Folks,

I got a problem that I�m sure is a simple one, but is perplexing me.

This morning I was loading up some 458 Lott round. This is the first time I�ve loaded for this round and am using dies and components that were included with my (new) rifle.

I�m using Hornady dies and new BELL brass. The dies are a three-die set with a belling die.

The sizing die doesn�t have an expander ball.

Here are photos of the seating and sizing dies, with decapper.



I�ve never loaded for straight wall cases so I�m not sure it I need to bell the mouths. However I can�t get the belling die to work with the rounds, as it appears to be too short. If I put the press in the full up position with a shell in place, I can�t get the belling die to engage the threads (approx .5 in of gap). If I do use it I get EXTREME belling.

I don�t think that I need the belling die however as I was able to get the bullets to seat easliy with out it. I'm an idiot, so take that for what it's worth...

If you look at the following photo, you�ll see that the loaded rounds have a visible bulge where the bullet is seated, a waist below the bullet, and another bulge where the sizing die finished it�s necking process. The bullets seated easily and I don't believe I'm crumpling the necks from not using the belling die.



Run-out is extreme, as you would expect.

I think that the problem is that the sizing die doesn�t have an expander ball.

Am I on the right tract here or is there something I�m missing or doing wrong?

Thanks!!

-Steve

[ 10-19-2003, 22:42: Message edited by: Steve ]

Steve,

the answers you get from this will interest me as I have just began loading for the Lott with Hornady dies. My ammo has that bulge your showing in the first ammo pic to. I found with the flarer die in my Rockchucker that I justneed to screw it in only to 2 threads or so and it gives me a slight flare. My seating die is also at the up most level being in only by two or so threads. is also only screwed slightly in.

Ammo I am shooting however works fine. I bought the Horandy dies as there so much cheaper but I think the CH4 dies in the long run may be an "easier" option.

I would have to say the flarer they give you in the Hornady dies looks as though it's generic and used for a number of different calibres. It might pay to switch over and use an RCBS flarer thats in a set of 45/70 dies for example.

Steve can you explain to me the concept of run out as I am "lord of the idiots" as George Kastanza would say.....

PC,

Sir, you are a meer pretender to the thone of idiocy. I am the true king...

Glad to hear that I'm not the only member of this royal family, though.

I have the exact setup that you have (press, etc...).

Runout is simply deviation from the center line of the case. I was refering to bullet runout. I use an RCBS Casemaster to measure it. There are better tools to measure it, but this suits my needs.

Does your decapper have an expander ball? Since your having the same problem, I doesn't sound like it. But being king and all, I thought I'd ask.

Do you think a 45/70 expander would work and be long enough?

I agree with you about the flaring die. It is generic.

I was going to call Hornady tomorrow and ask them, but I thought I would poll the collective wisdom of AR first.

-Steve

[ 10-20-2003, 01:50: Message edited by: Steve ]

Steve,

My Hornady dies are exactly the same as yours,

and I reckon the 45/70 or .458 RCBS flarer could be made to work by simply not turning it into the press as far as you would if you where doing .458 win mags or 45/70 cases.

There are certain features I like on the Hornady dies but others I am not so sure aboout.

How much does runout affect accuracy of a round like the .458 lott. I mean for what we use them for does it matter do you think ??

PC,

I'm certainly no expert, but the amount I'm seeing can't be good. I haven't shot mine and I sure my future flinch will mask a lot. But I beleive that if you can see the run-out, then its way too much.

According to my guage it was about .020 inches. The picture above doesn't show it well, but the bottom round is really bad. The bullet is visibly offset from the centerline, yet still somewhat parallel to it.

My anal retentive nature gets the best of me. Even if it was thought to be okay, I'd still like to get it fixed.

-Steve

Steve, PC, I had a sim. problem loading my Lott using RCBS .458 dies. It helped to partially expand/flare the neck, rotate the case 180deg. & finish flaring. When you seat the bullet do the same thing, partially seat & rotate then finish seating. There is still a shoulder where the bullet base, especially the long 500grRN, stops, but runout is better. Good luck w/ it. I let my Lott go, too much of a good thing for this humble hunter.

Hi Steve,
I have RCBS dies, a standard 3-die set: Sizer Die, Expander Die, Seater die. A 2-die set has the expander on the decapping rod in the sizing die, for bottle necked cases, of course.

It is important to bell/flare the case mouth slightly with the expander die. Just enough so that a square based bullet will sit on top of the case, barely started in. Does your expander not adjust downward from the top of the die, and lock in place with a lock ring?

You did not show the expander die. It is important.

I haven't had any trouble like this when dies are set right. I have made the occasional misshapen load like yours, akin to "accordion damage" when the seater is either too deep or not deep enough on a seating + crimping operation.

Getting that proper slight bell and the seater adjusted will prevent the runout.

Also, maybe not in your case, an incompatible seater plug for the bullet nose might contribute.

