I have always found that I shoot much better groups (with sporter weight rifles) from a bench by shooting quickly (no "lingering" with the crosshairs) and by "slapping" the trigger in much the same way I do when shotgunning. When I say much better, I mean perhaps 3-times better. I was experimenting again with this today at the range with my 6.5x57. When aiming very deliberately and focusing on trigger squeeze, my 5-shot groups came is at 1.5MOA; switching to the "shoot quick" method, the 5-shot groups shrunk to about 0.6MOA. This has always been a superior way to shoot for me (again, with sporter weight rifles). Anyone else like this, or is this some strange quirk I've developed?

Sounds like your triggers are too heavy, too creepy, or both.

3lbs (professionally done), no detectable creep. I don't want to go much lighter as these are hunting rifles, not target rifles. Gloves, frozen fingers, you know the scene...

could be that the way you hold the rifle when you squeeze the trigger is causeing you to open the groups.
Could be that when you are thinking squeezing the trigger you are flinching at the last moment of the shot opening the groups I so not think it is the rifle. One that can shoot tight groups can shoot tight groups.

I would recommend that you get some one with a decent video camera to tape you doing the differant shooting. I use one with my students It is amazing what one sees on tape over what one sees even standing next to them. Plus it is a lot easier to convince a student that they have a flinch when they see them selfs on tape then just telling them.

BTW, this is not a new development, I've shot this way as long as I can remember, and it doesn't seem to affect accuracy - by that I mean the quick approach delivers extremely consistent and very acceptable results (IMHO) for featherweight/sporter rifles.

You know, if you're geting satisfactory groups, great. But a myth it ain't. The idea is that you shouldn't be "calling" the shot, but rather just holding the sight picture as the trigger comes back, with as little movement as possible. Most people find that when they see what they want and "go" for the trigger, it changes things. By going slowly they can train their grip to remain consistent through the squeeze, isolate the trigger finger, and avoid flinching by not saying "now!" but instead being surprised by the break. I've had a lot of growth by using these ideas, in rifle and pistol, benched and freehand. You end up doing it in a pretty short amount of time, but the idea never changes; still not trying to line things up and get the trigger back before it moves, rather just suspending the sight picture long enough to do the squeeze part (which can be pretty fast once the nervous system is trained.)
In the end, though, the point is to hit what you're aiming for, so if it works, don't fix it.

TRIGGER PULL .. (off hand) I have found that the best system for me is to have the trigger adjusted to be "light" about 2-3 lbs, with no appreciable travel... and then have mental timing to have the gun go off when the sights are on target .. I do this by NOT placing my finger on the trigger until the sights are on target .. then, (hold breath) move the sights to the 10X ring and touch the trigger .. easily, all in one motion ... boom I know guys that use 2 stage triggers and work with a sustained squeeze where added pressure is applied every time the sights are on the 10x, and then the release is a surprise .. I guess what works for one doesn't always work for another ..

from an old pistol coachs view I believe that you are not at all unusual. Most poeple shoot best in timed fire and do their worst in slow fire. It takes many year and rounds to really achieve top grade slow fire. Your mescles and heart beat affect your point of aim and concentration for a longer time with slow fire, and it takes lots of practice to know when on the figure 8 point to start the squeeze

I can shoot any trigger with a little getting used to...I have what I call a controlled flinch when hunting...

Off the bench I shoot fast enough but I sure don't slap the trigger...Hunting of bench shooting requires a very smooth controled pull on the trigger...it can be fast but it must be smooth.

Do a ton of dry firing! When you are looking through the sights, move your trigger finger straight back. (This movement can be quite fast.) If your sights move at ALL at the drop of the striker, that is the sign of a poor trigger squeze. Keep practicing. You will eventually find that a good squeeze is indeed possible and in the process, your scores will soar.

quote:

Originally posted by 9.3x62:
3lbs (professionally done), no detectable creep. I don't want to go much lighter as these are hunting rifles, not target rifles. Gloves, frozen fingers, you know the scene...

Gotcha. I'm afraid I am not much help with bench shooting technique because once I sight the rifle in, I do all my load development (all my shooting, in fact) from positions using a sling for support.

I also have to add, a finely adjusted two stage trigger, with about 2 1/2 lbs on the first stage, 1 lb on the second, no creep, and a decent amount of overtravel after the shot is a thing of beauty.

Once one has tasted an exquisite trigger like the Anschutz match trigger, it's hard to go back to single stage triggers.

