Not many years ago the Large L.A. Gun show at the Pamona LA county fair grounds was spectacular.Everything from soup to nuts in the arms world. I never was able to see everything in one day it was that extensive. Well with all the laws and restrictions California has introduced the county politisions threw in with their state brothers and refused to let the gun show be held at the county fair grounds. There is a gun show in orange county but it is like what everyone herein is discribing. I did find a nice tea set there though. roger

Swede44Mag: I attend a lot of Gunshows and tour virtually every Gunshop, sporting goods store and pawn shop that I travel past - and I travel a lot!
I long ago lost track of the number of live rounds that I have witnessed being "accidentally discharged" in these venues! I am guessing 15 to 18!
Thankfully those witnessed AD's (accidental discharges) only resulted in a few minor injuries (and the resulting mandatory lawyer induced long lived shit storms!).
I have had a number of friends and co-workers grievously wounded by AD's! One of my closest friends and Gun Collecting mentors lost the use of his right hand - let me repeat HIS RIGHT HAND, due to human error mixing with firearms! His life was significantly diminished from that instant on! I could go on and on but won't at this time (and I should not have to)!
I could care less who wants to interject paranoia and contrariness and I am better than you-ness into this important discussion! Peoples egos and paranoia are no where near even being on the same page of importance as Gun safety! And if someone wishes to interject devils advocacy as an excuse for saying something fucking stupid then that does not exempt that person from being righteously branded as fucking stupid!
My advice - don't say stupid fucking things and don't insult others efforts to make Gunshows as safe as possible! Therefore allowing them (Gunshows) to continue to exist in todays real world!
I resent anyone who would stir the pot regarding constitutionally ratified regulations and policies designed to keep people from being injured or killed - and again, keeping Gunshows going!
Directly to hell with those shit stirrers! That stirring is imbecilic and irrational.
Again I implore anyone to come up with a rational reason to carry concealed, at a Gunshow, in a cement ricochet prone building! This reason needs to be more pressing and important than safety of human beings!
Save whats left of your paranoid brain cells from over stimulation oh paranoid brethren - as a rational argument or reason is not to be found!
I again publicly state I could not disagree more strongly with and I resent those irrational and paranoid types that for any reason endorse anyone (or everyone!) be allowed to carry a loaded firearm into a Gunshow!
That ludicrous argument is simply arguing for trouble and tragedy!
Long live Gunshows!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Seems Gun shows back east are the same thing that they are here in Oregon.

That is why someone told me they are called Gun SHOWS.

Showing is about all anyone does! Nothing worth buying!

sad but true.

