I am having my Rem 700 30-06 converted to an AI. Don't ask me why, just cuz I guess.

What is the best way to fireform new brass? Should I load up some cheap bullets with powder I don't use or like and just blast them off? Or should I try and develop a load for this new chamber and fireform at the same time? Seems like the later would make more sense if it would work out that way. When fireforming does the bullet need to be jammed into the lands?

I have been pouring over what data I have on the 30-06 AI. Some of the data seems pretty optimistic when it comes to velocities. Can an AI actually reach just under 3000fps with a 180gr bullet? I plan on working up loads with 165, 180 and 190gr bullets. What are some real life velocities I can expect out of this rifle?

P.O. Ackley's book mentions the 30/06 ICL Caribou. It is obviously a wildcatted 30/06. From the photos, I see nothing too radical about the design. P.O's load data shows 3030 fps with 61.5 grains of 4350.

You might took alook at the 30/06 Hawk-
Scovill. Another improved '06. They claim some pretty impressive numbers for this one. Can't give you specifics 'cause I can't find my reloading manual with data for this cartridge.


Jordan

quote:

Can an AI actually reach just under 3000fps with a 180gr bullet?

The standard 30-06 can reach 2,800'/sec with 180 grain bullets and still maintain respectable pressure of 65,000 PSI and one can reach 3,100'/sec with a .300 Win Mag and roughly the same pressures.

The powder capacity of the .300 Win Mag is vastly larger than the increase of the AI version of the 30-06.....

It's extremely likely that if you actually reach 3,000 with the 30-06AI you'll be far in excess of 65,000 PSI.

Rocky Gibbs claimed 3030 with a 180 and his 30Gibbs from a 26". However he normally measured barrel from the front of the bullet. The Hawk doesn't claim 3000 the 300 Howell claims 2950 from a 25". the Gibbs, Hawk and Howell have almost twice the capacity gain than the AI. I'm sure someone has reached 3000 with a 30-06AI. I doubt that the pressure was 65,000 much less 60,000.

I did plenty of testing with various 06 based AI and blown out wildcats. At equal pressure I always got close to 1% velocity for 4% capacity increase. So 3.7% capacity give right at 1% velocity or 25-35FPS add another 50-75FPS for each 5000psi over 60,000. Many will load AIs to 70,000+ I don't.

If I wanted 3000 with a 180 I would not look to an AI.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:


If I wanted 3000 with a 180 I would not look to an AI.

I am not looking for 3000fps in this AI. I am just looking for some help on what to expect from this cartridge when I start working up loads. Nosler #4 list 2985fps/62gr R-22/24in barrel. This is what I mean by "optimistic" load data.

Hornady's manual lists a .30-06 AI and their comments are that they only achieved burning more powder to get the same velocity as the parent cartridge. This is in a controlled labratory and pressure barrel.

In all seriousness, if you're reaching 2850'/sec with 180s you're about as far as reasonable expectations should allow.....and your rig may not get that without peaking pressure signs first.....RL-22 seems to be the powder of choice

My 23" barreled Wiseman '06 AI is good for 2850 with the most accurate load (IMR 4831) and 2995 with one grain more of R22, shame it is not a one holer like the 4831 load.

quote:

I am not looking for 3000fps in this AI. I am just looking for some help on what to expect from this cartridge when I start working up loads. Nosler #4 list 2985fps/62gr R-22/24in barrel. This is what I mean by "optimistic" load data.

Take a look at the rl22 load for the 180 in the 30-06. In the same book. They show 61 grs for 2872. There is no way that 1 gr more powder in a 3.7gr larger case will give you an extra 113fps.

I have built and tested numerous AI cases built from the 06. 1 for 4 from capacity(25-35fps) and the rest pressure. With a nice tight chamber you can capture most if not all of the pressure in the parent case without building an AI.

On advise from the Ballistician at Nosler, using H 4831 SC, and a 180 grain bullet, with a large rifle primer.. I have been able to hit 3000 fps with a 26 inch barreled Enfield...

This is not an AI chamber either...

It is possible and is not over max pressure, when using Rl 22 or H 4831 Sc....

I have managed it also in a 24 inched Barrel Model 70....

