I have just reloaded my first centerfire cartridges and have seen my first flattened primer. I'm giddy like a school girl! LOL

Here's the deal. I pulled 62 gr green tip bullets from G.I. issued ammo, dropped powder charges ranging from 24.0 to 24.6 grains, then seated 80 gr Sierra MKs .003 from the lands in my RRA match gun as measured with a Stomy Point guage.

I fired groups with the different loads Tuesday morning and saw nothing out of the ordinary. I liked the way the 24.0 and the 24.6 loads grouped so I rolled a batch of 20 of each. This morning I fired both loads and had flattened primers in 15 of the 20 with 24.0 gr and about half of the 24.6 gr loads. The 24.6 gr loads also showed a slight smearing on the head from the ejector.

I shoot literally 1000s of rounds of G.I. ammo every year and see the ejector smearing mark on the case head on most of the spent brass I find, but have not seen flattened primers.

A few of the guys at the range this morning agree that G.I. ammo uses primers that are a bit on the soft side so I shouldn't worry about anything.

I've read enough of this site to know better than to disregard these observations, but there are a few things that trouble me. Why did the hotter load have a smaller number of flattened primers? Why does issue G.I. ammo frequently show ejector marks without flattening primers? I really like the 24.0 gr loads and would like to use this load for both 80 and 77 gr Sierras. How much lower if at all should I go and try more groups?

Thanks in advance guys.

quote:

A few of the guys at the range this morning agree that G.I. ammo uses primers that are a bit on the soft side

While I am no expert on the current M16 ammo, I suspect that they are no different than previous GI ammo. Both 30-06 and 7.62 Nato GI ammo used harder primers than those used in civilian ammo to lessen the chance of slam firing in rifles that have a floating firing pin.

The M1 Garand and M14 have floating firing pins, as does the M16. I would suspect the primers used in 5.56mm would also be of the harder cup material, as well.

Regards,
hm

I agree with hm1996. I believe the GI primers are harder. After you pulled the 62gr bullets did you resize the cases? If so maybe you have a headspace problem.

I can't make a specific comment without knowing what kind of powder you're using, but I do think 24 grains is a bit much with 80 grain slugs. Something like 22.3-23.5 sounds more realistic.

.003" off the lands is nothing, and in itself might cause pressure problems. My experience has been that increments of .010" are more realistic as meaningful results can be seen on paper targets. With 80 grain Sierras, my AR starts showing pressure signs at 23.3gr when using IMR 4895.

Regarding primers, it seems all unplated primers are less that optimal and I especially dislike the W-W small rifle primer. I've used Federal for years, but will be switching to CCI #419(a mil-spec primer for 5.56 m/m) when the current supply runs out.

quote:

Originally posted by buckshot:
Regarding primers, it seems all unplated primers are less that optimal and I especially dislike the W-W small rifle primer. I've used Federal for years, but will be switching to CCI #419(a mil-spec primer for 5.56 m/m) when the current supply runs out.

Before CCI made the mil-spec primers, most of the gas gun shooters I knew regarded Federal primers as being too soft and opted for CCI primers, which had the reputation for having the hardest cups at that time.

Having seen one match grade M1 wrecked by a slam fire, I would not use anything other than the mil-spec primers in a gas gun, as recommended by buckshot.

That particular incident was caused by insufficient headspace due to "spring back" of work hardened brass after sizing. The dies had been set to produce proper headspace using once fired brass. The shooter used a lot of brass that had been fired several times (probably 7-8), resulting in slightly oversized rounds. The firing pin struck a primer (before Mil-spec primers available) with sufficient force to cause an out-of-battery slam fire.

Special attention to avoid dirty chambers, high primers or oversized rounds is called for in loading for gas guns.

Regards,
hm

I'm using the same powder that came with the load, just re-metering it according to team mates that have done the same thing. The brass is unfired so work hardening can't be the problem. I did not resize. My chamber is a Wylde spec which I believe is slightly oversize compared to standard .223 Rem or NATO 5.56

This gun has up until now not showed any problems with factory loads from Black Hills 55 gr all the way up to Black Hills 80s, including all G.I. ammo. I'll back off a grain and try again. Thanks for all the advice so quickly.

Bill:

Buckshot's right.

You went up 20grs or close on bullet wt. You've gotta cut back on the powder charge!!

Try ten at 20, 21, 22 & 23gr and see which work the best.

Far as marks on brass in AR's, from the brass I've picked up at the range that's as common as flies on shit.
Many also have a dimple on the side of the case just below the shoulder too. I don't worry about that kind of thing. Just resize everything everytime and get to loading. Plus I don't care how many times they've been fired as I also trim every case every time because I mix brass and load so many there's no way I could seperate that many. I don't have storage space enough. So I only have three or four BUCKETs.

dirty/fired, sized & cleaned, primed, loaded.