seafire

Redhawk: Is there something wrong with "fearing an incident" and taking steps to prevent that feared incident? Fear of certain things (incidents!) is what keeps some humans alive and maybe some others, without rational fear, attain dead status! More to say about "dead" later - naw its so important I can't wait!
Death is final!
There is no undoing death!
I found out that even pro-gun Gunshow attendees will succumb to the evil doings of lawyers once a gun shot wound has been inflicted at your local friendly Gunshow!
And, being hypocritical has nothing to do with literally thousands of people remaining safe while trading, buying looking at, testing the triggers of, figuring out how things work on new fangled arms and generally just "fooling" around with guns!
There is NO place what so ever at a Gunshow for a loaded gun! Period!
Ignorance, arrogance and machismo have nothing to do with conducting a safe Gunshow - CCW laws or none in effect at all - safety first! Safety at all costs!. Even at risk to certain type peoples "delicate" egos, safety comes before politics or pride! To put on a safe Gunshow for the long term mandates that even the real macho, commando, paranoid types (are you included in any of these categories so far?) or even the most steadfast supporter of the Second Amendment unload their "gats" out in the car in the parking lot before entering the Gunshow!
Do you think you are going to be robbed inside a Gunshow or some behemoth of an ex-con biker is gonna try and make you his "bitch" in the rest room of a Gunshow? I would like to know what lame excuse you might conjure up in this regard! Let me warn you I have swatted them all out of the ballpark long ago and with gusto! So be real careful in your search for some semblence of a rational need to carry your "piece" loaded inside a Gunshow!
I have attended a couple thousand Gunshows and never heard of a felony being perpitrated on a Gunshow attendees person whilst at the Gunshow!
I have been startled though many times by gunshots inside several buildings holding Gunshows!
The startling part is these gunshots are just a noisey reminder that we are all human and we may make a human error while doing something human like showing our new friend our new "piece" then whamo! Off goes little Mikeys not yet fully developed testicles! Little Mikeys never gonna be a daddy! Lawyers for hundreds of miles around that imaginary incident would GLADLY cut off one of their own balls in order to cash in on the untold millions that little incident would redistribute! Are you naive enough to think that ANY Gunshows insurance policy would (or could) cover that lawsuit? Let me answer the question for you. No! That Gunshow is over and the proprieter is in for years of un-Godly lawyer bills and legal torture BEFORE complete financial ruin!
Again - I have, dealt with these type issues!
Please suck up your fears, your machismo, your concerns with hypocrisy or whatever and get back down here with the rest of us in todays real world, reality, so to speak!
Unload your friggin pistol in your car. I think you will be safe for a few hours (during the day!) at your chosen Gunshow!
Again the reality based concerns are not based on several thousand Gunshow attendees maturity or lack there of - it is based on those attendees being human and eventually something bad might/will happen especially with that many chances for humans to .. well, be human in a relatively confined space!
Humans make mistakes! And about one mistake is all most "promoters" could endure or suffer through!
Your stand is irrational, ignorant and probably irrelevent also - in that all the shows I have attended for some time now EXCLUDE (thankfully!) loaded guns in their buildings except by on duty, in uniform, law enforcement and/or Gunshow employed uniformed security people!
I will not take the time to relay to you all the amazing array of tragic incidents I investigated involving accidental discharges of firearms during my 29 year law enforcement career. I will outline though for you and relay this about them as being just that, an amazing array of human error, carelessness and mistakes! But the ones that ended life all had this in common!
The dead person NEVER comes back to life!
Let me repeat for you as I question both your intelligence and your decision making ability - give up your irrational stance regarding Gunshow concealed carry of loaded guns! Its just not worth the risk! The Gunshow will surely end right along with the victims life if God forbid a human mistake were to occur resulting in loss of life or serious injury!
The dead person NEVER comes back to life!
And the Gunshow at that venue wouldn't either!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG said:

Again I implore anyone to come up with a rational reason to carry concealed, at a Gunshow, in a cement ricochet prone building! This reason needs to be more pressing and important than safety of human beings!


And while we are at it, I'd like to implore anyone to come up with a rational reason to carry concealed in any place where there is a gathering of people and ricochet prone surfaces. This reason needs to be more pressing and important than safety of human beings!

Paul Barnard

AC:

What you say makes a lot of sense. I suspect that Redhawk will have a better understanding of why gun show management takes their stance on concealed carry now.

I hope for liability's sake your security force is very well trained on use of force in such a crowded public venue as a gun show. A single miss (studies show that well trained officers miss more than they hit in real-life shootings) or overpenetration will almost certainly kill or injure an innocent bystander. I hope they have held extensive pre-event briefings and discussed fundamental principals of law enforcement such as contact and cover, fields of fire, triangulation etc. To put an armed security force in place and not have a detailed set of marching orders and an accompanying brief would be derelict in my eyes and would surely subject the organizers to that dreaded civil liability. I know anytime I am employed in an event security situation (whether it be a presidential protection detail, a boater's rendevous or a Mardi Gras parade) my team holds planning meetings to mitigate the risk of friendly fire casualties.

Sorry I strayed. I was genuine in my expression of gratitude for your thoughtful response. It certainly helped me understand things from your perspective.

I absolutely understand the difference in public/private property concealed carry situations and private vs governmental infringements. My contention is that the same rationale used by private parties, companies and organizations to justify prohibitions on concealed carry is the same rationale antis make in trying to get our government to keep you and I from carrying concealed in public places. Does that not ring true?