I find it easiest for me to seat and then crimp in two separate steps to avoid accordion damage and buckling off center.

Gotta get a proper slight bell on the case mouth.

Ron,

I'm trying to upload photos of the belling/flaring die. But my hosting service seems to be rejecting connections at the moment. I'll post them as soon as the server accepts connections again.

The 'belling/flaring' has no adjustments other than the treads to put it into the press.

Well the photo just uploaded while I was typing:





As you can see there is only one adjustment on the die. That being how far it can be screwed into the press.

I've also included a photo of a shell that I 'flared'. I only had the die in the press just enough to engage about a thread and a half. I really don't believe that I can go much higher. The photo doesn't show it but the flaring is quite a bit greater than diameter than the bullet.

The bulge you see just above the flaring is where I had previously had a bullet (also shown) before pulling it and flaring the shell. This also shows the 'waist' I described above.

-Steve

P.S. Just watched a Hippo consume some buffalo flesh from a lion kill on PBS. Wild!!

[ 10-20-2003, 08:35: Message edited by: Steve ]

Steve,
That bell/flare you've got going doesn't look at all right to me. I load 45/70 with an RCBS 3 die set and the bell/flare is very gentle compared to what I see on that case. The slight case bulge caused by the bullet is normal in straight wall cases. Sounds like you're dialed in on the adjustments, maybe the problem lies in the die?

Steve try turning the flarer die in only abou two threads, I think it's about right there for me now. It certainly is an odd style of flarer.

I though that special little tube in the Hornady seating die that floats within was supposed to help with run out, or eliminate it even ??

Steve,
That is indeed a way-excessive application of the expander die.

I don't own any 3-die Hornady sets. My 3-die RCBS sets have an expander that screws into the top of the die and allows adjustment separately from the body of the die.

You are applying the expander die excessively if that is how you are belling/flaring the case mouths with it. Back it out of the press some. The bell/flare should be barely perceptible.

You will over work the brass and shorten its life if you bell the mouths that much.

The bulge in the loaded round appears to be one sided which would suggest to me that there is poor alignment in the seater die itself (assuming the run-out is good on sized cases before loading). You might want to send it back and see if they'll replace it. If it is in spec, I would look for a better seating die.

Looks like the hornady die set has some problems there. Looking at the brass it appears that the dies are over working the top end of the brass; which is not uncommon in strait walled dies. I would suggest that to save your sanity and your lott brass you need to get a different set of dies from a different company. You CAN load a lott by carefully using 458 win mag dies; except you can not full length size the lott brass all the way down. If you either have or can borrow a set of "non Hornady" 458 Win Mag dies you can try the expander die for it; screwed in high. Or better yet if you know someone that shoots "blackpowder cases" and has a 45-110 die set you're really in business. Watch close and start real high. you can watch the expander work it's way down the case as you slowly screw it deeper. Then as soon as you start to see the belling start; stop and lock it down.

Thanks all for the tips.

In regards to setting the flaring/expander die higher into the press so that it doesn't engage the shell as much. With the shell shown above, I only had the die screwed in only about a thread and a half.

In fact if I put the press in the up position, without the die in place. I then place the die onto the shell as it is exposed through the top of the press, I have about a 1/4 -1/2 an inch of gap between the bottom of the die and the press.

The whole thing doesn't seem right.

I'm going to call Hornady this morning and see if they can pull my head from my butt.

-Steve

Okay...here's the BIG question...

Have you measured the dimensions of the brass before you have done anything to it?

[ 10-21-2003, 01:12: Message edited by: ricciardelli ]

Steve,

Yes, I measured a new, unfired case this morning. The outside case mouth diameter was right at ~.480. After sizing it was ~.473.

I think that your on to something. I think that the sizing die is reducing the diameter to much.

That and the shortness of the expander die is the source of my problems.

Hornady is sending me a new expander die.

Not sure what Im going to do about the sizing step.

Thanks!

-Steve

Steve,

are we on the same track in regards to terminology I seem to be calling the expander die the flarer is that what you refering to ?? Maybe mine is also not right ??

I think when I have another job I will order a set of CH4 dies.

I am a begginner at reloading in some respects.

PC,

I believe that your terminology is correct. according to Hornady it is an 'expander die'. Remember that I am the king...

-Steve

Maybe they got a .475 expander in a .458 die???

Something ain't Kosher. I thought of the brass thing, but I have loaded BeLL and Hornady brass interchangeably, as well as HDS, and Barnes Basic, in my RCBS dies.

How do they but a non-adjustable expander in a Hornady expander die? Do they weld it in or machine it in there where the sun don't shine? Just screw it in with Loctite? I can't conceive of that being a good setup for an expander die.

