I found the loads for N560 and 140 and 160 grain bullets in the ninth (edited before it was assumed to be the tenth, but that has no data for the 280 ackley as per noted experts below) edition a bit impressive. anyone use these or that powder in a 280 Ackely yet? 3300 fps is fast indeed.

alos listed this question in medium bore forum.

Jameister

Yeeee-oooowwww! I can't get, never have gotten, and probably never will see 3300fps in my 7mmRemMags with a 140gr Bullet.

How many shots is the 280Ack rifle using that rifle good for? Surely they also mention that.

Hot core, the federal premium 150gr NBT in my 26" sendero was 3200fps+ for years in my 7mm rem mag. 3300fps with a 140gr pill is not all that far off for a long barrel with a slow powder. Not to say I have gotten to 3300fps with my 280AI, but then again I havn't loaded the 140gr pills either. I think it is possible with maybe a MAX of 4 loadings.

Sierra's top loads for the 140 in the 280AI stop at 3100 fps, and Nosler's fastest loading for the 140 is 3153 fps with RL22.

I know that Jon Sundra used to get some very impressive velocities from his 7mmJRS, but it holds a few grains more powder than the 280AI.

Considering that Hornady manages to get 3100 fps with their 140LM loading in the 280, I would suggest that 3100 to 3150 fps to be a good target for the 280 AI with conventional loading techniques.

I suspect these velocities to be about as suspect as some published in the Barnes reoading manual a couple of years ago.

THe loads in Cartriges of the World (2003) are attributed to Quickload.

Wish my copy just ordered was here, I would quote their claims.

Jameister

QL says a 24" 280AI can do 3179 fps at 59617 psi using N560 and default settings. Quickload tends to be optimistic.

I have the 10th edition of COW and can find no listing for the 280 AI.

Loadtech goes up to 105% case capacity and shows 3035 at 57900psi.

I built my 280 Wildcat by moving the shoulder foward from what the 7JRS had and reducing the taper. I can't get close to 3300 in a 23" and stay below 63,000.

I don't trust any of the loading data in COW as a general rule. COW isn't meant to be a handloading data manual. And some of that Quickload data (in the 9th edition) for various cartridges is VERY optimistic, IMHO.

-Bob F.

quote:

Originally posted by popenmann:
QL says a 24" 280AI can do 3179 fps at 59617 psi using N560 and default settings. Quickload tends to be optimistic.

I have the 10th edition of COW and can find no listing for the 280 AI.

perhaps it was the 9th edition, cause I know I saw the listing, with all data from quickload referneces. and speeds of 3200-3300 fps.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by popenmann:
QL says a 24" 280AI can do 3179 fps at 59617 psi using N560 and default settings.

I suppose that 3179 with a 24 inch barrel COULD increase to 3300 in a 26 inch barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
Hot core, the federal premium 150gr NBT in my 26" sendero was 3200fps+ for years in my 7mm rem mag. 3300fps with a 140gr pill is not all that far off for a long barrel with a slow powder. ....

Hey JustC, I believe the very last rifle I chronographed a Load for was my current 7mmRemMag with 140gr Nosler B-Tips and 140gr Nosler Partitions with what I call a SAFE MAX(in this rifle) using H1000 and Fed-215s.

These numbers may be off slightly, but I know they were about 50fps apart, because I could put a bit more Powder with that Lot of Partitions and get the same Pressure Indications. And for what it is worth, those Partitions are more "accurate" than the B-Tips with that Load in this rifle.

I believe the chronograph "claimed" 3150fps for the Partitions and 3100fps for the B-Tips, but I would not bet on those velocities.

Come to think of it, the 150gr B-Tips "might" run around 3050fps in this 24" barrel, but who knows for sure since I had no way to Calibrate the chronograph.

The previous 7mmRemMag had a barrel that would take more Powder than this one, so it might have made it to 3250-3300fps with the 140gr-ers, but I don't believe I ever bothered chronographing it at all. Been way too long ago.