Just sealed an extra two gallon bucket of 55grs for prairie doggin ammo for later when I run out and need more.

Anytime you flatten primers, STOP shooting til you find out why. In this case it was obvious. Any left over, pull 'em down and start over. Whole lot cheaper and safer than gun damage, or face damage to you, or a by stander.

Wish you well, let us know what you find. But, cut back more than just one grain, do it as I suggest here and you'll find one that works just right and they'll all fire ok.

George

quote:

Taurus Bill: The brass is unfired so work hardening can't be the problem.

.



TB: Sorry, didn't mean to confuse the issue with the work hardened brass thing. This is a separate issue that many gas gun shooters are not aware of, however. Since you are seating so close to rifling, thought you should be aware of the problems insufficient headspace can cause.

quote:

georgeld: Just resize everything everytime and get to loading. Plus I don't care how many times they've been fired as I also trim every case every time.

But, cut back more than just one grain

Good advice; should correct the problem.

Regards,
hm

I realize that .003 is nothing when it comes to bullet seating and that pressure spikes will occur if you're too close. I also understand that increasing bullet weight requires a reduction in powder charge. Factory G.I. ammo has 27.0 gr of powder for the 62 gr bullet, 24.0 is a full 3 gr under that, but alas it's still too much.

I have followed George's advice and loaded 10 rounds of a few different charges, I went in .5 gr increments. I have 21.5 up to 23.5. I hope to shoot these tomorrow morning, I'll post my results.

What I still don't understand is why I didn't see any pressure signs at all on Tuesday with 24.6 and yesterday I got flat primers at only 24.0.

After re-reading HM's post a couple times I now understand why sizing is so important. Thanks to all who've offered help. This forum never lets me down.

Taurus Bill Quote – “What I still don't understand is why I didn't see any pressure signs at all on Tuesday with 24.6 and yesterday I got flat primers at only 24.0.â€

I wondered about that too and that’s why I thought it might have something to do with headspace.

Also you say your .003 off the lands. Did you allow for headspace when determining seating depth? If not you might be in the lands.

Taurus Bill
Earlier you said you were .003" off the lands, but what does that equate to in overall length? I too have the Wylde chamber in my AR, and my 80 Sierra load seated .010" off the lands is 2.4" in length.

Bill:
Couple things again.

Think you're on the right track with half grains, but, in this case don't think you needed to go that far, full gr spacing would be enough to sort. Then to finalize is where the half, or less come's in.

Mostly, this amount of loading detail is more for bench resters, or those that are really particular. When it come's to AR spray type's, what the hell long as they keep firing and don't blow things up????

How long's it been since you compared your scales with at least two others to make damned sure it's perfectly accurate?? Ever? Might be worth getting together with a couple buddies and weigh the same several items on several scales. I'll bet you'll find some disaggrements within those tests.

IF you can't gather scales at one place at once. Weigh and mark half a dozen items that cannot change wts: gotta be solids and best it's not lead so a pc can't be chipped off. Take them to the other scales and weigh/compare your notes. Well worth doing this. also, are you using electronic scales???? IF so: hehe!!

Far as the .003" from lands. That's so close there's no way you can count on every load being within that tight of tolerance. You can't possibly hold it that close UNLESS. You load and fit each cartridge, one at a time. Again, that's bench rester type detail. From your posting, doubt you're concerned with that much detail. am I right??

Concerning the but once when things didn't show up as too hot.
Haven't you ever experienced those times when no matter what you do, EVERYTHING works just right? Shocking, ain't it??
And other times' no matter what you do, NOTHING will work at all.(especially dealing with women!)

I think you may have been suckered into one of those situations that time. Unless you can point/blame it on something in particular, don't fkg worry about it. Water under the bridge. Right?? hehe!!

Keep in mind: every gun, car, trk, person, woman, dog, horse, bear, asshole etc is it's own individual with it's own temperment. Some of us are asshole's and pissed all the time. Which means you just take your chance's dealing with us. The rest?? well, take it from here ok?? haha!

Consider doing some crimping on feed for AR's. IF a slug gets beat back in the case, or comes out in them, things can go wrong in a real hurry and may become expensive at the same speed.

IF you can't have fun, or enjoy doing it. why do it??

Wish you well,

George

Bullet, I'm not quite sure how I would allow for head space. I held my guage in against the shoulder while I slipped the bullet gently back and forth until I felt the lands. I might have a problem with the way I measured, see below.