A Remington 700 didn't accomplish the feat tho...

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
Hornady's manual lists a .30-06 AI and their comments are that they only achieved burning more powder to get the same velocity as the parent cartridge. This is in a controlled labratory and pressure barrel.

Thanks, My Hornady 7th does not list the 30-06 AI.

quote:

Originally posted by steve4102:
Thanks, My Hornady 7th does not list the 30-06 AI.

FWIW...there are two manuals (so far) that I trust and one is Hornady's and the other is Hodgdon's hard cover book.

I threw out my Nosler Manual as it was just too often unachievable.

Quesion for Vapodog (or anyone else willing to answer), If it's possible to reload the same case 5 times with the same load, before the primer pocket starts to get loose, what estimated PSI would you be running?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Quesion for Vapodog (or anyone else willing to answer), If it's possible to reload the same case 5 times with the same load, before the primer pocket starts to get loose, what estimated PSI would you be running?

loaded question......but I'll bite.

This could be anything up to (guessing as I don't have a pressure barrel) 75,000 PSI. This varies with the quality and temper of the brass.

Further IMO if ones loads pass that reloading test and he has a modern bolt action rifle his load is safe regardless of the Saami spec for the cartridge. The problem here is that we're just guessing as most of us (and that certainly includes me) don't have the pressure testing equipment.

Here is another variable which I have some interest in: is Lake City National Match 30/06 brass stronger than typical factory brass such that one can obtain an appreciable increase in velocity using LCNM? Inquiring minds want to know.

So far, this has been an interesting discussion. Thanks all for the info. Very useful. Love the '06.


Jordan

quote:

Originally posted by Jordan:
Here is another variable which I have some interest in: is Lake City National Match 30/06 brass stronger than typical factory brass such that one can obtain an appreciable increase in velocity using LCNM? Inquiring minds want to know.

So far, this has been an interesting discussion. Thanks all for the info. Very useful. Love the '06.


Jordan

Jordan,
I hope someone knows the answer and posts it ....certainly I don't know!!!

But here's my point....lets say LC brass will consistantly hold more pressure.....then it will do so with the parent .30-06 cartridge as well as the AI version.

No matter how we slice the cookie it remains that the AI version of the .30-06 gains little to nothing over the base cartridge.

quote:

This could be anything up to (guessing as I don't have a pressure barrel) 75,000 PSI. This varies with the quality and temper of the brass.

25 years ago I tested several AIs and my own wildcats. While during the testing I didn't rerun the same brass to check for how many loadings. But I did use .0005 expansion as reference. That amount of expansion would only allow a couple loadings.

In the same chamber I had brass from different manufacturers expand at between 67,000 and 77,000+ (per strain guage). I also found differences of 5-7,000 between the same manufacturers lots and sometimes in the same lot.

I tested mil 06. Can't remember if it was LC or not. It normally would hold more pressure but did so by reducing volume. So it was pretty much a trade off.

What made me decide to load everything I load around 65,000 was the fact that any small change between cases etc could take a safe load to a primer blower. Often .5gr could go from no sign to blown.

In an 06 case often it would take 5000psi or more to increase velocity 50fps. If I really need that extra 100fps I'll shoot a magnum instead of pushing an 06 case to 70-75000psi.

Just my choice.

quote:

Or should I try and develop a load for this new chamber and fireform at the same time? Seems like the later would make more sense if it would work out that way. When fireforming does the bullet need to be jammed into the lands?

IF your "improved" chamber is cut correctly, the headspace will be exactly the same as it was-same as for a standard '06. So no, you don't need to jam the bullet into the rifling to hold it in the correct orientation to the new chamber, as you would if making cases like the .30 Gibbs where the entire shoulder is shoved forward. The only thing that changed is the diameter of the shoulder, and the angle of the shoulder. The distance from the case head to the datum line should remain unchanged.

However, since the capacity of the case is somewhat increased, it is likely that you will have to work up your accuracy load using cases that have already ben formed to the new chamber, as powder burning characteristics may now be different. So loads developed during fire-forming of standard cases may or may not perform the same when used in formed brass.

I suppose one COULD work up an accurate load when fire-forming, then try it in the reformed cases and see if it still works acceptably. If it does, so much the better......