Since the BT is longer it takes up space using the same COL. The same powder will give you a higher pressure thus higher velocity.

2" of barrel will not give you 121FPS. more like 40-50.

hot core,..I almost fell off the stool when the chrono showed those velocities from factory ammo. I never would have thought they would run that fast. The primers aren't flattened and the cases aren't sticky,...but I am NOT going to try explaining why or what,..I just keep shooting that ammo

Here are some loads in a 280 AI with 26" barrel. They are accurate and reach MAX in my opinion.

NBT=Nosler BT
LRB=Lost River Ballistics
SBT=Sierra Boat tail
SFB=Sierra flat base

R25…66.0 140 NBT 3274 OK Pockets
R25…66.0 140 LRB 3314 OK Pockets
R25…66.0 140 LRB 3335 Pres OK
R25…66.0 140 SBT 3211/3256 Accurate
R25…66.5 140 SBT 3205/3271 Accurate
R25…66.5 140 LRB 3287/3257
R25…67.0 140 LRB 3334 accurate(MAX!)

R22… 63.0 140 SFB 3241
R22… 64.0 140 SFB 3300
R22… 64.0 140 NBT 3342
R22… 64.5 140 SFB 3318
R22… 65.0 140 SFB 3340 (MAX!)

I do not own a 280 or 280AI, or even a 7 Mag of any type...

However as folks do have a discussion about velocity potential, I do have some experience with that.....

I don't know how many people always follow the OAL length of a cartridge, listed in SAAMI specs or a Reload manual... I for ONE DO NOT!

For each of my firearms, I typically will load a dummy round, to see exactly where the throat ends in THAT rifle....If it is way below the magazine length, then I will take the rifle to a gunsmith, and have him ream the throat out to fit the magazine length....

Folks on the forum have indicated that they don't get the velocities that I do on some of the load data I share... others as usual, call someone who gets better results than is published IDIOTS or MAINIACS for getting better results and claiming HIGH PRESSURE and slinging "YOUR GOING TO KILL SOMEONE".....

However, a longer throat, will allow more velocity depending on if the load is touching the lands.... or barely off the lands...

Higher velocity can also be obtained with the bullet seated further out, which reduces pressure until the bullet touches the lands.... One can also work up the powder load to higher volumes if they think they need the extra velocity.... I usually don't for field use, but do play with it to know where complete potential for a round and a particular firearm are...

I do remember working up a load in a 243 with H 380 and a 55 grain ballistic tip and 60 grain Sierra HP.... at 50 grains of H 380, I mentioned that I got 4000 fps ( with NO overpressured signs)..... A batch of our resident armchair ballisticians called me all sorts of names and tell me how I was going to kill people passing on that info..... because this load manual, or that load manual had listed 44 grains as max....... UNTIL.....

Someone brought it up that Nolser had published the same info in their No 5 Manual... and had even gone 3 grains higher than I did.... then the world got real quiet on that subject...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
hot core,..I almost fell off the stool when the chrono showed those velocities from factory ammo. I never would have thought they would run that fast. The primers aren't flattened and the cases aren't sticky,...but I am NOT going to try explaining why or what,..I just keep shooting that ammo

Hey JustC, I can see why you like it.

And I just looked at AIUs data which also is a lot faster than this 7mmRemMag of mine.

I know some folks in the Carolinas swear by their 280Acks too. Looks like it is one of those "special" cartridges that is blessed with some Powders which are just perfectly suited to it.

And, I know my rifle has a "Slow" barrel. If it wasn't so accurate, I'd be upset about it.
---

Now both of you need to get over to Big Game and tell us about some GREAT hunts and 1-shot kills with them.

When I chronoed my 280 AI with 140 grain bullets at 3300 fps, I also found that the primers would not stay in the pocket on reloading. That was enough to cause me to drop back down a couple of grains, to an accurate load that throws 140 grain bullet at 3200 fps.

for whatever reason, the ackelys will not show pressure signs like tapered, non-40* shouldered cases. I ran the 6.5-06AI to 3208fps with a 140gr a-max in a 26" tube, and the same thing happened. The primer pockets were gone in 1 firing. The primers were only showing minimal faltness, but the pockets told the real story.

