I have had a win 94 30-30 for a bit, and finally decided to start reloading for it. Got some Lee equipment, which except the scale I am very happy with.

So I checked the recommended load for .30-30 using Trailboss 6.5 to 9 grains! Using a 165 grain cast projectile.

I loaded up 20 rounds with 7.2 grains I was anticipating ~1000 fps, got only ~850! I don't care about the speed, I wanted light plinking loads for fun, but this was terrible, i must have set a record for the most inaccurate load at the range! The group, if you could call it that was about 2 foot, and all the bullets where tumbling, a couple even hit the target side on!

I assume, this must be due to the bullet achieving insufficient velocity/pressure to stabilize? Any other suggestions?

The barrel was clean! The bullet jump was about .020" and the OAL was 2.524".

I think I am going to try 8.7 grains and if its no better use 4198 (granted for 1500fps) instead!

I have never used Trailboss in a 30-30, but I found a load using it in a 30-06 reduced load. At 50 yards, I shot into one ragged hole. I used 15 grs Trailboss, Fed 215M primer, and a 170 gr RN Corelokt bullet in RWS brass.

I've been using TB in a 30-30 for my son. I've been loading 125gr Sierra HP's though, and while I've not shot it through the chronograph, the recoil has been minimal and the accuracy has been very good.

My load has been ~10.5 grains, which I have started measuring simply by using the 2.2cc Lee dipper... fill it up and dump it in.

I arrived at this load by using the generic method given on the Hodgdon website. You may be able to go a bit higher than 7.2 or even 9grs depending on how long your bullet is.

If you haven't already, take a look at this link and and see what kind of potential you may have.

Trail Boss Loads for any Cartridge

I suspect that, unless I am wrong, your LEE DIES are equipped with an neck-expander plug for JACKETED 30-30 BULLETS of .308" diameter.

Whereas your cast bullets ought to be .309" to 310" diameter. So what happens is when you seat you bullets they are being sized down!

Get a proper RCBS CAST BULLET NECK EXPANDER PLUG AND DIE and all should be OK.

A couple of questions as a newbie to reloading.

1) The MAX OAL for aq 30-30 is stated as being 2.550", I have been advised to seat the bullet so it touches the rifling, which would be an OAL of is this okay so long a it feeds from the magazine and will only be used in that rifle?

2) Hodgdon list a max load of 9 grains for a 160 grain cast bullet, I am using a 165 grain bullet. I have made up some 8 and some 9 grain loads to try out. I have again been advised that a 10.5 grain load work well for accurate shooting! Is a 10.5 grain load safe. This is what Hodgdon state on there website

"Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at
this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your
maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!"

But that is 11 grains not 9! I am confused is it safe or not. Extrapolation of pressure leads me to believe a 10.5 grain load would be around 35,000 CUP and the 30-30 is good for ~38,000. However I know that pressure curves are not straight lines and pressure might increase exponentially at a certain point. I am confused!

Would I be better just to use unique if the 9 grains of Trailboss does not work? If so might have to try and sell the 5 lbs I have got!

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
I suspect that, unless I am wrong, your LEE DIES are equipped with an neck-expander plug for JACKETED 30-30 BULLETS of .308" diameter.

Whereas your cast bullets ought to be .309" to 310" diameter. So what happens is when you seat you bullets they are being sized down!

Get a proper RCBS CAST BULLET NECK EXPANDER PLUG AND DIE and all should be OK.

I am currently using an FL lee die and then flaring the mouth with a Lyman M die, but granted that is only opening the first 1/8".

quote:

Originally posted by andym79:
A couple of questions as a newbie to reloading.

1) The MAX OAL for aq 30-30 is stated as being 2.550", I have been advised to seat the bullet so it touches the rifling, which would be an OAL of is this okay so long a it feeds from the magazine and will only be used in that rifle?

2) Hodgdon list a max load of 9 grains for a 160 grain cast bullet, I am using a 165 grain bullet. I have made up some 8 and some 9 grain loads to try out. I have again been advised that a 10.5 grain load work well for accurate shooting! Is a 10.5 grain load safe. This is what Hodgdon state on there website

"Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at
this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your
maximum load. Pressures will be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!"

