It had been introduced and chambered in the Model 70?
I ask this because I have noticed on the forums that slower bigger calibers such as 338/06, 338 Win 35 Whelen, 375 H&H and 416 Rem seem to be mostly in Model 70 or Mauser based rifles.
It seems to be the 22/250s, 7mm STWs etc. that are in the Rem 700s.
What do you think?
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
There is no great demand for 35-caliber long guns in the US. There is a small demand, in specialiazed areas, and probably 1./2 the guns sold there never see any action.
But I would imagine that if you checked with Ruger, Remington and Winchester sales, they would tell you that they sell more .270's and '06's than all other calibers combined.
Posts: 3282 | Location: Saint Marie, Montana | Registered: 22 May 2002
Mike375, I think you have something there. I had an old Pre-64 Model 70 30-06 rebarreled to 35 Whelen. It is unique and sweet, and knocks the wild boars flat with a single shot.
In fact, if Winchester had adopted the 35 Whelen back in the 1930's, the minimum legal DGR in Africa would probably have been the 35 Whelen or equivalent instead of the 375 H&H.
My guess is that the 35 Whelen would have really taken off as a factory cartridge if they had offered it in the Winchester Model 70 from the get go, as you suggest.
I don't think the .35 Whelen would have ended up as the minimum DGR for the reason that most of the big game hunting in Africa at the time was in British controlled areas of Africa (Kenya and Tanganyika, now Tanzania)and the .375 H&H was a British round. Unfortunatly, the .35 caliber has just never flown here in the U.S. and nobody can figure out why. The .35 Rerm. sells well, but that is a short range brush gun, nothing more. The .358 has never been popular, except with those who have one and know better. The same can be said for the Whelen. BTW. Winchester did chamber a few pre64's in .35 Whelen. I saw one at a gun show last year. Firm asking price was $30,000. Winchester's custom shop will supposedly build one today, but the price is fairly high. I'd love to have one. Paul B.
Posts: 2814 | Location: Tucson AZ USA | Registered: 11 May 2001
I agree that the .35 Whelen might have become the minimum DGR in Africa because the 350 Rigby Magnum had a good reputation in the pre-375 days, and the Whelen easily duplicates its ballistics. Taylor speaks approvingly of the Rigby mag (and even more approvingly of the rimmed version) in his African Rifles & Cartridges book.
Had the Whelen been widely chambered in the model 70 and been oriented toward Africa, perhaps the standard bullet weight would have been 275 or 300 grains versus 250.
What killed wan't being introduced in cheap mass production guns, what killed it was the ignorant gun writers that label all 35 bores "woods guns". This lable is akin to calling a new car a grocery getter. No pizazz, no sales. The gun companies make their $ by large sales, and most sales are from the generic deer hunter, who is basically ignorant of guns, but is smitten by good sales pitches.
Posts: 7213 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 27 February 2001
You are right on the money Paul H. I would happily take a 35 Whelen as a one rifle hunting battery. I wouldn't spend a cent on a 7mm Remington ultra mag. Just a velocity based hype that appeals to the ignorant. I will not be surprised to see it and its clones go the way of the 264 WinMag with a 24 inch barrel. One man's opinion. MM
I have had the 35 Whelan and I though it was a great caliber to work with and very powerful.
But I guess I am also influenced by the pizzaz factor becuase I prefer the 300 H&H/375 H&H combo for the gun setup than the 270/35 Whelan but probaly the latter two are better.
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
The 375 H&H has the nostalgia that the 35 whelen will never have, then again, neither will any of the Johnny come lately 375's. Just saying 375 H&H envokes certain mental pictures.
Personally I'd take either a 6.5mm of some varient or a .308 win on the low end, the 35 whelen for the middle, and the 500 Jeffrey for the I have a big badass rifle.
Posts: 7213 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 27 February 2001
I'm not against all high velocity cartridges, I shoot .223, .308, 30-06, and .338 WinMag. The thing I cannot fathom is the ultramag in calibers 30 and smaller in a sporter with 26 inch barrels. All I see there is vicious recoil, muzzle blast, short barrel life, and unpleasant shooting. Probably useful in HEAVY long-range specialty rifles. I would imagine with barrels from 30-36 inches. MM
The Whelan came to be (1922) because we had no American big bore with any ranging ability. The instant the .375 was offered in the then new Model 70, the Whelan was effectively dead. Timing is everything. Had Winchester offered the .375 after the war, the Whelan may have been more established and had a real chance to achieve factory status 40 years earlier than it did in 1987. It's a very well balanced and effective hunting cartridge.