I would say that 3300fps from a 280AI with a 140gr pill would be short on case life, unless it was a 30-32" tube.

Just because the case doesn't show pressure doesn't mean it isn't there. When you start exceeding 7mag reload velocity and pushing 7STW factory and even reload velocity with a 280AI you have pressure and plenty of it.

Guys, to get maximum velocity with "reasonable" PSI, Federal (high energy) and Hornady (light magnum) are doing what I have been doing for years. Basically, they're packing in as much slow burning powder as they can using a combined tapping/packing/bullet compression technique. You can do the same!

First, there are a couple of slow burning powders with high-load density - IMR7828SCC and VVn560. Re25 and Re22 also have a relatively high-load density. Start with these high load density slow burners, get a 6" drop tube, tap the case with a metal spoon as you incrementally drop the powder into the case through the tube, and finally tap some more after you're finished. Go slow. Fill the case to the ABSOLUTE top of the case mouth, and seat the bullet on top of the powder, compressing the powder. Re25 and 22 compresses well without causing the bullet to extrude.

You will be amazed how much slow burning powder you can get into a case. For example, a standard Lapua 30-06 case will accept 66-67 grs. of Re25, and with a compressing 180 gr bullet on top, you'll get ~2950 fps with a 24" barrel. The other mentioned powders should also work well. You'll be working at 60-65,000 PSI and squeezing maximum performance from your '06 or 280 AI (or whatever). Always work up to these loads in 0.5 gr. increments - it is possible to exceed 65,000 PSI, especially when the bullet gets too heavy.

Also, these loads are quite accurate. You might even consider using magnum primers, but you may not see any difference in performance from std primers.

Cartridge: .280 Ack Imp
Bullet: .284, 140, NOS BalTip 28140
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.330 inch or 84.58 mm
Barrel Length: 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders. Matching Maximum Pressure: 65000 psi, or 448 Mpa or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 120 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window. C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type/Filling or Loading Ratio[%]/Charge[grs]/Vel.[fps]
Hodgdon Retumbo/115.9/72.1/3341
Norma MRP 2/115.4/71.4/3334
Norma MRP/105.9/67.7/3332
Alliant Reloder-25/113.0/69.5/3330
Vihtavuori N560/104.4/67.4/3324
Ramshot Magnum/108.6/72.0/3317
Accurate MAGPRO/107.1/70.2/3311
IMR 7828 SSC/105.1/66.8/3307
Hodgdon H870/120.0/77.5/3305
Alliant Reloder-22/106.8/66.8/3298

quote:

Alliant Reloder-22/106.8/66.8/3298

Well that is interesting. I tried 63 grains of RE22 under a 140 grain bullet, and it produced 3300 fps, but the bolt was sticky, adn the primers fell out. I backed down three grains to my most accurate load, can not imagine what a 66 grain load would do pressure wise, but it would be over the top.

thanks for the information. now I see what Barnes was quoting: extrapolations into compressed load and theoretical velocities.

Thanks for the insignt.

Yep,..ackelys will run super fast and do it safely, but cases WILL BE sacrificed.

I used powders up to RL25, and they were dirty burners which fouled the bore with carbon rather quickly. This was in a PacNor super match 5 groove 8 twist tube. I lean more on the RL22 and 4831sc in the long ackelys.

Standard calibers show pressure much more readily. A chrony has been the best bet when testing ackly calibers for me.

quote:

Yep,..ackelys will run super fast and do it safely, but cases WILL BE sacrificed

Having trouble understanding how having pressure high enough to sacrifice cases is doing it safely.

To each his own.

