of what the terms mean.

mho

Hmmm, what if someone is using a die screwed all the way into the press with a shellholder combination that just happens to perfectly match the chamber of their rifle- isn't that full length resizing?

FWIW, I define the terms a little differently than you. You seem to define PFL sizing as as tailoring a setup to a specific chamber and FL sizing as oversizing a case (given the fact that most dies are tight and most factory chambers are sloppy that's pretty much how it usually works).

As I use the terms full length resizing involves using a FL sizing die and setting it up for full contact with the shellholder; PFL involves backing the die off of the shellholder to some degree. This is a good idea if (and this is typical) your die is oversizing your brass. Oversizing brass and the resulting increase in headspace can be a real problem- it may impact accuracy and case life will not be as good (in extreme cases, it can cause head separation).

But PFL has its drawbacks: because the die isn't getting squared up by contact with the shellholder you might(MIGHT) get excessive runout which might (again, MIGHT) impact accuracy

If your obsess about this stuff the Redding Competition shellholders are a Godsend and they've made the whole FL vs PFL sizing debate irrelevant- you can tailor your die setup to your rifle and get all of the benefits of full length resizing without oversizing your cases.

Thanks, belaw-

For bringing up the Redding Competition Shellholders.

http://www.redding-reloading.com/techlinepages/compshell.htm

This seems to me the best approach to PFLR, especially were one run cases for more than one rifle through the same dies.

flaco

quote:

Originally posted by mho:

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
There are many opinions on this subject but I shot my smallest group today ( .200 ) with an Forster FLS.

Dwight, now send your FL die to Forster and have them hone the internal neck diameter to be (loaded neck diameter - .004" or .005"). Have Forster supply an extra decap assembly with the expander ball removed. The modification of the die is $10, plus shipping, plus the expander assembly.

Now you can FL (or better: PFL) size without the pesky expander. Yet, you have an expander handy should a case mouth be dented or new cases need to be straightened out.

This is one of the best die set-ups IMHO.

- mike

Thanks for that idea. Aparently the dies are very good quality as far as alignment goes and the honing of the neck part is a great idea. I will have to give them a call.

Woods,
So we are on the same page with FLS and PFLS , I set the die up so that it bumps the shell holder. Upon sizing there is a couple thousandths flex. I can see just a little bit of light between the die and shell holder on a full stroke. I don't have a head and shoulders gauge but I do have the other Stoney point thingy that HC does not have or believe in.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
What rifles are you guys shooting these .1s .2s and .3s with.

My rifle is not a BR rifle and a lot of gunsmiths would really disagree with my creation method but it works.
Both of my 7mm-08s will shoot in the .2s. One is a 20" varmint barrel and one is a 24" varmint. There have been no mechanical improvements made other than bedding the action and floating the barrels. I lightened up the triggers and that is it.
The 7mm-08 that I got the tightest group with was a 22-250 that shot in the .3s and I think it would do better but shot 2 groups in the .3s and bought it just to get the action for the 7mm-08 barrel that I had.

quote:

Originally posted by belaw:

Hmmm, what if someone is using a die screwed all the way into the press with a shellholder combination that just happens to perfectly match the chamber of their rifle- isn't that full length resizing?

Well, I would think the custom die would have to be .001" or so smaller all around in order to size enough so that the case did not bind. If you fire a case enough times the case will stop springing back and it would get difficult to chamber. The same case put into the custom die would have to be sized at least a little. I would call that Partial Full Length Resizing because you would have a slight crush fit and the chamber would hold the case in place. In Full Length Resizing the chamber does not hold the case in place cause the case body is not chamber size nor is the shoulder in contact all the way around. The shoulder may be in contact on one side due to gravity or the ejector button pushing it over to one side.

quote:

Originally posted by belaw:

As I use the terms full length resizing involves using a FL sizing die and setting it up for full contact with the shellholder

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:

Woods,
So we are on the same page with FLS and PFLS , I set the die up so that it bumps the shell holder.

belaw, not most of the time. It depends upon your chamber size but RCBS die instructions for Full Length Resizing are:

"Screw the full length sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the shell holder is brought up to the top of the press stroke. Be sure all play is removed from the press leverage system. To do at this, adjust the die as above, lower the shell holder and set the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down so the press cams over center. Set the large lock nut and you're ready to size."

If you monitor this with a gauge you will see that at 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down is where the shoulder is pushed back at least .003". It relieves the contact between the case-head/bolt-face area and the case-shoulder/chamber-shoulder area.

Dwight, question when you resize as you described, do you chamber the case and see if you have a crush fit which is demonstrated by the bolt being harder to close?

That's what I mean about not having common definitions. When someone make a blanket statement about FL sizing being more "more accurate", they may in fact be what others would call PFLR'ing (or even neck sizing with some body sizing but not pushing the shoulder back).

