Howdy,

I am considering an order for some surplus military powder for use in reloading cartridges for several guns that I shoot to include 22 Hornet, 7mm TCU, 7-30 Waters, & 35 Remington in TC Contender pistol (10" & 14" bbls.), and 243 and 270 Winchester in rifles. The powders I am presently considering are WC852, CMR100, WC846, & WC820.

Never having used surplus powders before, I want to make sure that I am not exposing myself to increased risk. I would appreciate comments (good and bad) from those who have used any of these powders, particularly in the listed cartridges. Are there any consistency problems with the pulldown powder? Are ther other issues I need to be aware of?

Thanks for your input!

Dave

Davit,

"I want to make sure that I am not exposing myself to increased risk. "

Ain't gonna happen! If you use surplus powder, most especially pull-down, you are using a powder with an unknown burn rate. Per definition, you are taking therefore additional risk. How much depends on your approach to the whole thing.

Can it be done safely? Surely. But not quite as safely as working with canister powders. JMO, Dutch.

I use the surplus powers. CMR100, WC846 and WC820. I have used both the new and the PD. My experience with the WC846 PD is that it was a hair slow. But tell you it shot very well in my .223 with groups as good as .274. I have used a little of the CMR100 in my .243, 6MM and .308 it burns a little faster than 4895. Once again it shot some very respectable groups. I had a little less velocity than 4895 but I was not pushing the load. The WC820 the H110 look alike I'm just starting to work up some loads with. My feeling is unless you are one of those guys that goes to his loading manual and starts out at the Max load you won't have any problem. So far I'm very happy with the results and the price is right. Just take your time and use correct loading procedures.

I have used WC872, WC 852(slow), WC 820, and H5010. I didn't like the batch of WC 872 I bought about ten years ago. It didn't seem to be as slow as the H870 it was supposed to be like, and the speed varied too much depending on what size cartridge it was in.

The H5010 has proved to be marvelous stuff, achieving factory ballistics in .338-.378 (111gr. with 250 gr. bullet for 3050 fps), working well in .300 Win. Mag with 220 gr. HPBTs, and moderately thumping to 2075 fps with a 700gr. bullet in .510-.505 Gibbs as a slightly compressed load. Seems to be a great reduced load big-bore cartridge powder. Doesn't meter well because it is really big sticks. I like it all the more because of that.

The WC820 has been reported to actually be AA #9, and therefore somewhat faster than H110, so I reduced my 200gr. .44Mag load down from 23 gr. to 21.5 gr. I think the 23 gr. load went a somewhat slow 1450fps. Flame everywhere at dusk with the 23 grain load, particularly out the cylinder gap. Invisible in daylight. Great show!

The WC852 (slow) is supposed to emulate IMR 4831, and 37.5 grains with an 80 grain HPBT in .22-250 matches the pressure-tested maximum velocity (was it 3050 or 3100?) in the Guns and Ammo Reloads article). I have just begun using it in .510-.505 Gibbs with the 700gr. bullet and foam filler, and the behavior seems to be without notable fault, though as yet there is not enough experience to suggest that there is exceptional merit to the performance in this application.

Go to Jeff Bartletts' site at GIBrass.com. He has a run down on loading data for the milsurp powders. I use alot of it personally, and have never had any more problems than some unburned powder left in the barrel, and occasionally the chamber. I get real good accuracy with the WC860 and WC872 in many of my rifle cartridges. I did find today it is impossible to stuff enough of either in a .308 to make a HK G3 function reliably every shot! Something a bit faster will be required, and yep, it will be milsurp. I'd went ahead and loaded 200 for a weekend shoot with 4064, and the cost made me cringe. Over a pound of powder, approximate cost $15. For a bit more, I could have bought another eight pound jug of Milsurp Purina Rifle Chow.

I've used WC846 in .223 and 30-30 Win. I like the powder, and it saves money for the avid reloader.

For lack of better words, If your not a dumbass, you will not be at increased risk. Probably your risk will be higher driving to the shooting range than using milsurp powders.