But that is 11 grains not 9! I am confused is it safe or not. Extrapolation of pressure leads me to believe a 10.5 grain load would be around 35,000 CUP and the 30-30 is good for ~38,000. However I know that pressure curves are not straight lines and pressure might increase exponentially at a certain point. I am confused!

Would I be better just to use unique if the 9 grains of Trailboss does not work? If so might have to try and sell the 5 lbs I have got!

Andy- my thoughts:

1) As long as your loads feed and function in your rifle, the OAL can be longer than book value. Keep in mind different bullets even of the same weight will have different lengths and cannelure locations, so measuring the OAL from case head to bullet tip is not always an apples-to-apples exercise. Also, seating a bullet out far enough to engage the rifling may not always be the best practice. It is often a bench-rest loading technique to help achieve uniform starting pressures in a very controlled shooting environment. Often the best load in a hunting rifle comes with the bullet seated just off the lands as you have done already, and varies from rifle to rifle. Seating just off the lands is also a bit safer in that it allows some amount of bullet travel before engagement which can help compensate for high pressure variations ("freebore" helps to moderate chamber pressure variations). For a lever action rifle and a new reloader, your best bet is to seat the bullet to the cannelure. If no cannelure, the book OAL is the best starting point.

2) Hodgdon's load for the cast bullet is a lower velocity load compared to a jacketed bullet. Lead bullets, high velocity and high pressures don't work well together. But then Trailboss was intended for use with lead bullets. I would stop at the published max load of 9grs and see how it shoots. If the velocities are still very low, accuracy still stinks, and you are not seeing any pressure signs, you could continue to work up until to you reach the limit found using Hodgdon's published mark/fill/measure method assuming you don't see any pressure signs first.

Getting cast lead to shoot accurately can be tricky as Enfieldspares indicated. Typically a cast bullet will be ~.002-.003 larger than your barrel's groove diameter. Less than that and they won't effectively engage the rifling as they travel down the bore. Too low a pressure and they won't obdurate effectively engage the rifling. Too high a pressure and they'll yield and won't effectively engage the rifling but load the bore with lead. But when you get everything just right, cast lead can be extremely accurate.

I would think you should be able to find a good load using Trailboss, but maybe not with that bullet depending on its diameter. Make sure you have a clean barrel with no lead fouling in the grooves. Measure your bullet diameter and if possible slug your bore. Make sure your bullets are ~.002 larger than groove diameter, then start working up.

If that's too much hassle, get some 125gr Sierra jacketed bullets... I can vouch for that load personally.

quote:

If that's too much hassle, get some 125gr Sierra jacketed bullets... I can vouch for that load personally.

Thanks for your reply. I do want to stick with cast as I will be doing a lot of target shooting and the nice Sierra 125grns cost about 3 1/2 times more. The bullets I am using are between .309 and .310. I am sure that the tumbling is due to a simple lack of velocity, the recoil felt about the same as a .22mag. I have load some more rounds up 8, 8.8 and 9.2grs, but I won't be able to try them till Saturday. If I don't succeed with trailboss I am going to try 4198 and 4227 first!

I'd register at castboolits.com and ask over there. There are probably 1,000 guys over there that have been through the exact same thing and can help.

Andy don't overlook 2400 with those cast bullets.

Before Trail Boss, Unique was a good powder for that type of service and is also very accurate in my experience, even moreso than Trail Boss..

Well I had another go with TB today! I loaded up some 8.2gns and some 9.2gns loads! There was no sign of tumbling at 50 yards at 8.2gns, and I got a couple of 1 1/2" groups at 50 using 9.2gns. So not excellent by any means I wanted to get 5/8 - 3/4" groups at 50 off a bench! But at least know I see hope for TB. One of the guys there was using 10.5gns with the same projectile and getting tight groups at 50 yards, it was blowing out to 4" at a 100 yards though. I don't like groups bigger than 2" at that range!

So I am going to try some more 9.2gn loads and 10gn loads next weekend. I will also try some 4198 loads I think 16gns!

Thanks for the input guys!