A couple years ago, I acquired a .500 Hannibal with ~130 rounds of A-Square ammo in wallets, and RCBS dies. ~90 rounds were loaded with 707-grain Monolithic Solids, 20 700-grain Dead-tough soft points, and 20 600-grain Lion Load soft points. That's where the mystery starts.

When I got around to shooting it a year or so ago (with iron sights), the first shot failed to connect with the target at 100 yards. Odd, but we thought perhaps it had gone high, so I aimed lower. Another miss. And another. Finally we saw a furrow in the grass marking the passage of a bullet... about 10 yards in front of the target. I flipped up the 200 yard leaf and aimed for the very top of the sand box, and finally put one on paper. The next shot had considerably more "oomph" than the last several, and once again, missed the target.

Suffice it to say that I was getting erratic performance from the ammunition, and after reading "Any Shot You Want" (the A-Square reloading manual) and reading about early .458 Winchester powder clumping and producing erratic results, I decided to pull a few of rounds apart and find out what was going on.

Art Alphin was a firm believer in compressed powder charges, and I'm guessing the powder simply degraded over time and fused together under the pressure of being compressed. It was basically solid in the shells and had to be gouged out bit by bit. I pulled a few more bullets and all of those cartridges were identical with tightly clumped powder. Only the powder in the Lion Load cartridges poured freely once the bullet was pulled, but I decided to pull all of the bullets and start fresh.

So that's when I realized that I had two different case profiles... The Lion Load cartridges, which are head stamped .500 A-Square, have the crisp shoulder and SAAMI dimensions listed in the A-Square manual. The older .460 Weatherby head stamped brass (indicating that it was probably 1978-1982 manufacture) has a much softer profile, as if it had only been necked up from .458 and hadn't been fire formed. And yet, I'd fired some of them in my rifle and the cartridge profile didn't change... odd.

So I ran all of the cartridges through the resizing die and the Weatherby cartridges cycled easily without sticking and did not change profile. The .500 A-square stamped cartridges were much tighter and eventually some stuck in the die, even with case lube, resulting in a broken shell holder. And another broken shell holder. And eventually full-out war with a punch to remove the stuck shell from the die.

Which leads me to my questions...

1. If the Weatherby cases do not match the SAAMI dimensions of the .500 A-square, why are they not fire forming in my rifle to match that profile, and yet BOTH cases chamber easily in my rifle regardless of the difference in the position of the shoulder?

Shouldn't the sharp shouldered cases fail to chamber, or shouldn't the slope shouldered cases fire form?

2. After thoroughly cleaning and polishing the brass, I plan to reload the 120 cases I was able to successfully resize, but with 570-grain bullets that are more readily available.

My assumption is that if I start mid-way through the range of powder weights listed for the 600-grain bullets in the A-Square manual and work up that I'll be fine... but what about reloading the 707-grain Monolithic Solids?

There is no load data for the 700+ grain bullets in the A-Square manual or on the Internet, that I could find. What's a good rule of thumb for a starting point with the same powders, or is there one?

Any help greatly appreciated.

did you check here? may be able to figure out a starting load
http://www.accuratereloading.com/500as.html

Thanks for the link! That should be good enough for a starting load. The data below is just a copy of what's in the A2 manual.

[URL]http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?metallicid=2785&caliber=.50&caliberid=31&header=.50 Caliber Reloading Data[/URL]

Since none of the A2 "triad" bullets are available any longer, I was hoping someone had some load data for Woodleigh, Barnes, or Hornady 570-gr. bullets.

Still looking for advice on the difference in the cases. The .500 A-Square head stamped case is on the left, the .460 Weatherby head stamped case in on the right. It looks like it was expanded to .510, but not fire formed... and yet it was fired in my rifle.

If the chamber matched the right case, the left case should not chamber because the shoulder is farther forward, and yet it did.

If the chamber matches the left case, the right case would chamber, but should fire form to the dimensions of the case on the left after firing. Right? That didn't happen.

Is it possible that the erratic ignition caused by the clumped powder failed to generate enough pressure to fire form the cases?

I'm guessing that's probably the answer, but was hoping someone with more experience could confirm. From what I've read about fire forming cases, very little powder is required behind the filler and plug.

Thanks!

Isn't there any signs of case expansion? It looks as if the neck has expanded, but how much from an unfired case?
Why don't you try a fireforming load of a very fast pistol/shotgun powder and a twist of tissue stuffed into the neck? This is how I fireform my 375 Weatherby brass from H+H brass. Also use this method for my AI cases too.
I'm just as confused as you, it makes no sense other than there wasn't sufficient pressure to expand the case. When I first started fireforming brass for wildcats with pistol powders, the first few you start low to get confident, these would barely expand, and in fact came out looking very strange indeed. Expansion at the base, but no where else.

Cheers.

Do you have a chronograph?

It will be key to developing good loads and perhaps even solving this mystery. Those Weatherby cases should be fire forming. Hard to figure. The only thing I can imagine is extreme low pressure, so low that the rounds developed insufficient pressure even to fire form the brass.

I shoot 570 grain Barnes bullets and 600 grain Woodleighs in my .500 A2.

I use H4350 and RL 15 powders, with the latter being preferred.

You can start with 115 grains of H4350, or 100 grains of RL 15 and work up.