I use AL-8, 5010-PD, WC-852(slow lot), WC-680, WC-860, SR-4759, WC-820, and WC-844. I have used them in ALMOST every caliber/and some shotguns, that I reload for. Never had a problem. I start at or a bit less than recommended powder/burning rate and work from that point. On several occasions, the starting load was the best. As long as this surplus stuff is available at the prices offered, I may never shoot canister powders again!!! (Well almost never again!!) Good-luck…BCB

I have been using these surplus and PD powders for about three decades now and I really like some of them, not to mention the economy involved. Some of the numbers I have used over the years have been from the now-gone Nobel Factory [NRP-103,104, HP 44,45,47,48,49] Others have been sphericals which meter so well and have burning rates that parallel some of the extruded numbers very closely [i.e. IMR 4350] These include WC755, WC845, WC852(slow), WC867, WC760 [slow lot #10], WC760 [slow lot #131]. Expro extruded powders CF8506, CF7900. There are probably others I have used but that have been forgotten by now. When I find a number I really like, I try to lay in enough so that I can load for awhile without working up for a new lot#. The WC 760 [SL10] that I mentioned is about a grain slower than 4350 and looks like H380, thus is a gem to measure. I must have burned 40lbs of it over the last 15 years. As has been mentioned, if you use proper and careful load development, you should run into no problems at all. Regards, Eagleye.

If you decide to shoot surplus, pull-down or virgin, buy in quantities that will last you for a good while. The surplus powders can vary considerably in burn rates. I was given a small quantity, from a reliable source, of WC860. Worked up a load that gave 2775 fps. Bought more. 2nd lot of WC860 gave almost identical results. Bought more. 3rd lot of WC860 was slower. Same charge weight barely gave 2500 fps with everything else the same except powder lots.
Nothing wrong with surplus powders at all. Just work up each time you switch powder lots.

Did you ever hear of "buying a pig in a poke"?

Thank you all for the input! Before I place my order however, I am wondering how long a shelf life I can expect before there is a noticable deterioration of the powder? Also, Jeff Bartlett's site (gibrass.com) seems to be the preferred source. Do any of you know of any alternate dealer who have a website?

Thanks Again for your input!

Regards, Dave

Might try http://patsreloading.com/patsrel/contact.htm

I bought some powder from him the past couple of months ago at Camp Perry. Good-luck...BCB

Dan; I have picked up a few of the numbers in the U.S. when I have made a trip across the border. But most of the surplus powders I have bought from Ammomart in Hawkesbury. I started dealing with Thomas Higginson back about 1961, when his company was known as Xelex Explosives. Many of the numbers are no longer available from that source, such as WC755, WC760[slow lot #131], CF8506, CF7900 and several of the Nobel offerings. However, several are available still. The WC760 [slow lot #10] is marketed as AMS47SB at Ammomart. The Old Nobel #104 is still marketed as 47N. WC845, WC852 and surplus H335 Andrew has in stock at attractive prices. I think old Thomas was better at finding and importing the surplus numbers than is his Nephew, though. Time will tell. Hope this helps, Regards, Eagleye.

Davit_M,

The storage is the same as any smokeless powder, that being store it in a cool dry environment and it will last for many years.

You may also want to give Hi-Tech a look as they also sell Mil. Surp. powders.

http://www.hi-techammo.com/

Thanks Eagle Eye. I'm finding the same thing, and the nephew tells me he won't be bringing in anything slower then what he has (he has one equivelant to H450, one to 4350 and one to a slow W760) because of the cost of testing and certifying. How much powder can I bring across the border at one time, any idea? - Dan

. . . Before I place my order however, I am wondering how long a shelf life I can expect before there is a noticable deterioration of the powder? . . .
Regards, Dave

Dave

I am still shooting some 4831 from a barrel we bought on the surplus market in 1969.
Store in decent container under decent conditions and I think most powder will outlast us!
You may want to look at the site below also. I have bought from both them and Bartlett and have been VERY happy with both!
LouisB
Just an opinion of course
HITECH

I have bought and shot alot of 4895,846 and WC844 in everything from a 30/06 to 17Rem. Tried the WC852 and couldn't get it to shoot in anything, others are just fine. I really like their(Hi Teck) 4895 and 844. Need to get more before it goes up or they run out. Pete

Dan; You can take 8 kilograms of powder across the border in a private vehicle at one time. That's about 18 lbs, of course. BTW, if you happen to be interested, Andrew still has a small quantity of original Norma 205. It was acquired by his uncle from the CIL [IVI] plant when it shut down. It is marketed as RP-5, but, I can assure you, it is the genuine item. I laid in a bit once the authenticity was verified. One of the all-time best powders in 7x57, 270, 30-06, 308 Norma and many others. About $22.00 lb Cdn.
All one lot number, so no problem redeveloping any loads when you open a new container. Regards, Eagleye.