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Quesion for Vapodog (or anyone else willing to answer), If it's possible to reload the same case 5 times with the same load, before the primer pocket starts to get loose, what estimated PSI would you be running?

Well, for one thing, this is going to depend alot on the brass-how hard is it? There was a time not too long ago when the .300 WIN. MAG. would actually produce usable velocities higher than you could get from a .300 Weatherby using the same bullets in NORMA cases. This was due to two factors-the Norma brass had a thinner web than the Winchester cases, and the Norma brass was alot softer-the primer pockets stretched before the velocity was up to the desired level......

Since even the toughest brass will begin to flow at pressures between 60 and 65 K PSI, I would say that any load that makes you have to scrap your brass at no more than five shots is close to 70 K PSI...... and should be cut at least 5%!

quote:

Norma brass had a thinner web than the Winchester cases, and the Norma brass was alot softer-the primer pockets

Yep I agree 100% on that one. However I use only 280Norma brass from two lots to form my wildcats. I picked up several grs of capacity and I used the somewhat softer brass as a ceiling.

My norma brass measures .473. My reamer is made to fit that brass with minimum clearance. My Norma brass would always start giving expansion around 65-67 and .0005 below 70,000. So since I have no guidelines to start from I take a powder and work up to that point. Then back off a touch and that is my upper limit.

My old boss has sister rifles in 280 & 340. He uses R&P (I believe) for the 280 and Howell basic left at 3.6 for the 340. His 340 he can't reach my velocity since the howell is very thick and the 280 his loads are about 1 gr less than mine. Both of these cases have a smaller head but the chambers were cut with my reamer.

steve4102: Fireforming cases? Load some cast or plinking bullets in lower weight (110-125 grains) with minimal load of Red Dot in your new cases, after sizing and trimming. I have shot 8.5 grains of Red Dot but with cast in MY rifle. Regards

Thanks for the returns on the first question. Now, for the second question...if one can get 5 reloadings of the case before the primer pocket is judged too loose, would that be a safe load? - that is, using a modern bolt-acion rifle such as a Rem700 or Win70.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Thanks for the returns on the first question. Now, for the second question...if one can get 5 reloadings of the case before the primer pocket is judged too loose, would that be a safe load? - that is, using a modern bolt-acion rifle such as a Rem700 or Win70.

]

I believe I have already given my opinion on this with my reply as quoted:

quote:

Further IMO if ones loads pass that reloading test and he has a modern bolt action rifle his load is safe regardless of the Saami spec for the cartridge. The problem here is that we're just guessing as most of us (and that certainly includes me) don't have the pressure testing equipment.

I personally would have no concerns shooting a round at 75,000 PSI if the case was proving it's ability to tolerate it and I was getting something for it.....in short...yes...I'd judge it safe for my personal use with the exact components used to make the rounds.

As an aside.....I find it interesting that IMO increased velocity is not always resulting from merely raising pressures. (adding powder) It seems theres limiting returns here and higher pressures aren't always of any useful value.....while IMO they are safe, one has to ask .....What for"

So AIU.....where are we going with this?....

Vapodog, again thanks for the return.

It seems to me that the limiting factor in performance is the brass case - not the modern bolt-action rifle. The case will fail long before the action does, the latter at ~150,000 psi.

I called Lapua and asked at what PSI do their cases fail, and they emphatically stated 67,000 PSI. Others I trust state that ~63,000 PSI is when the average brass case begins to "flow significantly."

The effects of PSI are additive, since brass is not perfectly elastic (ie., the case never returns completely to its prious size no matter the PSI). Now, any case that can survive 5 reloadings of the same load without failure can't be getting pounded each time too much more than ~63-67,000 PSI.

Some were stating above that 3000 fps from a 30-06 AI was not realistic...indeed, one comment was, "If I wanted 3000 with a 180 I would not look to an AI."

Yet, I've repeatedly achieved 3000 fps plus velocities with Re25 (~70 grs with 180 NBTs or Accubonds), using a 26" barrel. GSSP, who regularly posts on this forum, has duplicated these results and has clearly stated it here. Both he and I get 5 reloadings with the cases.