Paul Barnard

I appreciate the courtesy of a response, albeit replete with unneccesary personal insults. I hope you had a great time with your hunts.



Had you cared to read my previous posts in detail, it would have been evident to you that I do not have a problem going to gun shows unarmed. I stated it twice. I also stated that I was playing devil's advocate. I did so for the sake of garnering a better understanding of why you were so passionate about not carrying at gun shows that you would resort to personal attacks against someone who has an opinion that differs from yours.



I appreciate your contributions to the NRA as well as your LE service. I too have made LE a career choice. In my case it has taught me to be calm, patient, and tolerant in the face of non-violent confrontations and differences of opinion. I am certainly not thin skinned enough to let the rant of someone enshrouded in the veil of internet annonymity prod me into a childish retort.



I'll accept the collective failure of the forum readership to respond to my directed questions, about where we draw the line on where we can or should carry, as evidence that it is indeed difficult making a clear distinction between certain carry and no carry situations.



And remember I have no problem attending gun shows unarmed. I take comfort in knowing the hungover security guard with Uncle Rays Security has my back covered with his 1961 model Rossi 38 special in the unlikely event something goes down.



Paul Barnard

The two shows iv been to in atlanta were very good. There were no beenie babies but there was alot of tactical stuff. I ended up getting a browning a-bolt medallion with a mcmillon stock for 400 bucks. When i went to shoot it in, it was stringing bullets horizontally as the barrel would get warm. A little sand paper to free float it and it's now shooting under moa at 100. I think i got a preety good deal. I did see to many of those crap rem. 710's though. They really need to just discontinue that rifle.
Nick

VarmintGuy,

Dammit Dale, why didn't you hold that XP-100 for me!

I agree with you 100% on not allowing loaded guns at the show. Its just common sense.

I wish I had the time to go to tbat many shows to find the great bargains. I look forward to retiring from the daily grind and doing more enjoyable activities.

I think you told me on the phone you never attended the show in Billings? If that's not the case, I was wondering what you thought of it. Its run by Brian Kjensmo.

Regards,
Kory

VG, if we follow your reasoning to its logical conclusion, it means the ban of all concealed carry and all firearms. Safety of human beings, indeed...by their nature firearms are potentially unsafe, and those unable to handle the responsibility should be dealt with accordingly.

Why is a gunshow so different than the grocery store, or home improvement store, or the city park, or anywhere else with buildings and congregations of people?

People walking to and from cars in parking lots are commonly victims of criminal activity. If I have to leave it in the car, I lose my protection...and I have never been to a show with lockboxes or a 'leave your carry gun/ammo here' at the door.

The issue here is where to draw the line at allowing concealed carry. Your opinion on this is clear. I wonder though, what is your opinion on concealed carry in general?

Paul Barnard: You are AGAIN showing your lack of intelligence (stupidity!) in that comparing ANY other venue where humans gather to a Gunshow! In anticipation of your lack of intelligence being an impenetrable barrier to rationality I will reluctantly (but with resolve!) try another time to explain the dangers you so flippantly deny!

Visualize (if you can?) a large gathering of gun types - all intent on searching out a new firearm for their own collection or for something fun to shoot or something to buy and re-sell and make a buck on! Virtually everyone there at the venue they enjoy (Gunshows) wants to check out any and all Guns they might find interesting! Then visualize people packing their own Guns into said venue for the purpose of selling them, trading them or bragging about them! Some of those guns have been to the range earlier in the week - some have been under the mattress (loaded!) for home protection - some have been in and out of the owners direct control for varying amounts of time etc etc etc! Then add in an indeterminate number of concealed carry afficianados and (under your ridiculous scenario's - the more carrying concealed the better!) I will not let you sweep (as you irrationally try to do!) aside the "human" error factor (including forgetfulness and unfamiliarity) and in this equation you so irrationally endorse, propose and espouse, you simply have accidents waiting to happen. And under your imbecilic perception of reality YOU would not have long to wait!

