I have a 30-06 bolt rifle. My goal is to use it for hunting in mixed season where I can take large and small game. The 30-06 has been used to take every game animal in North America, but the bullet I use for rabbits would not make a great grizzly bear bullet.

I have some 165gr JSP bullets and I have some 115gr Lead bullets. I would like them to be close to the same POI.

Has anyone been able to get 2 bullets to hit the same spot at a specific range?

Yes, it can be done. Oftentimes it's accidental. In my .375H&H, the plain jane Federal 300 gr roundnose happen to hit the same point as 270 gr Barnes XLC.

Most of the time, however, the objective is to get a solid and a soft to hit at the same point and the bullets are similar weights. The bullets you describe are quite different, but until you try a couple of loads you won't know. Though you may have to give up a lot of velocity with one or the other to make it work.

You might have an easier time with a Kahles multizero scope.

LWD

I wouldn't hunt either rabbits or Grizzly with the '06. But, I'll bite on what seems like a bit of a crazy question. Yup...play with some loads and see where they go. Apparently you want a slow plinking load to go where a faster hunting bullet will go. It can happen with the first loads you try or you may have to pick slower/faster powder combos to get the job done.
BTW.....you do know you can adjust your scope right!!? It can be done in just a couple of shots.....I don't think jack rabbit and grizzly season run the same time...gosh I'm a smart aleck.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
I have some 165gr JSP bullets and I have some 115gr Lead bullets. I would like them to be close to the same POI.

They can be made to coincide at one range, but at one range only. You won't be able to achieve similar trajectories. They would need to have the same BC.
.

Just a suggestion: Try a ballistic program like the one offered by Norma (free) http://www.norma.cc/default.asp?Lang=2#
then click Ballistic US. Then put in the data and check the ballistic curves. I think you'll find it difficult to accomplish what you desire. I tried doing something similar to what your doing with my 30-06 and I could never get close enough that I could use the same scope setting for both bullets.

I have a 30/06 and load it with Barnes 165 gr. TSX and 165 gr. Banded Solid bullets and they both shoot to the same point of impact at 100 yards. I load them over Varget and they're both good for 1 MOA or better with the best accuracy being from the solids.

It is always discouraging to get answers to the question that one did not ask.

Yest it is possible to get what you are wanting, though for the cast load you are going to have to pick a range and shoot powders and load levels until you get it or close and then apply "Kentucky Windage" at any other distance.

I would guess light loads using unique or possibly Red Dot or Bullseye would accomplish your goal.

The jacket contamination in the bore may be the biggest obstacle to your plan, it may well reduce the most accurate cast load to MOR (Minute of Rabbit) rather than MOA.

Cast bullet forum would be a good place to post this info request.

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/

Good luck and what the heck, a day spent shooting at the range beats a day at the office anytime.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
... Yup...play with some loads and see where they go. ... It can happen with the first loads you try or you may have to pick slower/faster powder combos to get the job done. BTW.....you can adjust your scope... ...

Excellent post!

I agree that you might find convergent Points-of-Impact quickly, it might take a good bit of Testing, or it might never happen.

Adjusting the scope is a quick, easily repeatable step that will resolve your issue "if" you don't find the Magic Combination as quickly as you want.

As for me, I'd get the best Accuracy I could get with both Loads, Zero the Scope for the Primary Hunting Load and do as Kraky suggested - adjust the Scope if needed for the Secondary Load. If you choose the Scope Adjustment Method, I can recommend you go Past where you want the Final Setting 2-clicks and then Back-Up those same 2-clicks. That used to help insure proper Internal Tracking. It may not be necessary today, but I still do it.

Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills.

There are several different cartridges which are known for having closely coinciding points of impact for different bullet weight loads. I can think of two right off, the .270 Win. & the .375 H&H Magnum. The '06 is NOT in this group, but I see no reason why you could not experiment with jacketed and cast, or reduced-charge jacketed, bullet loads to try to develop such a combination.

