Which setup produces a better round?

Unless you are heavy into Benchrest I doubt you could see a difference.

The same. Wilson dies aren't anymore precise than Redding. Neil Jones dies are, however.

In line arbor presses produce more concentric ammunition than "normal " presses. As good as Redding dies are, any custom dies, including Wilson, are more precise than Redding.

I only use my Sinclair arbor press and Wilson dies on 6mm and smaller cartridges. For the tiniest groups, it's the only way. However, the shooter's ability to dope the wind probably makes more difference downrange than the difference in two quality made dies.

One place where a threaded die has an advantage over a chamber die is that it is quite a bit easier to move the shoulder back a thou. or two. What some of the B.R. guys like, including myself, is to chamber a Newlon die blank with the same reamer that the guns chamber was done with. I have a half dozen or so dies that I made up this way and have had excellant luck with all of them. I do like a chamber die as a seater, but I also make this type of die up using the chamber reamer. If you had your barrel chambered by a gunsmith that will also make dies up, I think it is the way to do it. There are probably as many opinions on this as there are shooters, so it really boils down to finding something that works for you.
I noticed that one gentleman refered to Wilson as a custom die, they are a production die, and made up to accomodate just about any of the ctgs. that they are made up for. What ctg. are you looking for a die for. I have a few Wilson dies that I no longer use and if you can use any of them you are welcome to the set you need. I think I can still find them. Good luck, and remember that a Sinclair type press will not push the shoulder back, this can be an important feature, that has to be taken care of as the brass gets a bit longer in the shoulder. As far as jones dies go, I am of the opposite opinion of them than Ralph is. I have found them to be less concentric than most of the other dies that I have used, and this is after making up a chamber cast of the die, and micing it as closely as possible. The jones die also requires a sizing bushing that is made spacificly for the die, afeature that I do not particularly like. Just my opinion, everyone has one and theirs are just as worthy of consideration as mine.

The wilson die can be ordered as a blank. Mine were reamed with the chamber reamer. The only way to truely fit either the wilson or the redding comp is to ream the blank or the sleeve with the same reamer. There is NO one size fits all die. The only way to ensure it, is the same reamer. My redding comp die sleeve for my 6.5x55AI was punched by the reamer and makes runout of under .001"

Just, did you have Redding ream your die for you?

Curious how the chamber die will cut a resizing die? Are you neck sizing only?

It is impossable to cut a F.L. resizing die with the reamer that was used to cut the chamber. I am not sure just how much smaller a F.L. die is, but have heard 1 to 3 thou. mentioned. A lot of the gunsmiths have a pair of reamers ground, making it possible for them to produce a F.L. die for customers. I only chamber for myself, and therefore have not invested in one. I do not load very heavily and have a couple of hundred 30X47 cases that have been loaded upward of 25 times, never having the shoulders bumped or been F.L. resized. These are shot in a barrel that has a .332 neck and turned to a loaded ctg. neck dia. of approx. .331. The neck is worked very little, and the body not at all other than the expansion and contraction of the brass when fired. A tight fitting neck is needed to do this, plus the chamber itself is cut quite tight. Recently I have heard quite a few B.R. shooters say that they are either F.L. resizing, or thinking of it. A lot of the guys that are doing it are saying that accuracy is every bit as good as neck sizing. I can not speak from experience as I have not tried it. I do have one F.L. sizing die that I had made up, before I started doing my own, by the gentleman that built the gun. I tried this die on brass from another chamber and it really threw out the concentricity, I think that I was sizing the brass way too much. There are a few people that say they can make up a F.L. die if you send them 3 or 4 fired cases from the gun that you want the die for. I am not sure how they do this, but know of a few guys that have had it done, and have heard no complaints as of yet. There was a thread on one of the sites recently, that was talking about the possibility of having a neck sizing die plated with titanium nitride, making it very wear resistant along with decreasing the interior size enough to have it become a F.L. die. Again I plead ignorance on the subject, but it is something to think about.