For the life of me I don't understand why the Whelan/ 358 Win/ 350 Rem Mag/ 356 Win failed to sell. Maybe the 35's exist in no man's land too big to interest the small bore folks and to small for a big bore addict. To me they spell moderation and I love all of em. My next rifle might just be a 9.3 x 62 which differs from the Whelan hardly at all.
I love my Whelen, actually an Ackley Imp Whelen. It is on a custom Springfield done many years ago in Austria. It bears 1955 FN proof marks and has been responsible for the demise of more than a few Utah mulies when I lived there. Cobalt
I think North of 60 has it right. We are in the minority, the majority hunt about a week a year and trade guns after every season or two and seem to go back and forth between the flat shootin, 3500fps 7mm or 30 cals. to something they can stick there hand down the barrel with little or no interest in whats in between.
It is truly a shame that the Whelen never really made it commercially. If it had been chambered by others and not just Remington it might have been different but then again... It is an enthusiast's cartridge, one that doesn't appeal to the masses and so it shall remain. I'm sure it will always have a loyal group of followers and users, and today with all of the semi-custom makers out there it's availability is assured for years to come. That said, a somewhat downloaded 338mag will do all it could ever hope to, and therein lies the problem. Why sacrifice readily available 338 ammo and much better saleability?
Posts: 1148 | Location: The Hunting Fields | Registered: 22 May 2002
In case anyone is interested in acquiring a new .35 Whelen, just last month I purchased a NEW production Ruger M77 Mk II in .35 Whelen. It's a special edition production run for Davidson's (http://www.galleryofguns.com/). I believe they still have some in stock. It's comes with the horrendous original Ruger synthetic stock but that's easily corrected. I have an English walnut stock in the works for it.
I took it out for the first time last weekend and ran about 30 rounds through it. I got a 4-shot 3/4" group (100 yds) with Hornady 250 gr RN. I also shot a 7-shot 1" group (100 yds) using Nosler 225 gr Ballistic Tips. And that's with the factory trigger, which is a bit heavy, and the Ruger synthetic stock. It looks like this one is going to be a keeper.
Well, what about the 358 Norma magnum? That one too seems never to have caught hold. Based on ballistics (I've never shot or even seen one), it would seem to be near-perfect for everything this side of cape buffalo and elephant.
I do remember an article in one of the gun rags some years back by Bob Bristler praising the 358 Norma. But nothing seems to have come of it, and the caliber now seems to be dead, or at least so comatose as to defy resuscitation.
Posts: 5883 | Location: People's Republic of Maryland | Registered: 11 March 2001
No 358 caliber ever has or ever will be a success in the USA or in the game fields of the world, so much the shame...
I'll have to argue that the 9.3x62 is in the same class as the 35 Whelan..The 9.3x62 is more in the same class as the 375 H&H when properly loaded, at least mine is with a 286 at 2550 FPS, a 250 at 2650 FPS; a 300 at 2480 FPS and a 320 at 2400 FPS....26" barrel and exciting loads of RL-15..
My proposal is to bring out the " .358 Remington Express " . It would be basically the 9.3x62 case with .358 bullets and a longer neck . For factory loads I would have a 210 gr bull-listic tip boat tail at 2950 fps for the velocity freaks and the guys who like to tenderize their deer and kill them at the same time . A 250 gr ultra core-lock at 2660 fps for elk and all around use . And a 280 gr swift at 2475 fps for penetration enthusiasts and those who are bothered by cape buffalo trampling their gardens .
Think it would sell ?
Posts: 1660 | Location: Gary , SD | Registered: 05 March 2001
One thing that always has me beat is why the 338/06 is deemed better because of bullet availability and better sectional density.
The 35 caliber seems to offer more than enough premium bullets and then there is all those pistol bullets and 35 Remington bullets and course there is the cast bullet situation.
If the 338/06 is the way go over the 35 Whelen because of higher sectional density with the same weight bullet then surely the 30/06 must be the way to go over the 338/06.
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
As the name applies I love The 35 cal. I have 1 REM 760, and 2 REM 7600 in the 35 Whelan. The 760 is a 35 REM. opened to the Whelan. The 7600's were 30-06 that I had rebored to 35 Whelan. I love them all. I also have in bolt guns, a 35 REM, 350 REM mag, 358 norma and last year I had a custom 358 STA built. The 358 STA quickly passed the Whelan's as my favorite, but I will not part with any of my 35's. My goal is to own at least one of every caliber before I expire from this planet. I am glad to say that I am well on my way
[This message has been edited by 35nut (edited 10-31-2001).]
Posts: 358 | Location: Virginia | Registered: 15 March 2001