In my experience Ackley-Improved cases show pressure signs at exactly the same PSIs as the corresponding non-improved cases. Brass is brass, and it's going to flow more-and-more as the PSIs increase, especially when the PSI exceeds 63,000 PSI (with primer pockets getting loose very quickly as you exceed 65,000 PSI). Indeed, pockets will "blow" with one firing at PSIs over 75 to 80,000 PSI.

As long as you using a well vented, modern bolt-action rifle, at these PSIs you should be safe. Also, use fresh brass to avoid head separations.

Likewise, you can push the big mag cartridges the same way, but they tend to be "over bore" with currently available powders and, thus, less efficient.

If you're into "efficiency" get a 308 - if you couldn't care less about "efficiency" and barrel life, get a 30-378.

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
Yep,..ackelys will run super fast and do it safely, but cases WILL BE sacrificed...

Hey JustC, I'm with ramrod340, cound you give us a few more details on your thoughts about this?

Yeah,..simple, before I was loading more "responsibly" I ran the ackleys (both 280AI and 6.5-06AI) wayyyyy high into the 3200fps and approached 3300fps range with 140gr in 6.5mm and 162gr in 7mm from 26" tubes. When primer pockets are toast in 1-2 firings but accuracy is under 1" at 200yds for 5 rnds, there definitely is a harmonic there, but pressure is too high.

Now for the controversial part, NEVER was the bolt sticky or the primers completely flat or even more than 50% flattened. NEVER did a casehead seperate and NEVER did a primer become pierced. Sooooo, on one hand the traditional experts will claim that I was HIGH in pressure, however, they would fail to find any of their "traditional" pressure signs other than toasted pockets.

I find little purpose in trying to explain scientificaly why this is the case with the Ackleys other than the 40* shoulder and no taper must have something to do with it. I do know that my pressures had to be very very very high when I crapped out pockets in 2 firings on brand new brass. However, the rifles, (rem700, win70, and sako L691) never showed even a sligthest action strain and the lapped lugs showed no signs of gauling or set-back. The only symptom was bad primer pockets.

I am not Parker Ackely, so I will refrain from wasting time in figuring out why, I just know what I saw. I ran into sticky bolts and flattened primers MUCH further down the load ladder with the parent calibers than I did with the Improved versions and velocity was pushed a good 300fps over the parent in equal length bores. Like I said, I load only for slight increases now and find that harmonic,..but back then I certainly pushed those cases further than I ever would today. But, I saw it for myself, the ONLY pressure sign was bad pockets. If you don't have sticky bolt lift, IMO, you are not on the ragged edge of action/case yield. I had to see it to have beleived it,..and I have ONLY witnessed this in 40* ackley calibers,..all others show much more readily, that they are too hot. This is not to say that they might have yielded all at once with no signs previous, but that would have to be some difference related to the "improved" case design which I have little interest in trying to prove for myself as I already have too little range time.

That's just my version of what I actually saw, YMMV

JustC thanks for the additional info. I had read from your post that you supported loading to the point that cases lasted 1 or 2 firings.

I agree for what ever reason the AI shows very little pressure signs of any type. Loose primers being about the only one. What I found playing with mine and a stain guage. I started seeing some expansion in the 65-70,000 range. It could very easily 5-7000 from case to case. When I would have pockets lasting 1-2 firings I was in the 70-75,000 range. Like you primers were not overly flat and never a bolt lift problem.

For me, rapidly developing, loose-primer pockets are one of the best indicators of PSIs exceeding 65,000, and a blown primer (toasted pocket) after one firing in a new case for PSIs exceeding 75 - 80,000 PSI. I use a hand priming tool to feel for the loose pockets. I believe the loosening primer pockets correlate nicely with excessive case-head expansion (CHE).

Extraction marks also occur simultaneously with rapidly loosening primer pockets in M700 Rem actions, but are less apparent in Win M70 or Mauser actions. Excessive bolt lift seems to vary with the action and caliber, the amount of case/chamber lubrication, the number of times the case has been fired HOT, and how the case was resized (i.e., neck sized vs. full resized).