Also, Quick Load predicts 3080 fps with a 180 Accubond with 68.2 grs of Re25 achieving 65,000 psi, using a 26" barrel.

Finally, as you indicate, what's magical about 60,000 psi (SAAMI for '06) - nothing. If one can operate safely at 65,000 or even 67,000 psi, why not do it. The caveat is that, when operating at peak PSI, one must factor in temperature! A safe load at 72oF may blow the primer at 110oF. I believe primers of blow at ~75 to 80,000 psi.

Regards, AIU

quote:

"If I wanted 3000 with a 180 I would not look to an AI."

Yep I said and it is still my view. Congratulations on getting that velocity from your rifle. I spent years trying to get that last FPS from a given case. Doing so puts you on the edge. For what purpose? Yep bragging rights. To be different. I'm guilty of them all.

As you stated I had different brass start to flow from 65-70,000. Not only did it depend on the manufacturer but the lot number. Same make different lots different results. I also agree primers will come to see you at around 75,000. I don't like the feel of the grit and gas hitting my glasses. Felt it way to many times.

Tight chamber, hard brass you will not see the normal signs until it is to late. A 1/2 gr going from no sign to blown. That is only 5-700psi difference. If a load works at 70 but blows primers at 90 I don't want it. Just my choice. I just don't care to worry if the temperature is 80 or 90.

I load nothing with a 60,000 limit. I try and use 65,000. I shoot the same load summer and winter. If you happen to have the right rifle, find the right case, primer, powder that gives you best accuracy at max pressure. Then you are very lucky. Anymore I will give up velocity for accuracy.

So back to my statement. If I want 3000 with a 180 I would choose a magnum. Lot less trouble. Many more combinations to choose from and you can reach it without stressing anything. My opinion the much simplier way to go.

You guys forget that I have my own case. A blown out 280 I've used from 243 to 416. I have as many of my own design or other wildcats as I have factory. Yes I can push them and beat most factory ammo for the 358 and smaller. But I can't beat my own magnum loads.

If you want to push a case as far as you can go for it. I did it for years. If you simply want a certain velocity the easist way is to use a bigger case.

AIU what really concerns me is not the experienced reloader that checks and double checks like I'm sure you do. It is the ones that read the hype and try and turn a case into something it isn't.

quote:

AIU what really concerns me is not the experienced reloader that checks and double checks like I'm sure you do. It is the ones that read the hype and try and turn a case into something it isn't.

AIU and I have been this route before and I find him an honest and sincere and creditable poster...I've never thought of him as unrealistic when the discussion turns to AI modified rounds. Further I;'m disarmed to disagree with him for two reasons.....
1. There is nothing he has posted that is unrealistically incorrect IMO

2. I have no pressure equipment to back up my argument so it's worthless of me to disagree....even if I wanted to.

This much I can agree with easily.....If I had full measurement of pressures, I'd never load the 30-06 past 65,000 PSI.....same as the .270 Winchester! just no reason to but lacking such equipment I do rely on the expanding primer pockets to tell me when I've gone two far and then reduce the load 2-3 grains! This method has bought me to 2,800'/sec as ther best I can do in the standard round.....as to the AI case....I'll rely on others with pressure equipment to tell me the experience they have had.....and to date, it's a very small to no gain at all.

quote:

AIU what really concerns me is not the experienced reloader that checks and double checks like I'm sure you do. It is the ones that read the hype and try and turn a case into something it isn't.

AIU and Vapodog. I have no doubt as to the load AIU stated. He proved me wrong as to fitting that amount of powder in the case several months ago. My reference to hype was not directed at his post (I'm sorry if I gave that impression)but more to the numerous guotes on the net and even in various publications claiming huge 200-400 fps gains from the AI. I tested many of them over the years several with pressure equipment. Every thing I found was at equal pressure gains were marginal. I some cases there were no gains just burned extra powder.

Vapodog and Ramrod340, we've been talking maximum PSI, primer pockets, number of repeat reloadings, etc. I thought you might be interesting in the following comments from the Lyman reloading manual, which I've found quite good.

It's the 48th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook - for me the best available source.