I had a nice pre-64 M 70 Win. Featherweight in .308 Win. for which I found such a combination. It consisted of the 165-grain Sierra HPBT with 51 grains of H380 (MV 2800 FPS), and the Lyman 31141 160 grain (cast as a hollowpoint) with 45 grains of H4831 (MV 1800 FPS).

For some reason, these two loads shot into the same +-1.5" group at 100 yards. If I ever get another .308, I will test these loads again, to see if I can duplicate this performance (or was it possible only with one specific rifle???).

It sounds highly possible. Slower, heavier bullets tend to shoot higher than faster lighter ones, so, slower lighter bullets could very well be easy to get close to heavier, faster ones. What are the ranges at which each quarry are to be taken? Is a 165gr JSP suitable for grizzly?

why not use the same bullet for everything? pretty sure a 165gr JSP will kill a rabbit pretty easily. no messing around then, nice and simple.

if you want to be anymore complicated then just buy another rifle... pretty easy to justify buying a 223!

quote:

why not use the same bullet for everything? pretty sure a 165gr JSP will kill a rabbit pretty easily. no messing around then, nice and simple.

if you want to be anymore complicated then just buy another rifle... pretty easy to justify buying a 223!

Well,... that may be true but I kinda like the idea of using cast pistol (or even jacketed) pistol bullets with light loads in my hunting rifle just as ddunn wants to do. I have also thought of pistol bullets a high velocity but that would only work where noise is no problem. Good shooting practice with the same gun! In fact, I have a box of cast 32 pistol bullets - 90gr, I think. You guys have given me an idea. Mmmmm.....

ddunn, sometimes 32 cast bullets work better in 30 caliber rifles. Something to do with bore alignment in a throat designed for jacketed bullets.

I am amazed at how many people don’t get it.

This is about carrying one rifle to the woods and shooting two very different animals (for food).
You can not do this with the scope adjustment method.
You can't carry two rifles to the woods. I can kind of do this with a shotgun, but a rifle should be better. I could buy a drilling or other combo gun, but that costs more money.



This is also about going cheap. Cast bullets are cheap. If I can get this to work, I will be more cost effective.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
I am amazed at how many people don’t get it.

This is about carrying one rifle to the woods and shooting two very different animals (for food).
You can not do this with the scope adjustment method.
You can't carry two rifles to the woods. I can kind of do this with a shotgun, but a rifle should be better. I could buy a drilling or other combo gun, but that costs more money.



This is also about going cheap. Cast bullets are cheap. If I can get this to work, I will be more cost effective.

I believe a lot of the old-timers did exactly what you are talking about-Colonel Townsend Whelen is one that I recall right away. He had a cast bullet load for shooting grouse & other small game with the same .30/'06 he used regular softpoints in for big game. Right off, I don't recall what his loads were, but I suspect he wrote about them in his various books.......

35 whelen with 200 gr hornady @2600 and cast 158 RNFP plain based @1500, not perfect but close enough for small game out to 50 yds with the pistol bullets, elev has always been easier to solve than windage variation.

I have done something similar with my 30-06 with some success. I have a 125g PSP Rem load that shoots around 2550 fps to the same point of impact as my 180g 2700 fps hunting load.

For my rifle heavier, slower rounds DO NOT impact higher on the target, (as is true with pistols) but lower. I suspect this is due to the nature of the barrel whip effect for this particular rifle. In my experiments similar to slightly slower velocities with much lighter bullets have the best chance of being close to point of aim at 100 yards.

My cast bullet experiments can group well but are not close in POI even at 50 yds. Your rifle may be different, so try it at 25 and 50 yds to see how it is.

I have managed to work out 180, 150, and 125g bullet loads within an inch or so of each other at 100 yds. It provides for good practice and fun shooting.

Just another reason I keep coming back to that caliber.....