Well George, you hit it right on the head! Today was a day that nothing went right (at the range or with my girlfriend). I get to my club to sort out my loads and there's a league match going on. I can't shoot at the 200 yard range so I go over to the 100 yard range. I now realize I don't have the right size target to shoot at 100 so I cut the center out of a target and go to tape it up. This is when I find that I don't have any magazines with me. I find one in my truck I put there for just such an occasion and set up to shoot.

My first 2 shots both show the slightest signs of flattening, or do they? I am now completely twisted out of my mind and fully paranoid so now is when I decide to call it quits.

I get home remeasure my chamber and loaded rounds. I found that the bottom land touches the bullet first and leaves quite a long scuff on the bullet if I'm not real careful with my guage.

I started taking loaded rounds and pressing them in to the chamber with a dowel to seat the shoulder in the chamber. If I found a scuff on the bullet I took another round, seated it a bit deeper and repeated the process until I got a clean bullet. The OAL at this point is 2.490". I set my die .010 deeper and reseated all my loads.

Buckshot, you say your OAL is only 2.4, I wonder If I'm doing something wrong or do I have problem with my rifle.

The reason I went in .5 increments was to try and avoid having to find a load using whole grain increments and then have to go back a second time with .5 grain spacing. This way I should find one that works and be happy, but with the luck I'm having I sure won't be holding my breath!

While I'm not looking for .200" groups, this is my NM gun and I do want it to shoot better than I can so I know that those 9s are me and not the gun/load.

As for my scale, I check it with the 20 and 50 gram cal weights at the start and end of each session. I'll bring them to a friend's scale and see how they compare.

Thanks again guys, maybe tomorrow I'll try and shoot them and see what's up.

The saga continues...

Taurus Bill Quote – “I started taking loaded rounds and pressing them in to the chamber with a dowel to seat the shoulder in the chamber. If I found a scuff on the bullet I took another round, seated it a bit deeper and repeated the process until I got a clean bullet. The OAL at this point is 2.490". I set my die .010 deeper and reseated all my loads.â€

I believe your seating depth should be fine, seating by the shoulder should give you an accurate distance from the shoulder to the lands. How much neck tension do you have on your reloads? Are the bullets being held enough to not see setback if you press on them? I’ve never pulled a bullet without resizing the case neck so I’m not sure if not resizing would have a negative effect. If your seating depth is good and your neck tension is good then the only think left that I can think of that would flatten your primers would be too much powder (which you have now reduced). Do you have a chronograph? If not you might think about buying one.

Good luck and let us know your results.

Don't yet have a chrono. Neck tension is pretty far up there, I can't move the bullet at all without using the Hornady collet pulling set up I got for pulling the green tip.

I'm betting that I was up against the lands or even in to them a bit. Now that I set the bullets back a bit farther I'm thinking I have the situation settled. Hopefully I'll know tomorrow.

Bill:

Sounds like you might have a burr in the chamber.
All lands should be even as they are all cut at the same time with the reamer.

Get a piece of soft lead the right size and jamb it into the throat good and tight with a brass rod, tap it a bit with a couple lite taps of a mallet on the rod. Then push it back out from the muzzle. Put some kind of mark on the back end of the slug before you start so you can tell for sure what position any marks are in.

IF you find there's gouge's in that slug, take that and the gun to a smith to have it checked out.

Don't shoot any further than 100yds til you get things figured out.

again, good luck.

George

I may have missed it, but......You are pulling the ball bullets and seating Sierra's. I don't remember reading where you are sizing the cases before seating the new bullets.

This can result in varying neck tension and can even allow movement of the bullet when chambered. As previously stated, .003" is very little bullet jump and normally the closer to the lands, the higher the pressure. If bullet is being pushed back into case on chambering, pressure would drop. Also possible, is that the bullet could slip forward from inertia when bolt slams home, as it does with a gas gun.
This might help explain why pressure signs were present on some lighter loads...?

When I change a bullet, I always neck size the case before seating the new bullet.

quote:

I found that the bottom land touches the bullet first and leaves quite a long scuff on the bullet if I'm not real careful with my guage.

As for the lands marking the bullet on the bottom first, a couple of possibilities come to mind.

Bullet concentricity. You might take one of your reloaded rounds and chamber it once, then rotate 180 degrees and re-chamber to see if it is the ammo or the lands that are the culprit.

Throat erosion. You mentioned you shoot thousands of rounds of GI ammo a year. How many rounds do you have throught this barrel? While the lands are, indeed cut evenly, they may not wear evenly. Throat erosion could account for the "long" land, if indeed that is found to be the case.