Hello,
Trigger control is probably more important than whether you have a top notch barrel, well fitting stock, highest quality scope (if you shoot optics,)etc.for the simple reason it is the last act prior to the launch of the bullet itself. It is the trigger aferall! All of the other items are obviously important, but a correct trigger release is critical to accurate shooting. An old saying for trigger action was known as "dragging wood..." meaning that the trigger finger was sliding rearward against the stock when pulling the trigger and that will definitely throw you off and a lot of people do it. Right hand shooters will tend to place the shot to the right when doing this and lefty's the opposite of course. It is a bad habit and usually once it is shown, people correct quickly. Pull straight back and you can either develop the skill of coming all the way through until ignition or take up the slack and "break" the shot at the selected moment. Both work, but master whichever one works for you. For those triggers in the 1 lb. class, not for sporting or hunting use, most will tell you to use forward pad of trigger finger, but for typical tuned 2.5-3.5 lb. sporting trigger, use the trigger finger joint seam as a "weld point" or "go to" point to always place the finger that same spot each and every time.

I have always heard the topic of suprise when pulling the trigger and have to say I know exactly when the trigger is going to release the shot for if the sight picture is not what I want, do not want it going off, but the act of trigger pull is a disciplined muscle/eye/brain response and perhaps a shortcoming in my own shooting. Too old to change now.

Someone mentioned about dry firing and that is a must to become skilled with a given trigger and marksmanship. Hard to do, but go to the range, dry fire 4-5 times, pretend shooting if you will, fire once. Saves ammo and also teaches you trigger control as well as familiarity with the rifle. Once you have done this plus the dry firing at home, safety first!!, your marksmanship will greatly improve. Just a few suggestions.
Hold'm and Squeez'm!!
Favor Center!!
dsiteman

dsiteman, you don't have it wrong no matter how old you are! I used to be an archery maniac, and have many archery titles to my credit, including national level competitions and such, and lot's of top notch archery folks often talked about being surprised when they actually shot--whether with fingers or release. Not me, I knew when I was going to fire my weapon, and that it was on the target at the desired spot at that time.

Holding steady and being certain you have a good site picture is obviously correct, but being totally surprised when your rifle/bow goes off is silly IMO. I think being surprised when your weapon fires is akin to shooting something you aren't aiming at. I know this, I shoot plenty of tight groups at yardages out to 300 yards, using various shooting styles, i.e. off the bench, sitting, prone, standing, standing with sticks, off of my daypack, so I must be real lucky, or the style you described works pretty well for at least one other guy.


Regards--D.

9.3, IMHO if you are getting 3x larger groups when squeezing off shots on the bench there is something wrong with your bench setup and/or bench technique. It seems obvious that you are moving the rifle in some way when squeezing the trigger vs breaking quickly. Perhaps you experience something akin to what Archers call "Target Panic" and are moving somewhere in the squeeze.
For most types of shooting other than off the bench you need to be able to break the trigger when the sites are on the target and when you want too, but off the bench you should be able to slowly squeeze off the shots and get at least equivelant results, usually better from a stable setup. I think the reccommendations of dry-firing and perhaps being filmed while shooting are excellent idea's to diagnose whatever problem you are having........But then again if you are shooting .6 MOA 5 shot groups consistantly with hunting ammunition and killing everything you shoot at, reports of any "problem" need to be taken in perspective..........DJ

I recall noting my preference for quick deliberate shooting even as a kid with a 22 (I would spend hours every weekend going through brick after brick), and I distinctly recall discovering, at the tender age of 9 or 10, that my groups improved with the technique I described. The same has spilled over to centerfires. In fact, to this day when I am having a "bad day at the range", I often remind myself: "stop aiming so much, just get on target and shoot." Ray, you may be correct, I may in fact be squeezing the trigger, just is in a very quick way, almost a slap, but still smooth.

DJ, I think you are correct about the shooting rest, as I sometimes ad hoc a front rest, at least in part. It is interesting what you say about "target panic" with a bow, as I was certainly afflicted with this until I switched to a left-handed bow... sounds like an odd fix, but it made ALL the difference.

As for hunting, this has always been over the pack or off hand (woods hunting) and I am pleased to say that, well into my third decade of hunting, I've yet to hit an animal (deer to elk) non-fatally with any shot, even (superfluous) follow-up shots. Nor have I ever fired at a big game animal I did not collect. My hunting buddies keep reminding me that my day to miss is sorely overdue... tragically, my day to see a 170-class whitetail is sorely overdue as well - hopefully they won't coordinate.

pounds is a heavy trigger. My .223 & .308 are both set to 1.3 pounds. Very crisp & light. .223 will shoot .25 MOA at 200 Meters (NOT Yards). .308 will shoot sub MOA at 200 meters also. I could not do this with a heavy trigger. (both rifles are Weatherby Vangaurds)

Mike.

