I have seen this discussed before but I have not been able to find the discussion.

When you have a partially filled case what is the best filler to use, I have heard everything from saw dust to synthetic stuffing....what have you been using and what effect on the barrel

[ 08-15-2003, 23:46: Message edited by: raamw ]

raamw,

We only use fillers with reduced loads. And for these we have used tissue paper, Grex and kapok.

They all seem to work equaly well, and we have not found any sort of negative effect they might have on the barrels.

Excuse the long post,I tried the link to this but it did'nt work must have been removed.While a lot of guys use synthetic with no problems I'v learned if sh*t CAN happen to me...it will.I'v used both cotton and TP.Originally posted by Alladin.

Chamber Rings and Natural Fibers

This article, written by John Campbell, is reprinted here by special permission of American Single Shot Rifle News.
emember the abomination of double-knit fabrics and "leisure suits" that befell men's fashion in the 1970s? I do. And I also remember the happy day when someone once again discovered that natural fibers were best. The world returned to cotton, wool and sanity.

Now it appears that the same philosophy offers us a solution to this over-powder wad/chamber ringing problem. Some of you may remember a few years back when I ruined the chamber of a perfectly good .38/55 Winchester Single-Shot by blowing out 30-30 brass with "squib" loads. I was using 12 grs. of Bullseye, a Dacron fiber wad to hold the powder in place, and a Lyman 311227 cast bullet in the case mouth just to plug the end of the "tube." In less than half a dozen rounds, I had a magnificent chamber ring. It was so bad that I had to pound the cases out of the rifle with a rod.

I reported this incident in the ASSRA News and the piece spurred quite a bit of response and speculation. Charlie Dell was among those who chipped in some commentary. He declared that he'd never had any problem with kapok wads in smokeless powder cast bullet loads, and that he'd never ringed a chamber. I had no reason to question Charlie's contention, but I did give him my recipe for chamber rings nonetheless. Intrigued, Charlie and a learned associate proceeded to see if they could reproduce the chamber ringing effect under controlled conditions.

They used an old "junk" Winchester barrel, chambered it to 38-55, and followed my loading formula. Sure enough, they got rings. And they kept getting rings under the right conditions. Charlie even cut the chambers out of these ringed barrels and cross-sectioned them to examine the swollen rings. Charlie showed me a few of these chambers. After more tests, Charlie reported his findings in this journal some issues back.

The bottom line to Charlie's investigation was that Dacron was the absolute WORST thing you can use for an over-powder wad. Contrary to what some gun writers had suggested in the 1960s and 70s, Dacron is not consumed in the process of ignition. It is merely melted. And under certain conditions, this plastic glob does ugly things to a nice rifle. Here's my analysis.

In a worst case scenario, this goo is thrust ahead of the powder gases and against the base of the bullet. There it encounters an object of resistance (the bullet) and acts much like hydraulic fluid (which is incompressible). If the bullet is breech seated in the barrel, or loaded out in fixed ammunition to engage the rifling, resistance is enhanced and things are exacerbated. As the Dacron goo strikes the base of the bullet, it is momentarily trapped between the bullet and the massive pressure of the powder gas building up behind it. For a microsecond, it has no where to go... except to exert a radial, lateral stress on the barrel steel. If that steel is of a modern alloy with high hoop strength, it can sometimes resist this lateral force and everything seems normal. The bullet begins to move, the pressure at its base is relieved, and the gun fires it projectile downrange. When the bullet exits the muzzle, the melted Dacron evidence is blown to the winds.

However, if the steel of your gun barrel is of a less sophisticated 19th century alloy, like that found in an original Winchester Single-Shot, bad things can happen. The lateral force exerted by the melted Dacron goo is often enough to defeat this steel's strength. In that situation, the Dacron is melted by the burning gunpowder as it is driven forward to whack against the base of the bullet. There it is momentarily stopped, and it "hydraulically" impresses its wafer-like form into the case and chamber. At first, you don't notice that anything strange is happening because the rifle sounds normal and the bullet hits the target where it is supposed to. At first, the ring impression is very light -- almost invisible. But this insidious "Dacron effect" is cumulative. Fire about 50 shots or so and... surprise, you've got a nasty ring! The first time you are aware of such a problem is when extraction becomes a little too sticky. You look at the fired case carefully. Then you see it. Right there around the case neck where the base of the bullet was seated is an obvious ring. By then it's too late. The damage is done.