But get a chronograph if you don't have one. It's an essential tool for this kind of thing.

Although you might have shot the hell out of a chronograph if you had used one with those A-Square factory loads!

Were they loaded with spherical powder?

Odd thing.

Thanks Guys. I do have a chronograph, but we didn't use it on the day I shot the .500 with the factory ammo. Now that I've pulled all of the bullets and burned up the old powder, there's no telling what velocity I was getting. For a 700 grain bullet to not make it 100 yards without dropping a couple feet, I'm sure it wasn't exceptionally high.

The bargain I thought I was getting with all the ammo included with the rifle turned out to be only somewhat of a bargain... at least the brass still appears to be good, the bullets are unharmed, and powder is relatively cheap.



I'll make some test loads with H4350 and RL15 (thanks for the tip) and see what happens to the cases. I suspect they'll blow out nicely, but whether the necks will split because the brass is 30+ years old, I don't know. I guess we'll find out.

Never having fire formed brass before (never having had a rifle before that required it) I didn't expect the cases to change dimension, because I wasn't aware that they weren't already completely formed. I guess when A2 started loading in the late 70s, they must have taken them through the first operation of necking up, but then left it to their rifles to complete the job.

This is my Hannibal. I think someone got tired of the "Coil Chek" stock and restocked it at some point, or at least reshaped it, and checkered it. I'm happy with the rifle, except that it wasn't tapped for scope mounts. I'm fixing that shortcoming this weekend.

At least you have plenty of brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
At least you have plenty of brass.

This is true.

For what it is worth it is usually advised to keep cases used for cast bullet shooting separate from cases used for full power jacketed bullet loads.

I suspect that this is because shooting low pressure loads somehow can alter the head space of the cases maybe because many just FL resize possibly taking the shoulder back when doing so and low pressure cast loads will not blow the shoulder forward again. If then loading these 'cast bullet' cases with full power loads there could be instances of incipient case head separation.

In summary, low pressure loads for whatever reason may not blow shoulders forward to fire-form cases.

quote:

Originally posted by jlabreck7316:
Thanks Guys. I do have a chronograph, but we didn't use it on the day I shot the .500 with the factory ammo.

sounds like you might have shot the chrony anyways.

Really strange. I had a Hannibal in .500A2 that I recently sold to Biebs. The rifle came with some A2 ammo. I found the A2 ammo to be very hot. So hot as a matter of fact that once it locked up the action and we had to hammer the bolt open. The one thing I feel confident in saying is that A2 ammo was crap from a QC standpoint. I told Biebs, I would pull all the bullets, resize and reload them. I would give you the same advice. Little wonder that A2 is no longer among the living.

Eagle27 - Thanks for the advice, but I don't shoot cast bullets, and these were SUPPOSED to be full power loads.

Delloro - You're probably right. LOL

MJines - I'd have to agree with your statement about A2 quality control. I didn't bother to weigh the charges coming out of the shells I disassembled, but if I had, I wonder how consistent they would have been.

I pulled everything, and resized 120 shells to experiment with. Now I just need to call CH4D about some new dies. The RCBS dies that came with the rifle were in pretty sad shape.

The rifle is getting drilled for scope mounts. I'm assuming standard Remington Model 700 mounts are what people typically use for mounting on the receiver. Anyone know?

How bad are those RCBS dies? If they're lightly rusted, you can polish them with some 0000 steel wool wrapped around a chamber mop and plenty of WD-40 in a drill press.
Unsure what brand of bases you require for that rifle.
I have an idea so you don't lose any cases, try annealing them AFTER you have sized them, it may prevent any neck cracks from occurring when you fireform them.
Nice looking rifle, BTW.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by jlabreck7316:
Eagle27 - Thanks for the advice, but I don't shoot cast bullets, and these were SUPPOSED to be full power loads.

Yep knew you were on full power loads and not cast, was just using the published info on cast bullet loading to 'prove' that low pressure can be responsible for altering the head-spacing of fired cases. The advice from the likes of Lyman is to keep cases used for cast bullet loads separate from normal jacketed loads, all due to low pressures.

As suggested by other posters the problems you are having with your cases seem to be due to low pressure but nobody can say for sure.

Hope you solve the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
How bad are those RCBS dies? If they're lightly rusted, you can polish them with some 0000 steel wool wrapped around a chamber mop and plenty of WD-40 in a drill press.

They were very lightly rusted/pitted, more cosmetic than anything, but now they're very lightly broken because the expander bell remained in the last case stuck in the resizing die and stripped the threads of the decapping rod.

The replacement parts from RCBS are expensive enough that the cost of a new die set from CH4D looks attractive, and since I have CH4D dies for my .550 Magnum and need a set for my .510-505 Gibbs, I figured I'd just order a set for the .500 A-Square while I was at it.

quote:

I have an idea so you don't lose any cases, try annealing them AFTER you have sized them, it may prevent any neck cracks from occurring when you fireform them.

That's a great idea. Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
As suggested by other posters the problems you are having with your cases seem to be due to low pressure but nobody can say for sure.

Hope you solve the problem.

Thanks. I'm sure it's probably as simple as firing full-house loads in those cases. I'm more surprised that they left A-Square in that state, leaving the final fire forming up to the customer.