When I reloaded my 308,I always had better accuracy right after I resized with that Redding body die than when I was shooting fireformed.I remember continous 5 shot half inch groups at 200 yds when I would resize.Whe I let it go without resizing there was still good groups but slightly less so.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Which setup produces a better round?

It depends on whether you're talking about sizing or seating.

For sizing I prefer "screw-in" dies, specifically a Redding body die/Lee collet die combo that lets me really tailor the case to my chamber with minimal runout.

But for seating I haven't found anything that beats the Wilson dies for consistency and minimal runout. I've heard the in-line Forster dies work as well, I just don't have any experience with them.

Shootaway, if your gun is shooting that well you should give competative B.R. a try. You would win your share.

I am lucky to live or stay just down the street from a shooting range.I have frequented it over a hundred times in the past years.I was thinking of getting into competitive shooting just so I can use their 1000 yd range.I stopped shooting for 3 yrs now,mostly because reloading took up hours of the week,and although I love shooting,I also love other things.At present I decided to develop a super hunting load for a rebarreled rifle.

I've posted this before but here's a picture of a decent one hole group (3 shots) that I got with a Rockchucker press from RCBS, and Redding competition dies. I'm not overly convinced that any one component makes a substantial difference. I think it is repetitive, consistent technique. I also believe that if you get rid of the expander button, overall your groups will have better, more consistant neck tension with reduced runout to near zero.

Is that a round of the big 7(7mmremmag)?

yes.

I use both the Redding NS bushing dies and the Wilson NS knock out dies. I find the Wilson does a bit better at holding down my runout. If I'm full length sizing I use the Redding body die then the neck sizer. Of course getting the die made at the same time as the barrel, with the same reamer is ideal, but most of us rarely have that option. I specially lke the Wilson seater. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

b beyer, I have my gunsmith ream the sleeve of the competition redding die. Mine was a 6.5x55 that was changed to 6.5x55AI. The wilson was cut with the reamer from the chamber (which is whi I have to use die wax when seating just to get the case out of the die). The Newlon Precision die bodies are shipped as bushing dies and are BLANKS for your gunsmith to punch with the same reamer. This approach eliminates all the BS. Same die dimension as chamber dimension makes perfect ammo.

JustC, I know what the Newlon dies are, I have chambered quite a few of them. What I am really curious about is the reaming of the Redding sleeve. Do you start out with a neck sizer or a F.L. sizer in the dies that your gunsmith redid for you. If he chambered the Redding die with the chamber reamer, there should be no reason to have to lube them before either sizing or seating. JUst curious, Thanks

b beyer, the Wilson dies were the ones that I needed wax in. I told him I wanted it TIGHT with runout at NILL. And, that was what he gave me,..a very tight die (seating die). The K&M arbor press, when seating the pill also forces the expansion ring into the die at the base. I use the body die to just bump the expansion ring .001" in, and it comes out with just a tad of pressure to the rim.

The reddings, he ordered in the parent caliber with the non-ackley taper allowing him to open it up with the same reamer to the same size of the chamber body. The loads with lapua brass I seat in that die are .001" at worst. I have very few dies that give that kind of performance and will have him do the same with my future projects. The NK and seater were done in my 6.5x55AI set (originaly 6.5x55) and they are superb in the finished product. HTH

When you guys get blank dies formed with the reamers that did your barrel chamber,are those the neck sizing dies or the bullet seating dies?Have you noticed smaller group sizes doing it this way?Smaller group sizes compared to using Wison or Redding competition dies?

Shoot, I do both the sizer[nk] and seater with the chamber reamer, I have used a few of the blank Wilsons, but most of the time I make up the die from scratch out of stainless. I have used very few of the Redding or Wilson factory dies, and am hesitant to comment on the job that they do, although I hear that they are very good. I am quite surprised that someone is re reaming any of the Redding dies, as I would have thought that the sleeve would be hardened, and impossible to ream. Learn something new every day I guess. A good way to start making a die out of stainless is to start with a piece of barrel that was cut off in the process of chambering and crowning it.