The only way out of this predicament is to gauge the depth of the ring and then get a neck or neck/throat reamer specially made to clean out the depression. This will increase bullet/case/chamber neck clearance and degrade the bullet-aligning qualities of the chamber. Bullets sized to a larger diameter may help to obviate this drawback, but the results are unpredictable. One of my Model 85s shot worse and nothing could be done to improve its performance. Another was able to handle a special Hudson bullet with its new throat and shot more accurately than it ever had before. Go figure.

But the most important thing to keep in mind with Dacron wads is that the ring-generating conditions and forces are there-- and in play -- whether they create a ring or not. If your modern Douglas barrel shows no signs of a ring with Dacron wads, it simply means that it has been able to withstand the forces that are at work. The ruinous pressure is still there!

For some reason, the Dacron chamber ring phenomenon is very scarce in rifles of .40 caliber or larger. Those who look for it in a 45-70 will look a long time. Why is this is so? Again, I can only offer my personal analysis:

When the Dacron goo hits the bullet base in a chamber the size of a 45-70's, I believe the pressure wafer it creates is markedly thinner than it would be in a 32-40. This thin edge of pressure either exerts less lateral force against the chamber wall, exerts it for a shorter moment of time, or both. The result is a greatly reduced tendency to create chamber rings. But from one perspective this doesn't make sense. If the melted Dacron's ring is narrower, shouldn't that small edge have great force? This is where my insight begins to break down. Maybe larger calibers don't melt the Dacron so completely or quickly.

But we're agreed on one thing. Dacron is bad. So what's the alternative? Actually, there are two. First, you can use no wad at all. Accurate Arms 5744 powder is reported to be fairly "position insensitive." In other words, it can end up pretty much anywhere in the cartridge case and still provide consistent ignition and pressures. My tests substantiate this. But they also hint that if 5744 was consistently back there against the flash hole, it would work even better. So would a lot of other powders that aren't as "Schuetzen-friendly" as 5744.

For them we still need a harmless wad -- like Charlie Dell's kapok. But just try to find some kapok these days. I eventually gave up looking for old life preservers and wracked my mind for a substitute. Then ASSRA member Mike Brennan suggested the obvious: cotton. That's right, cotton. I got my supply from the corner drug store for less than two bucks, and have been using it for years now with absolutely no ill effects. It's fluffy and it works like Dacron to hold the powder back against the flash hole. But it doesn't give you chamber rings. Not in a range of cast bullet loads that I've used it in from 25-20 to 45-70. And let me emphasize that my experience with cotton wads has spanned several years and several thousand rounds. I don't use much. Just enough to hold the powder in place. That amount varies from one caliber/case to another. In process, I push the cotton down against the powder with a section of old 22 caliber jointed cleaning rod. I don't tamp it down.

So far, accuracy with cotton wads is outstanding and the chronograph reveals extreme spreads and standard deviations that are about half those of identical loads without cotton wads. When the round is fired, you can just notice a thin fan of white from the muzzle. This tells me that the cotton fiber is not burning to charcoal -- or melting like Dacron. The cotton is merely riding behind the bullet and dissipating into the atmosphere as the projectile exits the muzzle. And since natural fiber cotton does not enter into a hydraulic, "plastic goo" state under ignition, I don't believe any lateral pressure at the base of the bullet is enough to force a ring into the chamber... even with old Single-Shot barrels. The impedance and ring force conditions may still exist, however.

On the upside, cotton wads may even serve to enhance accuracy by protecting the base of the bullet from distortion and impingement by powder granules. Cotton's insulating qualities may also help to keep more lubricant working for you for a longer time. So at this point, I'm confident enough about cotton to let you in on the secret. It just goes to prove a gentleman's adage, "In clothes or shooting, natural fibers are best."

Jeff

I have used t.p. wad over powder and Malt-o Meal,Cream of wheat to fire form with no ill effects.

Use Dacron as it will burn, and has been in guns and ammo article, loading the 243 lite?

In the NRA publication Handloading Bill Davis says not to use Dacron as it may cause ringing. Here you can search for a thread where one of the gunsmiths here say's to use Dacron in a particular way for big bore loads in a certain type of gun.

I use a small tuft of kapox.