I read this article from Anatoliy Piddubnyy you can read the complete article at :
http://www.pilkguns.com/omni.htm

#4 Aiming and Trigger Action
We have found in many books mistaken ideas on the pistol shooting technique. Books tell us that we have to aim after starting the action of the trigger, but these two elements of the final part of the shot must really be carried out at the same time. I am completely convinced that talking about a precise shot in the case of pistol shooting is a mistake because this type of shot always entails a compromise. The compromise consists of the need to make a sure shot even with the impossibility of keeping the weapon perfectly still, because a shooter is not a vise and the weapon always moves. What is more important, the precision of the aim or the firmness of the stabilization of the pistol in the shooting zone? Is the stabilization of the wrist important or not? In one’s daily life, the most important information we receive is often visual. This is true also in shooting, but we have to decide whether perfect aim is indispensable in pistol shooting and whether we can use it in case we are able to attain it. Our best accessory is the SCATT electronic system for training, designed in the Soviet Union and currently made in Russia. While researching the SCATT files, I came across documented confirmation of many of my suppositions. For example, that stability by itself does not guarantee good results. Vladimir Goncharov can keep the pistol in the 10 zone for 5-6 seconds; Mihail Nestruev has very brief windows of opportunity, of up to one second, but he takes full and effective advantage of that time. Thanks to his ability to “seize the ideal moment†he was voted World’s Best Shooter of 2001. The SCATT is also demonstrating that every shooter has his own arc of movements (AM) in the last second before the shot in the 9.5 circle (most have a smaller, higher quality AM). This means that if at the time of the shot there is no movement that does not belong to the AM, the shot remains within that circle. From personal experience I know that stability within the 9.5 circle is not a trait exclusive of elite shooters but also of midlevel shooters (a majority). All shooters are familiar with the phenomenon when the shots come out almost automatically – the sights enter the shooting zone and the finger goes into action effortlessly – he is working on automatic pilot, subconsciously. Let’s try an experiment in which we will try to separate out subconscious and conscious actions. The shooter, taking on the conscious role, has to carry out all his actions as he usually does, and the coach, as the subconscious, activates the trigger without looking at the aiming image. It would be more comfortable to do it with the aid of a simple mechanism (figure Dis. 1) or using the method picture in Photograph 3. In 100% of the cases, the shots subconscious shots are better than the usual shots, clearly confirming that aiming plays a secondary role in the shootingprocess. The main thing is the immobility of the weapon in the moment when the shot is made, regardless of the precision of the shooting. Our stability is always better than we imagine it. To sumup: if after the sights enter the shooting zone the shooter moves his index finger without concerning himself about aiming, the shot will come out within his AM, that is, the shooter will realize his potential. I carried out this experiment for the first time 40 years ago with a rifle.I was training together with Vladimir Lukianchuk,a perfect rife shooter. Suddenly, he told me he had lost his confidence when he shot standing. I stood by his left side and, observing that his rifle was more or less stable,I hit the trigger with my pistol. The result in the first 10 shots was surprising – 95points! We shot a few more series with similar results. One week later, Vladimir set a new record in 3x20 free rifle 300 meters. The result, 590 points (200+193+197) is still good today. This record was never broken and people simply stopped competing in this event. It is possible to try this experiment without any mechanism, using air and sports(standard) pistols. The coach grips the hand of the shooter with his own hand, placing his index finger on top of the shooter’s index finger and, after the stabilization of the arm, calmly but decisively moves his index finger until the shot is made (picture 3). Those who are still unconvinced can consult the SCATT results again. In the graph time shift we can see that if the shooter were to shoot 0.1-0.3seconds earlier, the result could be better.But this is not entirely true because, by shooting earlier, the shooter will make the same mistake, only earlier. This mistake is due to a loss of stability in the last instant of the shot.The conclusion is the same: immobility when making the shot is the main condition for making a sure shot. The pistol shooting process does not depend on the modality, it is always the same. In any event one must keep the sights aligned, and not concern oneself with their position in relation to the target. Avery old saying among Russian shooters is right: “Calm pulling, no breathing, controlling the sights†- this saying clearly indicates the order of our actions: pull first, aim second. I know it is difficult to control only the sights and to distance oneself from the target, but this is basic. In order to adapt to aiming “without a target†one can make use of a mechanism invented by a shooter and doctor of the Ukrainian team, Serguey Kolesnik. A square piece of transparent plastic with a circle to cover the image of the target isplaced over the rear sight. When the shooter is aiming he cannot see the target. This will help him lower the psychological pressure. All shooters are familiar with the situation where the finger becomes “blockedâ€. The voluntary activation of the finger can alter the stability and this usually happens when the shooter cannot afford to make any mistakes. The fear of making a bad shot is making one concentrate too early on the aim, which in turn blocks the movement of the index finger. We have to do some dry firing with control on the activation of the finger before aiming in order to recover the coordination of one’s movements. Under these circumstances, the most important factor is the shooters confidence in the firmness of his posture and in his attitude. This element of the shot is so psychological that it should not be treated as a purely technical element. The security and confidence of the shooter in his own capabilities are more important than his technical preparation. Anyone can learn the shooting technique, but applying it under the time for the shot does not depend on aim but on the speed of the movement of the index finger. One must aim during the movement of the index finger, with maximum attention on controlling the aiming mechanisms. Dis.13 stressful conditions can only be pulled off by those who worry less about the results, those who have confidence in their technique and whose main concern is the application of this technique in every shot. I think that, at this point, the Biels Bohr anecdote bears repeating because it can explain this problem. The Nobel Laureate was taking a stroll one day with some students in the country. A young man threw a stone and hit a post about 40 meters distance. Niels Bohr, being the genius that he was, drew a general idea from the action and said: “Aiming at a distant object and hitting it – that, of course is impossible. But if we throw a stone in the right direction, imagining the absurd possibility of hitting the object will make success more probable. In this case the certainty that this can happen is more important than training and will.†We should apply this thinking in every shooting range – psychological preparation condensed into a few words.
Conclusion: I can state without fear of being deemed orthodox that the main condition for a perfect shot is the immobility of the weapon in the last instant of the trigger action, regardless of the position of the sights within the arc of movement.