Cheers,

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by Dan H:
My cast bullet experiments can group well but are not close in POI even at 50 yds. Your rifle may be different, so try it at 25 and 50 yds to see how it is.

That got me thinking.
Although I will be shooting deer at 100+yards, I will try to shoot rabbits closer.
Hmm, something to think about.

I think I will start working on a load for the 115gr and keeping a log in comparison to a factory load I have.

And do the same for my heavier bullets.

After I have some data, I will deturmine If I got lucky.

It is not at all difficult to accomplish. While I have not done so in a 30-06, I have in several other caliebrs.

For instance, in a Rem 788 22-250, my standard hunting load is a 55 grain bullet at a shade over 3600 fps. Point of impact is 1.5" high at 100 yards.

USing a 45 grain Hornet bullet at 1900 fps (pelt load for fox and raccoon) gives me a dead-on impact at 100 yards. That's sufficient as I do not use it beyond that range.

So the points-of-impact are not identical but instead are best suited to the individual load's application.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:After I have some data, I will deturmine If I got lucky.

And if your spelling will have gotten get better.
.

So...are the deer going to stand around while you switch over to the jacketed shells? Are the grouse going to wait while you switch over to the lead shells?? I guess I should count my lucky stars that I can afford $.15 for jacketed bullets. I have beheaded a few grouse and rabbits with my deer hunting loads but never considered the need to switch back and forth between ammo. The whole idea seems so frugal to me that it's almost beyond belief.

30 years ago I did it with a 243--got the 90gr solid and the 100gr Nos FB to shoot the same POI at 100(within .4 of each other). Had a 100gr chambered for the big deer and the next round was the 90 gr solid because the turkey would not hear the chambering of the 90 grain round.

Actually found that really there was little difference in the damage when hit anyplace but the neck and head..

It can be done..

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
So...are the deer going to stand around while you switch over to the jacketed shells? Are the grouse going to wait while you switch over to the lead shells?? I guess I should count my lucky stars that I can afford $.15 for jacketed bullets. I have beheaded a few grouse and rabbits with my deer hunting loads but never considered the need to switch back and forth between ammo. The whole idea seems so frugal to me that it's almost beyond belief.

Some people just just don't get it. It has nothing to do with frugality. the idea is if the opportunity shows itself to take some small game, be they grouse, rabbits whatever for the pot that the quiter shot of the small game load is less liable to spook any big game in the area.
It's not all that easy to get the small game load to hit point of aim at say 25 yards with the normal sight in for the big game load. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don't. Mine is a 120 gr. cast plain based round nose bullet that when sighted in for my normal hunting round uses the top of the point of the duplex reticle to make point of impact at 25 years. damned if I even know the velocity bit it is accurate enough at 25 yards to head shoot a cottontail rabbit or snip the head off a chukar partridge for the pot. It's not all that hard to quietly open the bolt, slip the full power load from the chamber and replace it with the small game load and take the shot.
It's not much use to even say what the load is because it only works in one of the several 30-06 rifles I own. Those that want to try it must work up their own load for their rifle. The powder I used in my gun is Unique and with a 120 gr. casr bullet or something similar, try 4.0 gr. with a dacron was (one grain in weight) with a 100 to 120 gr, byullet and tinker with the load until you have success. If Unique doesn't work, try 2400 or 4227.
IIRC, Whelen in his book THE HUNTING RIFLE did not give specific loads for the small game loads. IIRC, the powders he used were #80 and Lightning which are long gone from the reloading scene.
Anyway, the use of the quieter loads is not only feasible but works out very well.
Paul B.

quote:

This is also about going cheap. Cast bullets are cheap. If I can get this to work, I will be more cost effective.

Actually it appears it was about frugality. You bring up a good point about having a quiet shot. For our hunting here in Wisconsin Deer and grouse are extremely jumpy and will run/fly at the first sound of a metallic click. Switching cartridges while hoping the animal will be nice and stick around wouldn't be wise.
I realize in other areas of the world animals aren't quite as "human weary" and may let you get away with it. May those of you who see great merit in the plinking load/hunting load idea be the terminators of all good things tasty!