Chapter 11 - "They Mystery of Pressure" by Bryce M. Towsley. He states, "Note how the primers seat as you reload the case. If they seat easily with little pressure, the primer pocket is likely stretching and the load is too hot. The general rule of thumb with high intensity rifle cartridges is if on the third load the primer pocket is still tight, the load is likely safe. Cases with loose primer pockets should be discarded."

Three successful reloadings for a single case seem adequate for this author.

Finally, worth noting is that Nosler reloading manual lists a 180 load for the '06 AI at 2985 fps and with a 24" barrel (62 grs. Re22)!! Add two inches of barrel and you're close to 3050 fps. Think what you can do with and slower version of Re22 - that is, Re25 and ~70 grs. Try it and you'll be amazed at what the ol'06 will do.

Regards, AIU

AIU
I wouldn't argue this at all.....I'll easily accept that this is doable by the reloader that wants to pursue it and do it right.....

I will argue however that no more than 50'/sec is attributable to the AI feature....that almost the same results can be had from the standard case.

When I get more time after this house building project, I'm going to build an AI just to personally test case life.....I'm of the opinion that the reported long case life of the AI cartridges is the result of "fitted" chambers and not the design of the cartridge.....that a fitted standard chamber will result in the same case life from the standard round too.

quote:

AIU
I wouldn't argue this at all.....I'll easily accept that this is doable by the reloader that wants to pursue it and do it right.....

I will argue however that no more than 50'/sec is attributable to the AI feature....that almost the same results can be had from the standard case.

When I get more time after this house building project, I'm going to build an AI just to personally test case life.....I'm of the opinion that the reported long case life of the AI cartridges is the result of "fitted" chambers and not the design of the cartridge.....that a fitted standard chamber will result in the same case life from the standard round too.

Darn I sure get tired of agreeing with Vapodog all the time.

As I tried to say earlier. I have no reason not to believe that a VERY CAREFUL reloader with the right rifle, chamber, powder, bullet etc can push an 06 180 to 3050. But, it will take very careful work and you will be on the very edge of having problem. Getting 3050 is far easier and safer with a magnum case.

As to AI gains, all my testing showed that at equal pressure you get 1 for 4 in the 06 cases little more in the 7x57 and less in the 308. So best you are looking at from the AI is 1 to 2% or 25-50fps. The large gains were pressure related. One of the highest claimed gainer is the 257R. Those huge claims are usually compared to factory that is loaded around 50,000. Hey 15000psi will give you 150-200fps. But you could save time and money and load the std roberts to 65,000 to begin with.

As to the AI case life. I "believe" that the a custom chamber cut to fit your brass, zero headspace and minimum working of the brass will allow factory brass to live just as long. My son-in-law has my ongoing test case. Years ago I had a rifle chambered with a custom 280 reamer. Made to give min clearance to "soft" Norma brass. My load was around 60,000 (my guess) I loaded the case over 10 times. I believe the last time I reloaded them for him it would make 14. They have been annealed twice and trimmed new and at 10.

I agree the '06 Ackley Improved is only a mild improvement over the standard '06. Playing with Quick Load and keeping everything else equal, there may be an average gain of only 50-70 fps.

This is not worth paying much money for, but if you like the '06 and have gobs of cases you want to use, and you plan to replace your barrel, then a "mild" upgrade to the '06 AI is easy. You can shoot standard ammo with little loss of velocity or accuracy, plus squeeze a bit more performance from the ol'O6.

I have a 300 Win Mag and only get ~200 fps more than an '06, but with more blast, kick, and shorter barrel life. With modern bullets and range finders, this increase has little practical value when hunting North America. I see little need, these days, for a 300 RUM. In fact, the super accurate .308 is enough, when used by a first-rate hunter and shooter.

I own other AIs. The 257 AI is a real improvement over the 257, with performance very close to the 25'06. My 25'06 AI is way overbore, and I don't recommend it over the standard 25'06 or 257 AI - that is, unless some new super slow burning, high energy powder comes along (maybe VvN570).

I have a 280 AI, and I like it - just about perfect bore for 7 mm IMO. I just got a 375 H&H AI ("375 Weatherby"), and it's a significant improvement over the 375 H&H. I haven't shot it yet. It's likely more than I can handle, but fun anyway.

Regards, AIU