Steve I am right behind your tail......one mistake and I will overtake you

That expander die is no good in most size presses,
and needs to be used in taller presses.Get an
adjustible expander,More important is that your
resize die is making brass way to small,Ruin
brass for long life.I had a die like that for a 458Win and I honed it out.It was one that made base too small also.Most folks can't hone them out.Got to get a different sizing die, so that
after firing, depending on chamber, your neck will be .483 plus and after resizing it should come out close to regular specs, .479--.481.
And if it is overworking neck it probably is over working base...Also getting an AmmoMaster press solves length problems...Ed

If it makes you feel any better, my shells usually look like the ones you posted too. Same with 45-70 and 450 Marlin. The dies are probably sizing the case too small. I have a box of 45-70 right here, half new, half fired/resized. The resized neck is .007"-.008" smaller than the new brass from the same box. As a result the resized stuff looks like yours. I plan on honing out my die to see if I can get that factory size back.

Could someone please explain the method of honing out your dies I may send my Hornady dies to my smith for honing is that possible ??

I was just going to do it myself with some sandpaper and a drill. I think there are some "bottle brush" hones available that small, but I'm not sure.

I am not experiencing your problems. Have you checked and or trimmed your brass to length?

Frank,

Not sure if your directing the question to me or PC, but yes I've checked case length. Of the ten new shell that I was going to load, they are were in the 2.75" range.

-Steve

Another solution:

Run your loaded rounds part way into a 475 sizing die (such as 470 capstick) to straighten that bulge out.

Hey Steve, hopefully by now you have solved the problem. If not. I tried messing with my dies to see if I could duplicate your problem and did by pressing too hard with the "flare die" in place. I have mine set in a Rockchucker screwed down enough to see the edge of the die from the shell point of view. I raise my shell until I feel contact and them only press a tiny bit to give the flare- nearly imperceptable but enough to hold a bullet in place. If you try to seat the shell as you would with the decapper- all the way to the belt- it will give you a flare that will catch on the edges of the seater die and crumple the shell. Maybe that is it? Maybe not but it works for me.
Frank

[ 10-29-2003, 06:55: Message edited by: Frank Martinez ]

Frank,

Thanks for the tips.

I haven't been able to get back to it as I had one of they guys that works for me die suddenly last week. I've been busy working with all his coworkers and family. I been a bit worn out to say the least.

I hope to get back to it this weekend, though.

Just so I understand, when you say 'from the shell point of view' do you mean the bottom of die is showing through the top of the press?

I'll give it a shot though.

Thanks!!

-Steve

Yes. The die is barely showing from the inside. It doesn't matter how much is showing as you are doing the actual flare step by feel.
Frank

PS. I think having the outline of the bullet show through the brass is normal as it shows on all my straight wall cases.

Folks,

Finally got the time to load some more rounds and take the rifle to the range.

I just took it easy when expanding and seating. Everything seemed okay. But I still don't like the way the expander works. Have to use Frank's technique of doing it by feel. I would love to find some way to raise the expander die up a bit.

I only shot 9 rounds, off hand. It was certainly stout in recoil, but not un-bearable.

For the record I used 78 grns and 80 grns of 4320, for this first experimental session.

Thanks for all the help folks!!

-Steve

Steve You could get an extension made up for it Like have a theraded section that screws into the press and then alows the flare die to be screwed into the extension piece. Anyone handy with a lathe would be able make it.

PC,

Thanks. I've also thought about that. I might just try to get some CH4D dies.

As a side note and not to keep beating a dead horse; I noticed on the Midway site that one of the reviewers of the Hornady 458 Lott dies was having a similar problem. I was using Bell brass, however.

Midway Review

-Steve

Steve,

I will probably get some CH4 dies as well at some point, the Hornady's will get me through for the minuet, but The old saying is you get what you pay for, I tried to save a few bucks when I should have just bought the darned CH4 dies in the first instance.

Just to add I thought that the extension that slips in and out of the Hornady seating die was supposed to keep the bullet perfectly concentric

Your dies are way overexpanding the cases. It looks almost like a .45/70 or .458 expander die being used on the longer Lott cases. I'd save myself the headache and error-prone procedure of expanding by feel and just get a good set of RCBS dies - they have a better design.

The dies may be sizing the brass down to much. Or the brass wall thickness is to big in dia. try different brand of brass.

Thanks Guys! I'm going to be buying new dies and brass shortly.

-Steve

Steve,

Allthough I dont load for the 458.. But I had serval problems with hornady dies.. I had a set of 25/06 dies that gave me nothing but problems.. I would get stuck cases no matter what I tried and when I went to seat the bullets it always ringed them no matter what type.. sometimes it would seat them crooked no matter what I did to try and correct it.. I took them to my guns shop and the owner traded me a new set.. Got the new set sure enough I had the same problem.. I sent them back to hornady and they said they cleaned them up and should be good to go now.. But I still had the same issue.. I finally threw them in the trash and got a set of rcbs dies and havent had any problems since.. The seat die had a tube that slid up and down to seat the bullet and was "supposed" to align the bullet straigter but if you ask me it didnt do its job at all..

6.5 Bandit