Any time you are considering a filler application, make certain that the goal can't be accomplished with AA XMP 5744. This is a totally unique powder designed specifically for reduced loads and/or small charges in large cases. It ignites very easily and is "self-sustaining"' which means that it does not need much pressure to carry out a uniform, progressive burn. I do a lot of reduced loads and now use it in place of ANY filler.

Now you guys have got me worried. I'm just starting on regulating my 470 and I have all my loads made up with Dacron. Maybe I should get a box of cotton balls instead. Has anyone had any bad experience with cotton? could you use cotton for BP loads also? or does it need to be a hard filler like grex?

I got some old Navy surplus life jackets and have about 2 pounds of Kapok, should last until I depart this place....

I like Kapok in my 32-40, 30-30 and 32 special cast loads that are reduced. 5744 is very good, but I get better accuracy with 4227 and a wad.

regards,
Graycg

Thanks for all the feedback.

I did some testing in my basement, I used a little propellant in a metal disk and put some polyester filler in the middle as I did with toilet paper.
The results;
polyester was ignited by the burning propellant and it stayed burning with a little puddle of melted plastic which turned hard and black. Sure would not want that in my barrel waitting for the next bullet.

the toilet paper did not burn totally till well after the propellant had extinquished.

In my last Handloader magazine there is an ad for Kapok filler. Sorry, I didn't catch the name of the outfit that's selling it.
Jeff

I have been using a tuft of dacron in my .43 Mauser, with no apparent ill effects. However, the conclusions reached in this article certainly gives me pause!
I wish someone would take on some serious testing of using fillers.

Sabot, how do you determine the correct amount of 5744 to use?

Cartridge space fillers from Speer manual #9.

"Two filler materials that have proven very successful are Kapok and Dacron fiber fill, both used for pillow stuffing. Where both are available, Dacron is preferred. Dacron has the advantage of having greater loft than Kapok. After the case has been charged with powder, seat a 1\2 to 1.0 grain tuft of filler lightly on the powder charge with a small diameter dowel...Trial will show the proper amount of filler to use. If visible shreds of filler exit the bore on firing, reduce the amount of filler slightly. The proper amount of filler will be entirely consumed on firing and will produce no undesirable bore fouling."

SR4759 is also useful for reduced loads. Both Accurate Arms and Speer list them in their loading manuals.

Northsniper -

Accurate Arms is very proud of XMP 5744, and has included many loads in their 2002 Reloaders Guide. I have used it with great success in 243, 6.5X55, 270 Win, 7MM RUM, 30-06,300 RUM, 338 Win, 338 RUM, 416 Rem, and 458 Win.

With weighed charges, this amazing range of rounds averages a 12 fps SD.

If you have an application in mind, I will look it up for you, or just email Accurate Arms and they will be happy to help out.

To give you an idea of how unusaul this powder is, note the following max loads:

458 Win Mag 500 LRN 47.0 XMP 5744 = 1901fps

45/90 Win 500 LRN 32.5 XMP 5744 = 1413 fps

416 Rem 350 LGC 55.0 XMP 5744 = 2267 fps

416 Rigby 350 lgc 55.0 XMP 5744 = 2173 fps

7MM RUM 160 gr SRA SP 56.0 XMP 5744 = 2966 fps

30-06 Springf. 150 SRA SP 41.0 XMP 5744 = 2787 fps.

270 Win 100 gr HDY SP 38.5 XMP 5744 = 3100.

The stuff really can't be placed on a burn rate chart. Recoil is way down and bbls on hot numbers like the 7 RUM will essentially last forever while matching the 7MM Rem Mag.

I have used kapok in reduced loads with medium burning powders (RE-7,BLC-2,4227) for about 20 years with success.Most of my experience has been with 30-06 rifles pushing cast bullets at about 1700-1900 fps. Several years ago I tested several different loads in a rifle with the only difference being the filler. Without exception, the kapok loads gave higher velocities, lower Sd, and most importantly, kapok gave me better groups. I kept getting fliers with dacron. Another thing I noticed, I had a lot of trouble cleaning dacron out of the barrel.
I posted a question about fillers a couple years back on TFL and was advised it was important that the filler completely fill the case between the bullet and the powder. I used to only use about 1gn of filler. That left a gap between the filler and the base of the bullet. Now I use about 1.5 to 2gn of kapok to fill the case.
The supposition is that the gap between the filler and bullet can contribute to barrel ringing.