Daniel

9.3 x 62 ,
Not sure whether you have had any experience with pistol shooting ? If you want to learn more about trigger control I suggest you pick up a second hand air pistol and practice slow fire at 10 metres on a standard air pistol target . Any deficiencies in your technique will soon become apparent . Slap the trigger on an air pistol and you'll be lucky to hit the target at all .
Some of the best rifle shooters I know have done a lot of competitive pistol shooting . It's great practice .

quote:

Do a ton of dry firing! When you are looking through the sights, move your trigger finger straight back. (This movement can be quite fast.) If your sights move at ALL at the drop of the striker, that is the sign of a poor trigger squeze. Keep practicing. You will eventually find that a good squeeze is indeed possible and in the process, your scores will soar.

I agree, If you have the proper rest, you should be able to squeeze the trigger until it breaks w/o the crosshairs moving a bit. Dry fire until your rest is steady enough so, you have no movement at all when the trigger breaks.

Good Luck!

Reloader

9.3x62,
If your shooting .06 groups you need not worry what anyone else is doing...

I also shoot very fast off a bench or in a hunting situation....thats my controled flinch..

Going to sleep on the trigger is not for me, it does not work for me..and drives me up the wall when someone else does it while I'm watching I usually react by "shoot the damn thing before it get dark" or "I'll be in the shade taking a nap, wake me when your finished".........

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
9.3x62,
If your shooting .06 groups you need not worry what anyone else is doing...

I also shoot very fast off a bench or in a hunting situation....thats my controled flinch..

Going to sleep on the trigger is not for me, it does not work for me..and drives me up the wall when someone else does it while I'm watching I usually react by "shoot the damn thing before it get dark" or "I'll be in the shade taking a nap, wake me when your finished".........

Yes, I am not about to change anything - it's been working quite well for me on the range and in the field, I was mostly curious if others had a "style" similar to what appears to be natural for me...

I had a .243 Remington 700 BDL with bull barrel that had a very easy trigger and it shot bettter when squeezeing fast after cross hairs lined up. When shooting my old 7.7 Jap sniper rifle I have to take up the slack and really consentrat on the target so I won't get distracted. I try to let the shot be a surprise as it has a 4 ton trigger pull on it, but still shoots 1/2" groups. On my Ruger MK 77 .260 I shoot fast when hunting and it works great.

I sure want to know when the rifle is going off, particularly when shooting offhand. When shooting offhand, I shoot better the less time I take, hold the breath, line it up and touch the trigger with no second guessing or wondering when it'll go off. I also like a light trigger 2.5 pounds is just right. I also think I've shot so much offhand I will adjust just as it goes off sometimes without thinking about it at all. I know of several times I've mentally recorded a near broadside shot, had the animal move and I drove a bullet right behind the last rib, breaking the other shoulder and didn't even remember the animal turning, adjusted without thinking. Smooth trigger control is the key, how fast it's pulled wont matter. Being suprised by the gun going off would make me flinch like hell.

I agree, I,m not into surprises, I know when the gun is going off everytime...and your correct, shoot pretty fast off hand before the tremors set in....I much prefer irons for off hand shooting at any range, I can't see that wiggle and I won't try to grab the trigger as the x hairs float by...