Finally, when loading HOT, I believe one should monitor every shot fired with a chronograph coupled with Quick Load to back-calculate "probable" PSI - that is, given the specific powder/bullet/cartridge combo. Also, know that ambient temperature inreases will cause a hot load to become a TOO HOT load.

It wasn't until I bought my first chronograph that I realized how poorly I was respecting my safety and wallet. When I actually saw the speeds with the ackleys I had loaded to that point, I abandoned that load and came back down like a sane person. Sometimes you DO get lucky

quote:

Originally posted by JustC:
...Sooooo, on one hand the traditional experts will claim that I was HIGH in pressure, however, they would fail to find any of their "traditional" pressure signs other than toasted pockets. ..

Hey JustC, Nice post.

Always gets back to, "If you see ANY of the Pressure Indicators, STOP, and reduce the Loads.

I think the question on the thread opener has been answered: what about those quick load data from Barnes 9th edition?

TOO HOT TO SHOOT!!

thanks guys. I already ordered a can of V560, but will not expect to approach 3300 fps!!

Jameister

J, what are the actual data - that is, powder, bullet type/wt, barrel length, OAL, etc.? I'll give you the QL read out, if you provide the info. I don't have the Barnes manual.

I can get 3200 fps with 150 gr in a 24" 30-06, but the primer pockets get loose.

I would like to have that velocity, and I would be willing to sacrifice the brass, but I do not want the chance that a primer could fall out and jam the gun at the wrong time.

My hunting partner lost an elk when a Bikini scope cover got stuck in the action. What ever can go wrong, will go wrong.

If you want to load your shells to 70-75000 psi I guess it is your choice. Loosing a primer and not getting a second shot would be the least of my worries.
Not being able to see for any future shots would be what I would worry about. If you want 300Mag velocities the shoot a 300 Mag. My 2 cents for the day.

Ramrod,
What kind of rifle are you thinking of that will cost you an eye for shooting at 75kpsi?

I can't get 98 Mausers to fail.
I can make the bolt so stuck, I can't pound the bolt handle open. I have to take the barrel off, but there is no danger to my eyes. The gas from a failed case or primer is vented into the magazine, and there is a two stage filter on the firing pin to srub off and block gasses from the shooter.

Do you have a vintage 1903 Springfield with heat treat problems?

Like I said to each his own. Load what you want. I simply choose not too.

repeated pressures of 75k will eventually cause you health problems. But, to each his own. Seems liks a god awful lot of load work prepping new cases every firing, at least the amount of prep work I go through.

The only way I would participate in that experiment would be with a test action in a lab where I pulled thr trigger by a string standing behind a cement wall. my .002"

tnekkcc,

Perhaps you have never heard of metal fatigue. Even the best of modern rifle actions will eventually come apart if fed a steady diet of high stress loads.

Definitely not on the first round, perhaps not on the 1000'th round, but the rifle is prone to come apart eventually.

I once somehow got enough H380 behind a 60 gr hornady in a 22-250 to stretch the chamber or set the bolt lugs back on a Savage 112. The rifle now has excessive headspace, from only two rounds which I had to pound on the bolt to open the action.

That is as close as I ever want to come to having a rifle come apart.

I still do not know how the over pressure loads occured, I was weighing each load on a Pact electronic scale, and always observed the powder level in the case before seating the bullet.

If the load had not been quite safe and of moderate pressure to start with, this degree of overcharge would have probably caused the action to immediately fail.

If a person chooses to routinely load to what you are guessing must be 75,000 psi, the margin of error coud quite possibly be putting you between 80,000 or 85,000 psi if your brass is simply a little harder than you thought. And you obviously have no margin for error.

I.S.
I don't know as much about metal fatigue as JonA, assclown, or VarmintAl, but I have read a little on it in this forum on the 1,000,000 cycles to get fatigue:
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tp.../r/76010446#76010446

But as little as I know about metal fatigue, I do know a red herring and a straw man when I am talking about loosing an eye with a 30-06 load th at might make the primer fall out of the brass.