bob,..although I am no gunsmith, mine leads me to beleive that the sleeve is easy to ream,...not like a hardened die body. But I am not the gunsmith. He has refused to chamber my LW50 barrel blank unless I purchase a new reamer,..so the sleeve must be soft enough since he has no issue with that. HTH

Just C, The only reason that I can think of for him wanting you to buy a reamer would be that he doesnot have the ctg. that you want. I am only thinking out loud about the Redding dies, just about all the F.L. dies are hardened, while neck dies have no reason to be hard. Your gunsmith certainly knows what he is doing [or should]. It can be a good idea to have your own reamer anyway, if you want a new barrel at any time you will be able to have one reamed that has the same dimentions all the way around. A few of my friends that do not do their own work have purchased a reamer and have the gunsmith use it whenever a new barrel is needed. What ctg. do you want your barrel chambered in? There used to be a couple of places that you could rent a reamer for fairly little money, I can not remember just who they are but a search on the computer should turn them up, if they are still in buisness. Good luck with your project however you go. Let me know how you make out.

b beyer,what type/brand of reamer do you recommend?I spoke briefly to a gunsmith about reaming a blank,and he did not sound enthusiastic about the idea.He said something was not long enough.Is this a common thing among benchrest or high power shooters-that is reaming their dies?

Just, I use J.G.S. reamers out in Oragon, I think they are as good as any of them and better than a lot. Their ph. no. is541 267 4331, they are great people to deal with and will tell you just what is up with what you want to do. Ask for Carol and tell her Bob Beyer told you to call. There are a couple of reamer grinders out there that are also very good from what I hear. I have no idea what the gentleman that says something is not long enough is talking about, any of the blanks that I have done are just as long as a normal die. If he can cut a barrel chamber then he should be able to cut the same chamber in a die. I imagine that he is cutting the threads for you at the same time, as this is the way to be sure that the chamber and threads are concentric. In other words you really are putting yourself at a disadvantage if you take the barrel out of the lathe between doing the chamber and threads. Not trying to put anyone down, but has this guy chambered and threaded meny barrels in the past. There are too meny guys around that are really good to take a chance on someone that you are not sure of. If I am not being too nosy, how much is he talking about charging you for the completed barrel. The cost should be about 130 to 150 bucks the last I knew, if he is much more than that he is too high, if a lot less he more than likely does not know what he is doing. This guy may be the best there is, I am really not trying to speak ill of him, just nosy to be able to answer your question a little better. There are a couple of good gunsmiths in Canada, one imparticular, and I can't think of his mane right now. Have you looked into the paperwork in sending a barrel to the states for work, I hear some guys say no problem and others say it is a tough deal. I will try and find out the name of this guy that I am thinking of and let you know if you are interested. Having work done locally is great but you do not want to sacrifice quality for the convience. I should be able to find out tonite and I will try and get back to you.

b beyer,..the reputation for the steel in the LW50 blanks being soooo hard is why he does not wish to chamber it. I have been told that slowing down the lathe speed and using a different or more of a certain lubricant (can't remember) will do it. He is particular about his reamers and their sharpness, so I have to go with what he says. I was thinking of something like a 300RSAUM improved. The blank is a TON of metal at 34" and 1.450" diameter

Do you do anything different when working with LW50 stainless blanks? Thanks

Just, I am sorry that I can't help you but I have never done one of the LW barrels. My experience has been limited to Shilen, Hart, Lilja, and Kreiger. I have heard guys on this site say that the steel in the LW barrels is tough stuff. I would imagine that you can find someone that will chamber the blank for you, and make up a die at the same time. You are not kidding when you say that the blank is a lot of steel, it sounds like something that a benchrest shooter would put on a rail gun
Everyone that I know of is very particular about their equipment and tools, but they are going to have to be sharpened sometime. Maybe it is not a bad idea for you to invest in a reamer although they are not exactly cheap. J.G.S. gets about 180 bucks for their reamers with a live pilot, but it is something that you will have for as long as you want it. I do not know how the LW barrel steel will treat a reamer, but I can get 8 or 9 barrels out of one before it should be sharpened. Actually more than that because for every barrel that I do I normally do a die for it. Sorry that I can't be of more help to you, but I certainly wish you the best of luck with your project. Anything I might be able to do to help you out give me a shout.