Kranky, you really come off cranky. We online can ignore you pretty easily, but that will not do anyone any good. I try to save that for spelling/grammar Nazis who don’t contribute to the thread. From what I have seen, I could have shot several rabbits, & squirrels and 1 bobwhite quail over the years. I even pulled out the cartridge and dry fired on a rabbit one day.

I have also done the heavy bullet, light load, = slow bullet, quiet load. This works pretty good for a 45-70, but be careful not to get the bullet stuck in the barrel and I still get a decent pop. The pop is close to a pellet rifle. I assumed when I shot this load that the only game I was going home with is the game I am shooting at.

Additionally, I own a suppressor. I have developed subsonic rounds that are very quiet. I am still working on these projects because it is a multi-use item. If you live in a state where you can legally hunt with a suppressor, I highly recommend doing it.

This project is slightly different. It is about using what I have, being frugal, and getting more from the same rifle. I am currently unemployed so….. And I didn’t think this would be controversial, I was expecting a more technical discussion. Kranky, you may be right. I may end up shooting premium bullets into less than premium game.

quote:

Originally posted by kraky:
So...are the deer going to stand around while you switch over to the jacketed shells? Are the grouse going to wait while you switch over to the lead shells?? I guess I should count my lucky stars that I can afford $.15 for jacketed bullets. I have beheaded a few grouse and rabbits with my deer hunting loads but never considered the need to switch back and forth between ammo. The whole idea seems so frugal to me that it's almost beyond belief.

The ones in Alaska often do. That's why they are called "fool hens"!

"A man who can only spell a word one way has a limited imagination." - Mark Twain
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Hey DDunn, If the scope adjustinging is not something you want to do, I get it.

Just work on the Lead Load until you get the accuracy you want, sight in for it and then see how close your Bambi Blaster is at the longest distance you would normally attempt a shot at one.

I personally have no use for "Fillers" because they can "Ring" a barrel. I also "get it" if ANYONE ELSE wants to use a Filler.

Hi;Look up the site; Hammond Game Getter:It's an altered case that takes caliber specific lead roundballs and 22cal blanks,3 power levels to choose from(the kind that r used in carpenters nail guns0.The price is under $50.A good variety of calibers.

Well, ddunn, I think it is an excellent idea! You have given me an idea - that is to do exactly the same as you - and just this evening I have begun prepping cases for loading with the pistol bullets I have. I made an expander to re-open sized case necks to take a paper patched cast bullet. I too have good reason to want to be frugal!

The other day, I test fired a cast bullet (heavy one this time) and it did not even hit the target at 25m. Tomorrow I hope to test my new pistol bullet loads.

Just one question - is it good to fire jacketed bullets after shooting one or two lead bullets through the bore?

I was at the range the 14th.Ive been working with my 308.The loads I am working on r 180gr Nos Ballistic Tips & R-15 and the lead 170gr Lyman flat point gas check using SR-4759.With 21 grains of SR4759 the POI was level with and 1" to the right of the Nosler 180 group at 100yds.The velocity is avg 1960fps.I got the load information from(One Book/One Caliber)a book of books from Loadbooks USA,Inc.The 4 shot group had 3 touching in a nice cloverleaf group.(I need to figure out how to load pictures here so I could show the target)It was louder than I really want but I sure like how accurate it is.I had tried a really slow powder(Alliants; R-22).It left many unburnt grains in the bore.I got one of those books for my brother and his 30-06.I could look up a few loads if u like to view them.The lightest lead bullets in my book is Lyman's 113gr and RCBS's 115gr.Powders listed r IMR4198&4227-SR4759-&Unique.The heavier bullets have 8 powders to choose from.

You got to have the same velocity with both bullets of the same weight and a very good barrel.

When Shootaway answers, I no longer understand the question.

shootaway;no u don't.