Regards,
hm

This has been an interesting thread.
Problem is flattened primers on some loads not dependent on powder charge. Using unknown powder with unfired cases that the neck wasn’t resized after pulling bullets with a questionable seating depth in a rifle with an unknown amount of barrel erosion with no chronograph info.

1 – To much powder. But why would you only see flattened primers on some loads?

2 – Neck tension. Could explain No 1

3 – Seating depth. No allowance for headspace (possibly into the lands) combined with different amounts of neck tension.

4 – Barrel erosion. Could explain not seeing marks from the lands all the way around the bullet. Also difference in seating depths as listed by buckshot.

Fix –

1 – reduce powder (already done)

2 – Resize neck after pulling bullets (still questionable)

3 – Seating depth (fixed )

4 – Barrel erosion (we don’t know)

The rifle is a new RRA national match, less than 300 rounds through it. I've been a combat rifleman for 6 years and with the Army and Air National Guard All Guard team for 2 years. I've just broken on to the service rifle side of shooting.

The neck tension is plenty tight. I've remeasured OAL after chambering and extracting rounds. There is absolutely no bullet movement.

I tried to shoot them again today but the 21.5 gr loads looked again like they were flattening out a bit even after I seated the bullets lower. I'm wondering if I might be calling a primer flat that isn't.

http://www.radomski.us/njhp/cart_tech.htm
This link shows a few pics of progressively higher pressure signs and I'm about where the second from bottom shows.

I've spent the last 30 minutes measuring the throat yet again and now I'm feeling something different than the last two times. Some bullets have a nice crisp ring almost all the way around about .040" from the neck. I tried a bullet in backwards and got the same thing right at the shoulder where the boat tail taper starts. I think previously I was pushing the bullet into the lands too hard.

The link also shows that a Wylde chamber has an OAL of 2.475 when using a SMK 80 gr bullet.

I'm figuring that I'll go deeper with the bullets again to an OAL of 2.465 and try again.

Thanks once again for your help and your patience! Newbies would be lost with out all of you.

Taurus Bill

Have you tried taking a black marker and coloring your bullet (assuming naked bullets)? Makes seeing the land marks easy. This is also where a chronograph would help too. Even if you’re into the lands your pressure still could be ok. Knowing bullet speed would help determine pressure. Some of the guys I know shooting service rifle seat their 80’s into the lands. You might check out this site –

http://www.nationalmatch.us/forums/index.php?

Good luck and be safe.

Bill,

I have no profound advice concerning your loads , never tried to do " Mexican Match " style ammo.

IMHO firing the 62 Gr. as is, and reloading the brass would be likely to give better results . At the price of the 80's I have been using I would make sure all my other components were up to snuff before shoving an expensive bullet into the case.

Just .02, and not a criticism of your loading.

Oh , and BTW the GI primers ARE harder.
Even harder than WSR's ( which is what I use ).



Travis F.

Bill:

Ok, good link. I never knew there were varying angle's and other dimentions for .223's. Other than every reamer is some different due to wear and how it was ground. To grind them differently, is news to me. So I learned things by reading this.

From the looks of the primers shown therein. You say yours are close to the second from bottom.

IF that's so, I wouldn't worry about it. Just load and shoot 'em. I think from this, you're being concerned about trivial stuff.

When my primers are flattened. The rounded edge's have fully filled the hole in the case head. They look more like a top hat's brim when taken out and turned over. When that happens, there's no question about the load being too hot.

Good luck, doubt I'll be back on this one.

George

Travis, I'd love to completely do all my own reloading but right now all I have to buy is bullets. Add to that powder, primers and all the equipment needed to size and trim...ect. I'm also deployed 4 months a year.

Green tip is free and what I'm trying to do is popular among the military folks I shoot with. Being it's my first attempt with metalic cartridges, the less I have to deal with the better off I'll be, at least for now. Look at all the fuss I'm making over a few slightly flat primers! If I were preping my own brass you'd all be ready to ban me from the forum. LOL

George, thanks for all your input. Can't tell you thanks enough.

Bill,

" Free " is one of my favorite words.


Travis F.

Well, here's the final results. The bottom line is that my primers aren't as flat as I was thinking. I've been to a few reputable gun dealers and they've unanimously said that I should be fine right where I've been. Each person I've talked to has asked me the same things you all did, and have given the same advice. If I could have figured out how to post the pictures I took, we would have figured this out sooner.

I have learned an awful lot over the past week or two. You guys are the greatest, thanks again for the help.

If you're at Camp Perry this year and see the NY National Guard, stop by and say hello.

Bill:
Good luck @ Perry this summer.

Keep 'em in the X, hold tight, jerk right!

Regards,
hm