Your pathetic, sensationalistic and irresponsible stance is in fact much more (thousands of times more!) dangerous to human life than the emphatically needed policy where in even the egoists and paranoics (like you perhaps) are asked to not carry concealed loaded weapons at Gunshows. Seems a small thing to ask for removing any possibility of a tragic accident being inflicted on a human and the best way to guarantee the safe continuation of our Gunshows.

Again I am just thrilled that you have nothing to do with the decision making process's that keep me, my family, friends and Gunshows safe!

There has been some complaint I see about prices to attend ones chosen Gunshow! Let me advise said complainers it would be impossible to pay the premiums for insurance at any Gunshow that allowed all the attendees to carry loaded armament! Then you would not have to worry about high gate prices! There would be NO GUNSHOS! If you understand reality in any way shape or form you should concede that, that reason alone is MORE than enough in itself, to stifle your ridiculous, irrational contentions!

Again I implore you to seek medical treatment! Anyone that espouse's for his own suffering ego's sake that he needs to have his guns loaded at a Gunshow is being troubled by things that can't be cured via the internet! You do not have to announce in public that you are seeking professional help to try and control your irrationality and poor decision making abilities - just do it for your own sake AND the safety of others.

After dealing (on a daily basis) with irrationals like yourself for 29 years, many things come to mind - small man syndrome, badge happy, anally retentive, manic, compulsive, eating disorder, interaction of prescription meds - man what ever your problem is I hope you seek help immediately.

As I see it your rush to compromise safety is simply the result of some perceived insult to your ego! Somehow in your distorted view of reality your ego is more important than the safety of your neighbor! Something is desperately wrong with your thought process and decision making.

Further advice to you is this - don't go to places (like Gunshows) where your fears overwhelm you reasoning. Everyone would be better off that way. Your frazzled mental state may have a chance to calm down even?

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy

PS: Paranoid Paul - we are all still waiting for your empirical reasoning for why YOU need to carry a loaded Gun into a Gunshow!

Your ignoring reality and real important questions does not make them go away! They like the need for safety are still there whether you wish to acknowledge them or not!

Come on PP whats your reasoning?

Afraid to answer a direct question or acknowledge that YOU can't answer it!

Another symptom of your mental troubles perhaps?

Perhaps you are afraid to answer reality based questions?

Anyway we are all still waiting and I predict it will be a long wait whether you care to acknowledge your impossible task or not!

CDH: I am licensed to carry concealed in every United State. I am also licensed to be armed and conduct private investigations in some western states. In addition I am licensed and bonded in some western states to provide armed personal security (do bodyguard work and robbery suppresion).
I have been a tireless fighter for Second Amendment Rights all my adult life! I was once threatened with suspension from my job for soliciting memberships to the NRA before my shift started! I was soliciting other LE types not yet on duty by the way. I sold 12 memberships that week and still have the NRA belt buckle I earned by selling those memberships!
Does that answer your question directly enough? Let me add this then - I have written letters to large circulation "newspapers" espousing the lawfulactions of and lack of acknowledgement by said papers of the virtues and witnessed good deeds done by CCW types. I have toiled in the rain canvassing and doing grunt work for pro-Second Amendment candidates countless times. I am an Endowment member of the NRA! I send money to pro-Second Amendment candidates for public offices. I could go on and on and may choose to do so later.
So... having answered your direct question with specificity - let me ask you, directly, to clarify your stance (precisely with a yes or no answers please - then add any comments you wish to).
Do YOU want all Gunshow attendees to be able to carry loaded weapons into said Gunshows?
Yes or No?
Do YOU think Gunshows would be safer with lets say.. oh about 189 loaded Guns in them at all times?
Yes or No?
Are YOU afraid of some tatooed ex-con biker making you his boy bitch in the restroom of your local Gunshow?
Yes or No?
I would like to have you clarify YOUR stance before I take you to the reality woodshed and open a can or reality based whup ass on you also (if need be?)!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy