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I started reloading to make what I thought would be more accurate ammunition. I have a Savage Model 10 chambered in .308 with just a middle of the road Simmons scope on it. I am loading Winchester Brass with Speer 150 gr BTSP's, using Fed 210M primers and 44,45 and 46 gr of Varget. At 100 yards I have not had even close to a 1 inch group 3 shot group with any of the loads. At first I thought it might be me, so I upgraded my bags and even had someone else shoot the gun, but that didn't help. I can almost shoot 1 inch groups with factory ammo out of a dang SKS or my K31 at 100 yards, so I don't think it is me.

In the Savage the first shot might be 2 inches from the bullseye at 2 o'clock, then shot two might be 2 inches from bullseye at 8 o'clock. They just seem to be all over the place. This was brand new brass that I am full length resizing. I am not an experienced reloader by any means, but the rounds I load for my 45-70 hold at about 1.5 inches at 100 yards with XS Ghost ring sights. What could I be doing wrong?


----
Towards danger; but not too rashly, nor too straight
 
Posts: 100 | Location: Tampa | Registered: 05 February 2005Reply With Quote
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SmilerWes get some IMR-4895 or IMR-4964 powder which are two great 30 caliber powders. Unless you have a really bad rifle it needs a different load. I have found that in a .308 the 150 grain bullet using these two powders are really great. Set back, take a big breath of air and start over. These rifles are like a woman. They all need the same thing, but some like some things more than others and when you find out what those things are, watch them preform! You'll get it just take it slow and easy. Look at each loading as a learning experience not a failure! Makes a big differance. When I started to reload my old 1940 7.7 Jap rifle I was told my a bunch that it would never load up accruate. I was begining to believe them after awhile but then I begin to make thoise litte changes that kept getting it better and better. Stay with the old .308!
 
Posts: 671 | Location: none | Registered: 14 February 2005Reply With Quote
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SmilerWes that was IMR-4064 not 4964! Oh this old mind!
 
Posts: 671 | Location: none | Registered: 14 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Hey Wes

Can you go through in detail exactly how you are setting your dies, measuring your powder, seating your bullets, etc.

We've all had to back track and rethink our reloading procedures, so maybe we can spot a mistake or a better way.

If you're not seeing any pressure signs keep stairstepping up to book max of 57 grains (Speer manual). Sometimes they shoot better at max load. The book max in the Nosler #5 is 58.5 grains for the 150 grain and Varget.

Twer me, I'd get some 168 grain Barnes Triple Shocks and try IMR4350 and start about 48 grains which is 2 grains below max and start stairstepping up. Never had much luck with the Speer BTSP's.

Are you having to seat the bullets deep in order to get them in the mag?

Last time I had bullets jumping around like that I found out I was pushing the shoulder back too far (long story).


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I don't think I have ever been able to get speer 150s shooting in any of my 308's. I get best results with bullistic tips and 165gr gamekings.
 
Posts: 459 | Location: Finksburg, MD | Registered: 20 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Wes, You've got one of the better powders for a 150gr., 4064 won't give you any better accuracy IMHO, I'd look at the scope if I were you, 150 C-Ls weren't even that bad when I shot them from my 308. And, Speer wouldn't even be my third choice for a bullet. Jay
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Here is the process I am using:

Spray lube my cases
Put the RCBS FL die in, screw it down till it touches the shell holder
Resize and decap the cases, wipe of the spray lube
Put each case on Lee Zip Trim
Trim it, deburr inside and outside of the mouth
Measure each charge on my RCBS 5-0-5 scale
Pour the charge into the case mouth with a funnel
I have my seating die set as high up as I can so it won't crimp or I hope it isn't crimping anyway, seating die is set so the overall case length is about 2.715 inches +/- .05 . All the Varget loads I am testing are compressed with this bullet though.
Put in my Lee Factory crimp die and put a medium crimp on all the cartridges.

That is basically how I have reloaded all rounds I load for.

Wes


----
Towards danger; but not too rashly, nor too straight
 
Posts: 100 | Location: Tampa | Registered: 05 February 2005Reply With Quote
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If you have only tried one bullet in one weight with only one powder,you are being unrealistic in expecting very accurate loads for your gun.Proper load develop consists of trying a few powders with more than one bullet so the gun can show you what combination that it likes.If you do further load development you will most likely achieve the results that you desire.
 
Posts: 3104 | Location: alberta,canada | Registered: 28 January 2002Reply With Quote
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maybe try just neck sizing instead of full length as one of the many things you can do to try and improve your loads.
 
Posts: 12 | Location: canada | Registered: 11 May 2005Reply With Quote
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Wes,

I would try all of the follwoing.

1. Go buy some 168 grn Sierra matchings
2. Take the time to weigh some cases and use cases that are only with 1% of each other
3. Measure your chamber for the matching and seat 5/1000 of the lands.

4. Change out your scope just in case...

5. Carefully load twenty rounds.

6. Clean it completely

7. fire a fouling shot

8. Fire three 3 shot groups

Report back


Mike

Legistine actu quod scripsi?

Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.




What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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You are apparently a better than average shot with iron sights and the rifle apparently performs as poorly for other shooters. Have you shot the rifle with any factory ammo? If it won't shoot either I suspect your Simmons is broken. Good hunting!
 
Posts: 299 | Registered: 11 January 2005Reply With Quote
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WesN
Buy a box of Federal 168 grain Match. If your rifle does not shoot good with that there is something wrong with the gun.


DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY
 
Posts: 16134 | Location: Texas | Registered: 06 April 2002Reply With Quote
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Wes

If you screw in the resizing die until it touchs the shell holder, then it is very possible that you are not Partial Full Length Resizing ( PFLR ). When the die starts to compress on the case walls (about 3/4 turn before it hits the shell holder) it squeezes the case walls and pushes the shoulder forward. It will then continue to resize the case and not touch the shoulder to push it back until about 1/4 turn past the point where it touches the shell holder.

The best way to determine this is to have your gun and chamber a shell after resizing at the point where it touches the shell holder. It should be harder to chamber because the shoulder has been pushed forward. Turn the die further in a very small amount at a time and continue to chamber the case. At the point where it starts to push the shoulder back (PFLR), the case will become easier to chamber.

You can only neck size by leaving the die set about 1 turn back so the die does not contact the case walls and push the shoulder forward.

How far out are you seating the bullets from the lands? Do you use a gauge to determine your seating depth?


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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Just a thought-The scope and try Imr-4895.
 
Posts: 200 | Location: Calgary- Alberta- Canada | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I think the "advanced" techniques like Partial Full Length Resizing and seating the bullet 5, 10, or 20 thousandths off the lands will not solve this problem. These methods can help a little when the load is already basically good, but you seem to be having a more fundamental problem.

As others have said...

1) You must try other combinations of bullets and powders.

2) There are other brands of bullets with better reputations for accuracy, such as Hornady and Sierra. Try them.

3) The scope is suspect. Use a different one if you have one. You could also try mounting the suspect scope on a different gun with equal or greater recoil and see how it performs there.

If you want to try getting the bullet closer to the lands, here's a "poor man's" method. Load a round (preferrably a dummy round) with the bullet seated way too long. Measure the overall length. Chamber it in your rifle. This should force it deeper into the case. Measure it again and compare to the first measurement to be sure the bullet has been pushed deeper. Load all your rounds at least .025" shorter. Don't try to get any closer to the lands with this method for two reasons. First, this method applies considerable force to the bullet, forcing it into the lands (i.e. beyond just touching) by an unknown about. Second, you are measuring off the tips of the bullets which are easily deformed and inconsistent.

Whatever measurement you come up with applies ONLY to that brand/model/weight of bullet!

There are tools you can buy to do this easier and more accurately, but that's another subject.

I recommend you try neck sizing. Some say Partial Full Length Resizing is better, but it's hard to get the die adjusted just right. Again, there are tools to help, but neck sizing is a lot easier. To me the only downside to neck sizing is that after several firings, the rounds become difficult to chamber (or extract) and you will have to full size anyway.

I'm a big fan of Lee Collet Neck Sizing dies. They require no lubrication and they tend to leave the necks straighter than conventional dies.

You should probably test some loads without the Lee Factory Crimp die. The instructions for mine say that Speer recommends against it, but I think that's just a marketing war between Lee and Speer (which is somehow related to RCBS, a Lee competitor). Lot's of folks swear by these dies, but there's always the chance you got a bad one that's doing something undesirable to your rounds.
 
Posts: 88 | Registered: 21 January 2005Reply With Quote
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You need to vary your powder charge a bit (no more than a half grain each step) to see where the sweet spot is. Every gun is a little bit different, and you've got to do a little load work-up to find the spot.

My guess is that your rifle barrel is contacting the stock, so you'll have to hunt to find that perfect resonance point where it will throw "one-hole" groups.


Well, at least have an OK day Smiler
 
Posts: 242 | Location: NW Oregon | Registered: 08 January 2004Reply With Quote
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You didn't say if the rifle is a shooter w/ factory ammo. You have to have a benchmark to go by. Fed. match ammo is one of the best. If the rifle won't shoot that, then start looking @ the scope if everything else is tight.


LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT!
 
Posts: 7752 | Location: kalif.,usa | Registered: 08 March 2001Reply With Quote
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Owning several Savages that I can't MAKE shoot poorly, I'd definitely consider switching the scope and/or mounts. May even buy a box or two of Hornady factory ammo and give it a try once you get the scope replaced. I've never had Hornady factory ammo shoot worse than 1" when all other factors are correct. With results that erratic, it almost has to be your scope or mounts.


Tim

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
George Orwell
 
Posts: 136 | Location: The People's Republic of Maryland--Hah! | Registered: 19 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Try re-torquing the action screws.
Good luck!
 
Posts: 1028 | Location: Mid Michigan | Registered: 08 January 2005Reply With Quote
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I'm with Jay and MB. It's your scope. Try it on another gun, or another scope on your gun to prove us right or wrong.




If yuro'e corseseyd and dsyelixc can you siltl raed oaky?

 
Posts: 9647 | Location: Yankeetown, FL | Registered: 31 August 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
My guess is that your rifle barrel is contacting the stock, so you'll have to hunt to find that perfect resonance point where it will throw "one-hole" groups.


You'll drive yourself nuts trying reloading solutions. This is a gun problem and glass bedding and free floating the barrel is the first thing that needs to be done.

If that don't improve things a lot then try a different (and proven) scope.


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Posts: 28849 | Location: western Nebraska | Registered: 27 May 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by hawkins:
Try re-torquing the action screws.
Good luck!


Was just about to say this, and forget about neck sizing only, just set your die so the case goes in sort of like a factory round would, take off the scope, shake it to see if it rattles, TRY another scope for sure, buy some 168MKs or 165Ballistic Tips, or 165 Hornady Interlocks, If it won't shoot with these bullets, it won't shoot, Varget will work with these bullets, RE15 may work a bit better.
Seat the bullets .010" off the lands, if you've got a long throat, just seat them at an OAL of 2.800". Your current bullet is seated too far in, IMHO, Sierra has an oal of 2.750" for their 150SBT, believe the Speer and Sierra are very similar.

I really think your problem is in your mounts, scope, or the action screws. BTW, What does your groups actually measure? Is it like 4-6"? Jay

P.S. OH, and throw that Lee factory crimp die in the junk pile, don't need a crimp on a 308Win. That could be your problem, right there.
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Dump the barrel - get a medium-heavy, first rate after market barrel (e.g., Krieger, Shillen, Hart). You'll be happy. Factory barrels usually SUCK on all makes of guns. A good barrel shoots about everything well.
 
Posts: 3720 | Registered: 03 March 2005Reply With Quote
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SmilerWes before you get your mind all jumbled up with a lot of info, let me explain why I suggested you try IMR-4895 or IMR-4064 powder. This isn't because I use these powders, which I do, but because IMR- 4895 is the old standby, "been there did that powder" for 30 caliber rifles. Dupont and the military developed it for thier 30 caliber rifles. What did the military want? An accrute shooting powder for thier 30 caliber rifles. What did they get? An accurate shooting powder for thier 30 caliber rifles. A
 
Posts: 671 | Location: none | Registered: 14 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Blob1:
SmilerWes before you get your mind all jumbled up with a lot of info, let me explain why I suggested you try IMR-4895 or IMR-4064 powder. This isn't because I use these powders, which I do, but because IMR- 4895 is the old standby, "been there did that powder" for 30 caliber rifles. Dupont and the military developed it for thier 30 caliber rifles. What did the military want? An accrute shooting powder for thier 30 caliber rifles. What did they get? An accurate shooting powder for thier 30 caliber rifles. A


Yes, Thats why they use RE15 for their sniper round, Jay
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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SmilerWes before you get your mind all jumbled up with a lot of info, let me explain why I suggested you try IMR-4895 or IMR-4064 powder. This isn't because I use these powders, which I do, but because IMR- 4895 is the old standby, "been there did that powder" for 30 caliber rifles. Dupont and the military developed it for thier 30 caliber rifles. What did the military want? An accrute shooting powder for thier 30 caliber rifles. What did they get? An accurate shooting powder for thier 30 caliber rifles. Are there other accrute powders for the 30 caliber-sure! But I have seen many a 30 caliber both 30/06 and 308 brought around by going back to the one they love. The best way I have seen this done is to seat the bullets at factory depth to start off and use IMR-4895 powder. Of course this means all mounts, scopes etc have been checked. IMR-4064 is almost the same as 4895 but abit faster burning. I shot a 30/06 Remington model 7400 using IMR-4064, 156 grain bullet an it averaged .375 groups. I realize that many things can come into play with what you are experienceing. Check all the mounts, try a good scope and try the old "been there done that powder-IMR-4895 or it's cousin IMR-4064.
 
Posts: 671 | Location: none | Registered: 14 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Actually, IMR4895 is a bit faster than IMR4064.


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Powder Burning Rate Chart

(Chart is Courtesy of Hodgdon Powder Company) These burning rates are relative and can differ from one cartridge to another and even from bullet weight in the same cartridge. They are not all the same type of powder (i.e. double-base or single-base) and should not be used as a loading guide. It is just to show you the comparison between types and brands to each other. Do not substitute one powder for another without checking the loading information for the powder you plan to use.


Burning Rate Chart (Courtesy of Hodgdon Powder Co.)

(Fastest to Slowest)
1. R-1 Norma
2. N310, Vihtavuori
3. Bullseye, Alliant
4. N312, Vihtavuori
5. Solo 1000, Accurate
6. Clays, Hodgdon
7. Red Dot, Alliant
8. N318, Vihtavuori
9. Hi-Skor 700X, IMR
10. N320, Vihtavuori
11. Green Dot, Alliant
12. International, Hodgdon
13. No. 2, Accurate
14. N321, Vihtavuori
15. N324, Vihtavuori
16. HP-38, Hodgdon
17. W-231, Winchester
18. N325, Vihtavuori
19. N330, Vihtavuori
20. PB, IMR
21. N331, Vihtavuori
22. No. 5, Accurate
23. Unique, Alliant
24. WSL, Winchester
25. Power Pistol, Alliant
26. Universal, Hodgdon
27. SR-7625, IMR
28. W-473AA, Winchester
29. Herco, Alliant
30. N340, Vihtavuori
31. WSF, Winchester
32. HS-6, Hodgdon
33. W-540, Winchester
34. 3N37, Vihtavuori
35. WAP, Winchester
36. Hi-Skor 800-X, IMR
37. N350, Vihtavuori
38. HS-7, Hodgdon
39. W-571, Winchester
40. No. 7, Accurate
41. Blue Dot, Alliant
42. No. 9, Accurate
43. 2400, Alliant
44. N110, Vihtavuori
45. R-123, Norma
46. H-110, Hodgdon
47. W-296, Winchester
48. SR-4759, IMR
49. N120, Vihtavuori
50. XMP-5744, Accurate
51. IMR-4227, IMR
52. N125, Vihtavuori
53. H-4227, Hodgdon
54. N130, Vihtavuori
55. AAC-1680, Accurate
56. W-680, Winchester
57. N132, Vihtavuori
58. N-200, Norma
59. N133, Vihtavuori
60. IMR-4198, IMR
61. H-4198, Hodgdon
62. XMR-2015, Accurate
63. Reloader 7, Alliant
64. N134, Vihtavuori
65. IMR-3031, IMR
66. Benchmark 1, Hodgdon
67. N-201, Norma
68. H-322, Hodgdon
69. Benchmark 2, Hodgdon
70. AAC-2230, Accurate
71. IMR-4895, IMR
72. H-4895, Hodgdon
73. H-335, Hodgdon
74. BL-C(2), Hodgdon
75. AAC-2460, Accurate
76. W-748, Winchester
77. Reloader 12, Alliant
78. N135, Vihtavuori
79. IMR-4064, IMR
80. Varget, Hodgdon
81. AAC-2520, Accurate
82. N-202, Norma
83. XMR-4064, Accurate
84. IMR-4320, IMR
85. N140, Vihtavuori
86. AAC-2700, Accurate
87. Reloader 15, Alliant
88. H-380, Hodgdon
89. N150, Vihtavuori
90. W-760, Winchester
91. H-414, Hodgdon
92. N160, Vihtavuori
93. IMR-4350, IMR
94. H-4350, Hodgdon
95. N-204, Norma
96. Reloader 19, Alliant
97. IMR-4831, IMR
98. XMR-3100, Accurate
99. H-450, Hodgdon
100. H-4831, Hodgdon
101. MRP, Norma
102. N165, Vihtavuori
103. Reloader 22, Alliant
104. IMR-7828, IMR
105. H-1000, Hodgdon
106. XMR-8700, Accurate
107. H-870, Hodgdon
(slowest burn rate)

Return to previous Page



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This page created 3/12/97 by M.D. Smith and last modified on August 1, 1997 ©
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Put in my Lee Factory crimp die and put a medium crimp on all the cartridges
Why are you doing that,I dont crimp.Scope?Adjust your F/l sizer to back off the shoulder at minimun,first adjust the die making contact with the shell holder,back up the die 1/4 turn, then carefully screw it down by 1/16 turn at the time until you find the spot where it will chamber "with moderate" stength to close the bolt,(I find the spot 1/16turn or so before the die make contact with the shell holder). I leave near.003"headspace to make sure the rounds wiil chamber.If you dont have a headspace gauge you can use lawer of scotch tape(putting them on the head of the case,cutting them round,you can measure "headspace"...
 
Posts: 439 | Location: Quebec Canada | Registered: 27 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Wes. Let's keep this simple. Remove the scope and check the screws holding the blocks to to action. You might even consider removing them, cleaning out the screw holes and using Loctite on them when putting them back in. Then, remount the scope, sight in and see if that fixes the problem. If not, do try another scope.
The idea to check the tightness of the action screws is also a good idea.
I once had a Leupold scope on a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight, and groups were similar to what you are experiencing. I had a trigger job done, glass bedding, you name it. it couldn't be the scope you see, as it was brand new. Well, I was about to take that rifle to the next gun show and dump it, when I decided to put an "El Cheapo" scope on it and sight it in with some factory ammo I had on hand. Once I had it on paper, I shot for a group and the first three shots were in .75". The next two opened things up to one full inch. The Leupold scope when bact to them to be fixed. FWIW, I got it back and fixed in just about a week. Great service. I do seriously suspect the scope.
Paul B.
 
Posts: 2814 | Location: Tucson AZ USA | Registered: 11 May 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
WesN
Buy a box of Federal 168 grain Match. If your rifle does not shoot good with that there is something wrong with the gun.


Good advice. Fed. Match ammo is probably as accurate as anything you could put thru your 308. Give that a try and if this does not shoot the problem is w/scope or rifle.

I'm betting on scope problems, myself.

Regards,
hm


2 Chronicles 7:14:
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
 
Posts: 932 | Registered: 21 September 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by vapodog:

You'll drive yourself nuts trying reloading solutions. This is a gun problem and glass bedding and free floating the barrel is the first thing that needs to be done.

If that don't improve things a lot then try a different (and proven) scope.


WesN

Seems I find myself agreeing with Vapodog most of the time. Generally when I get a rifle it makes a trip to the gunsmith for a trigger job and glass bedding the recoil lug and I free float the barrel before all else. Accuracy is 90% the gun, IMHO. All the other little things in loading only help a little.


Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens


____________________________________
There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
- Mark Twain |

Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.

___________________________________
 
Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by WesN:
I started reloading to make what I thought would be more accurate ammunition. I have a Savage Model 10 chambered in .308 with just a middle of the road Simmons scope on it. I am loading Winchester Brass with Speer 150 gr BTSP's, using Fed 210M primers and 44,45 and 46 gr of Varget. At 100 yards I have not had even close to a 1 inch group 3 shot group with any of the loads. At first I thought it might be me, so I upgraded my bags and even had someone else shoot the gun, but that didn't help. I can almost shoot 1 inch groups with factory ammo out of a dang SKS or my K31 at 100 yards, so I don't think it is me.

In the Savage the first shot might be 2 inches from the bullseye at 2 o'clock, then shot two might be 2 inches from bullseye at 8 o'clock. They just seem to be all over the place. This was brand new brass that I am full length resizing. I am not an experienced reloader by any means, but the rounds I load for my 45-70 hold at about 1.5 inches at 100 yards with XS Ghost ring sights. What could I be doing wrong?
It could be that your rifle just doesn't like Speer bullets, or perhaps doesn't like those PARTICULAR Speer bullets. For example, I have rarely gotten acceptable accuracy out of ANY gun with Hornady bullets, but both Sierras and Nosler Partition bullets have always worked very well for me....

How does your rifle shoot with factory ammo? Better than with your handloads? Perhaps the problem is with your rifle.....


"Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen."
 
Posts: 4386 | Location: New Woodstock, Madison County, Central NY | Registered: 04 January 2005Reply With Quote
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SmilerPaulb has some good advice to follow. And yes IMR-4064 is a bit slower than IMR-4895. Been hard to get the words to come out right after 4 by passes done on the old heart. Once I was reloading a 30/06 for my dad and he would shoot good one time out and bad the next time. I watched him closely and he was flinching and jerking the trigger. We found out he was flinching from the sound so we got him a real good pair of ear muffs. After a few rounds he did ok from there on.
 
Posts: 671 | Location: none | Registered: 14 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Blob1:
... Been hard to get the words to come out right after 4 by passes done on the old heart. ...
Hey Blob1, The very best of luck to you.
---

Hey WesN, Looks like you have had a lot of excellent advice. Let me suggest you sit back for a minute and catch your breath. The problem could indeed be about anything mentioned.

Checking for the loose screws, stock fit, extremely clean bore, making sure I put on a good scope, proper trigger adjustment, etc., are all done before heading to the Range.

Then I build some Benchmark Loads, using "fully prepped", weight segregated cases. When the rifle is a 308Win, I do the Benchmarking with mostly 150gr or 168gr Sierra MatchKings, but also use some 150gr or 165gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. Varget is a great powder in the 308Win, so that is probably not something to be concerned about.

If a rifle won't shoot small groups with those Bullets, then it is generally trading bait. The 308Win is typically easy to get shooting, so there is no need to try 8-9 powders.

Take your cleaning gear with you and reclean every 6-9 shots. It takes awhile to get "some" new barrels broken in, and some just require more cleaning than others.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
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If you're sure the gun and/or scope is NOT at fault, then try these suggestions:

Keep the brass, primers, and powder. Change to a NON boat-tail bullet. Don't crimp. Don't screw the resizing die in until it touches the shell holder--back it up some--you might be squeezing the case too far. Seat a bullet .030" from rifling leade--even if you must load it single shot because it is too long to fit into the magazine.

Any of these should shrink your groups to less than 4 inches at 100 yards.

But most of all, let us know how you make out. Feedback to those who provided suggestions is common courtesy.
 
Posts: 4799 | Location: Lehigh county, PA | Registered: 17 October 2002Reply With Quote
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I don't have another scope to try at this time. I have checked mounts etc. I broke my decapping pin and the expander ball and rod on my die yesterday so I can't work on any new brass, but I already have 30 pieces sized and primed from the previous time. I will load some 168gr Sierra Match Kings with Varget and IMR-4064 and see what happens this weekend at the range. I very much appreciate everyones suggestions, most I can't do at this time. I will let you know how it shoots after Saturday.

Wes


----
Towards danger; but not too rashly, nor too straight
 
Posts: 100 | Location: Tampa | Registered: 05 February 2005Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by WesN:
... I will load some 168gr Sierra Match Kings with Varget and IMR-4064 and see what happens this weekend at the range. ..
Hey Wes, That should shoot well for you. Seat the bullets 0.010" Into the Lands and use the beginning loads shown in your Manual. This will create a "crush fit" on the bullet and has the potential to raise your pressure just a bit, so don't be concerned about hitting a SAFE MAX just yet.

If you happen to have any H380 on the shelf, check your Hodgdon manual for the lowest starting Loads with the 168gr bullet and use it. I had a M700VLS that the initial 3-shot groups from it were in the 1s & 2s. I can't normally shoot that well any more, so it really surprised me. It eventually settled into the high 3s & low 4s which is still excellent for my old eyes and poor concentration.

If your rifle won't shoot the Sierras, then something is really wrong.
 
Posts: 9920 | Location: Carolinas, USA | Registered: 22 April 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Hot Core:
quote:
Originally posted by WesN:
... I will load some 168gr Sierra Match Kings with Varget and IMR-4064 and see what happens this weekend at the range. ..
Hey Wes, That should shoot well for you. Seat the bullets 0.010" Into the Lands and use the beginning loads shown in your Manual. This will create a "crush fit" on the bullet and has the potential to raise your pressure just a bit, so don't be concerned about hitting a SAFE MAX just yet.

If you happen to have any H380 on the shelf, check your Hodgdon manual for the lowest starting Loads with the 168gr bullet and use it. I had a M700VLS that the initial 3-shot groups from it were in the 1s & 2s. I can't normally shoot that well any more, so it really surprised me. It eventually settled into the high 3s & low 4s which is still excellent for my old eyes and poor concentration.

If your rifle won't shoot the Sierras, then something is really wrong.


From past experience with 168MKs,(friends PSS 308) and witnessed groups from varying seating depths, you need not seat the bullets .010" INTO the lands, he actually got the best groups with an oal of 2.840" which is like .100" off the lands, because of Sierras tangent ogive, they're not fussy where you seat them. Most rifles have too long of throats anyway, but you can try, in my Rem. 308 sporter barrel, seating the bullets .010" into the lands would leave the bullet hanging on for dear life in the case, ie. not much neck tension. BTW, Sierra has a max of 48.2grs. with H380, if you choose to use it, accuracy load is of course, 42grs. RE15, same powder the sniper round(M118)uses. Sierra also uses the same rifle and components as you, (cept Win. brass). Jay
 
Posts: 1745 | Location: WI. | Registered: 19 May 2003Reply With Quote
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Wes,
From the desription you gave, it sounds like just what I went through last deer season. My old trust Savage went from a 1 inch shooting venision provider to something that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I floated the barrel, tried a few different powders, and almost bought a new gun till an old guy at the gun store asked if I had tried a new scope.

Seems the stock Simmons that came with the gun went bad over the winter (I might have banged it some dragging the deer out of the woods). Put a new Nikon on, and the old .308 shoots better than ever.

Check you scope, I bet it is off.
 
Posts: 727 | Location: Eastern Iowa (NUTS!) | Registered: 29 March 2003Reply With Quote
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Okay...let's start from the beginning...

You say you have a Savage 10, but neglect to say which model 10 you have. Is it the GXP "Package kit" where you get the rifle, scope, bases, rings and sling all in one package for around $380? If so, think about it.

If it is the LE2B, it is a totally different story.

Secondly, you picked one bullet (and in my estimation, not the best choice of bullet) and one powder (again, in my opinion, not the best powder choice either).

I would suggest that you strip the gun down. Totally.

The re-assemble it and make sure all screws are tightened properly, recording the in.lbs. used when tightening the screws.

Place the rifle with the scope attached somewhere where it will be in warm direct sunlight for at least 8 hours, and check the tightness of the screws, comparing your readings to the original ones.

Then place the rifle and scope in a deep freeze for 8 hours and check the screws again. If there is ANY difference in the torque of the screws, tighten them to the "heaviest" reading you obtained on each screw.

Now that is done, go get some better bullets. I would suggest Sierra 150 grain HPBT or the Nosler (or Combined Technology) Ballistic Tips.

While you are buying those bullets pick up a couple of pounds of N-135 and some Remington 9-1/2 primers.

Now start loading ... N-135 From 41.0 grains to 46.0 grains, in 0.5 grain steps.

Jumping right in and buying a new scope, or a new barrel, or modifying the factory bedding as a first step in looking for "accuracy" is not the least expensive or most productive way of beginning your quest.
 
Posts: 3282 | Location: Saint Marie, Montana | Registered: 22 May 2002Reply With Quote
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