Bob,..I'll keep that in mind and thanks for the offer. I think the "too long" comment was the member who posted after me??

I want to say that when Mike does my barrels it is right around $150 for chamber, thread, and crown. He does it all in one set-up,..NO removing from the lathe (I wouldn't deal with him if he were one to try that).

Woody at lothar walther told me to slow the lathe to 300rpm and use a FINER cutting oil/lube and it wouldn't hurt the reamer. I would simply buy the reamer and depending on how the caliber acted during testing, I could alwasy take a few dollars loss and re-sell it with only 1 chamber and 1 set of dies on it.

I don't know whether ot build a heavy gun, or have this blank contoured down?? what do you think? can you cut it down to say a 1.300-1.000" at the muzzle at maybe 33" finished? This was one of the Balckstar Accumax II barrels that went for $550 just for the blank I thought about selling it, but then again I only have about what a normal blank would cost anyway in it, so I am trying to determine whether to trim it up or re-sell it and buy another blank.

Thanks

Just, I have had a couple of barrels recontured by Hart Barrels and they shoot quite well. When I first got into B.R. I shot a heavy gun and have a bunch of barrels made up for the guns. Not long after, I got into HBR shooting, that use a lot lighter barrel and had a couple of my better barrels redone to use in the new class. Before I did I asked, as you are, on the computer and had a few guys tell me that they have had barrels done with no ill effects at all. I am afraid that is all I can say about redoing your barrel. I would not hesitate to have another one done if I could get the conture that I wanted. How long is it possible to finish a barrel with the blank that you have. Most of the barrels that I buy, finish up at about 26 inches max. with quite an increase in price for a longer blank. As an example, for short range BR [100-300] yards, I finish my barrels up at 217/8 in. but don't ask me why, I have no idea. Keep in touch and let me know what you do and how you make out.
As far as selling your barrel, you MAY have a limited number of people that are interested in one of that size. Your gunsmith says to slow the lathe down to 300 RPM, I chamber at a lot slower speed than that in normal S.S. barrels. I use the slowest speed that I can get in back gears, and have very good luck. Take care.

Bob,..this blank should finish at 32" at the least and closer to 33". I had originally thought of this for a extreme range wildcat rifle in the range of 30lbs or so. I just don't know if I will get to the Heavy 1000yd rifle project anytime soon and that is why I have thought of turning it down to make use of it for a 1000yd Light gun tube (17lb max weight limit)

Just, do they advertise that barrel as hand lapped? If they do there is a small section of the muzzel end that should not be used. [2 inches or so]. All of the barrels that I use are lapped and have a hacksaw cut in the muzzle, that is a spot that is the max. that can [should] be used. If I were you I would try and find a barrel maker that will contur and chamber the blank at the same time. I say that I would not hesitate having another barrel recontured, but there are not too meny people that I would let do it. I would call Hart barrels [315-677-9841], Kreiger barrels [262-255-9593], Lilja barrels [406-826-3084] or shilen barrels [972-875-5318] and see if I could not work something out with any of them. I do not know if L.W. chambers or not, I am familiar with them only through this site. If they do, they most certainly have the facilities to contour it also. As you can see, I would not let anyone other then a barrel maker contour a barrel for me. As good as my luck [and other guys] has been having this done, a barrel can also be screwed up pretty well doing it if the outfit does not really know what they are doing. The interior dimentions can change, if not done properly.
Do you happen to know if L.W. does chamber or not? Where it is their barrel, they would more than likely be the first people that I would call. They may even give you a break on the price where they sold you the barrel originally. You could certainly put it in the classifieds first and see if you draw any interest at all. If you decide to do that, a good place to put it would be in the ads at http://www.benchrest.com there could be a guy or two on there thinking about building a rail. Again, I wish I could be more help to you but I am unfamiliar with 1000 yd. shooting in the first place, and also with the particular barrel that you have. Keep me posted on what is going on with it. Take care of yourself, we'll probebly talk again. Where are you located?