I've been thinking about the Redding Competition shellholders but I find I can place the shoulder where I want with a gauge and Redding Body Die adjustment. The .002" difference between shellholders can mean the difference between a heavy crush fit and no shoulder contact. I can typically adjust the dies to push the shoulder in increments of .0005".

You are much more precise than I am and I am not sure how much more anal I want to get with technicals. Just looking at the type of rifles that I have I think I am about maxed out.
When I close the bolt it is not a crush fit but I can feel the slightest bit of resistance compared to a new case. I shoot the same bullets on two rifles and they both shoot really well the way that I have everything set up. I think my challenge now is to work on me and the trigger finger to see how often and shoot the low numbers. The guy that let me use his barrel vise to put this rifle together ask me to shoot with his group and I may. No thoughts of winning anything but will certainly help improve my skills. I really need to replace the BSA scope for a better view of the targets.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
When I close the bolt it is not a crush fit but I can feel the slightest bit of resistance compared to a new case.

Then you are Partial Full Length Resizing

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
There are many opinions on this subject but I shot my smallest group today ( .200 ) with an Forster FLS. The Forster NS shot .330 which is not bad but I think I will stick with FLS going forward.
I assume the best setup may be custom dies that would minimize the working on the brass vs one made for all rifles.

The rifle was a garage built Rem 700 7mm-08varmint barrel from a 1990 vintage rifle screwed into a 1971 action. Action bedded and barrel floated. Remington brass and no neck turning or weighing or deburred flash hole.
CCI BR2 primers, 46.5 gr of H4350 and Sierra 130 gr match bullets.

When I get a 5 shot group under .5" at 100 yards, I reach the good enough for hunting point.

That said, I prefer Forster FL with factory lapped neck. They do this for $10+ shipping.

OK, I will have to go with definitions. What I said was fl sizing makes accurate loads but I partial size myself so the bolt closes with a little effort. For some guns I neck size only until the action gets hard to close, then I will PFL them.
I do this for case life. Can't afford to buy brass too much.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dwight:
There are many opinions on this subject but I shot my smallest group today ( .200 ) with an Forster FLS. The Forster NS shot .330 which is not bad but I think I will stick with FLS going forward.
I assume the best setup may be custom dies that would minimize the working on the brass vs one made for all rifles.

Dwight, I don't doubt you shot those groups and that is damn good shooting, but in one sentence you claim how good FLS is, then in the next you say that custom dies would be the best. Well basically that's pretty close to NS. I think you need to shoot a series of groups with both methods before I would be a firm believer in FLS, as I'm not. I neck size.

Ask the benchrest folks what type of sizing they use.

I do as Jim does, neck size, then FLS when the brass gets to fitting tight.

Joe

quote:

Originally posted by starmetal:
...Ask the benchrest folks what type of sizing they use.
Joe

You won't get a clear FL or NS answer. Some neck size, others FL size. However, these days FL (or at least some form of sizing bumping the case shoulder) is becoming more and more popular. There are a couple of reasons for this. One is that BR shooting takes place at PRETTY HIGH pressures these days. That has an effect on how the brass expands and contracts after firing, and consequently how easily it chambers after reloading. Secondly, BR shooters are concerned with how much the gun is disturbed on the bags in the process of extracting and loading a round. Smooth feeding and bolt closure is an advantage here, consequently a lot (most?) of today's BR shooters gravitate towards (some form of) FL sizing.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by woods:

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
When I close the bolt it is not a crush fit but I can feel the slightest bit of resistance compared to a new case.

Then you are Partial Full Length Resizing

I guess there is only a couple thousandths between PFL and FLS. Actually I do both at the same time. The bolt closes easy on one of the 708s so that round is FLS. If I put the same round in the other 708 and it is just slightly making a some contact then that round is also PFL. I understand how you are arriving at your statement but my round is one or the other depending on which rifle I put it in. Those mutltiple personality bullets shoot crazy don't they.

quote:

Originally posted by b beyer:
What rifles are you guys shooting these .1s .2s and .3s with.

Pre War mod 70, second month production (March 1936), 270 Win, 24in Krieger barrel, Conetrol rings on custom bases.

RWS brass (neck sized w/ .001in neck tension), Fed 210M, 56.0gr IMR 4831, 130gr TSX @ 3000fps.

After I shot the second to last group I saw a crack in the stock in the right rear magazine area, got it fixed and another 1/8in group was the next group when I got the rifle back.

FMC, that's a pretty looking rifle. If you're shooting 130gr bullets, would that make it chambered for the 270 Winchester? You didn't say.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
FMC, that's a pretty looking rifle. If you're shooting 130gr bullets, would that make it chambered for the 270 Winchester? You didn't say.

Yes. Post edited.

Nice looking rifle. Thanks to all that commented. Tomorrow I will be shipping my dies to Forster to get the FLS neck to match the NS neck sizer. The FLS is sizing .013 from the fired diameter which is working the brass a little too much.