I have two custom big game rifles and a whole host of factory rifles. One of the reasons that I handload is because of the fact that I demand accuracy in my guns. Not "one hole" accuracy, but at least 1-inch accuracy at a hundred yards.

But I also want bullet performance on the terminal end on large game. This is my dilemma.

I have for years been trying to get one of the super premiums to shoot in any of my rifles. By "super premiums" I mean Barns X, Winchester Fail Safe, Swift A-frames and Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. In most cases, I can't get these bullets to shoot a group that you can cover with a pie plate. Of course, there have been exception groups, but none that I would be comfortable hunting with.

Now, I have tried loading them out to the lands, loading them in to the cannelure (if It has one), down-loading the charge, different powders, fire formed brass -- you name it, I've tried it.

For now, I've given up and gone back to "regular" premiums -- namely the Speer Grand Slam, which always shoot well in my guns. If fact, one of my custom guns shoots one-hole groups with them. Unfortunately, The recent Shooting Times article on terminal bullet performance was not too kind to my pet bullets, especially at 3000 fps or higher. I would change to Partitions (which fared pretty good in the article) but I've not had real good luck with them either.

Is there anything I can do to get the "magic bullets" to shoot in my rifles? What has been your experience? What do you think of Grand Slams? I'm leaving next week for a moose/caribou/bear hunt in Newfoundland and have already packed up two boxes of Grand Slams, so it's too late for this hunt.

I'll report on their performance when I return.

I have had similar experiences to yours with the Barnes X bullets. I have only used them in two different 7mm (Rem Mag and STW). I could not get a group better than 2 1/2 inches at 100. I went back to using Nosler Partitions and I was immediately able to get consistant 5-shot groups of 1 1/4" or less. I haven't tired the Trophy Bonded or A-Frames yet because the Noslers have always performed for me. I don't see a good reason to move to the more expensive "super" premiums you mentioned.

Other calibers I have good accuracy results in with Noslers Partitions are 270 Wby, 30-06, 338-378 Wby

When I'm trying to get a new bullet to perform, I normally begin at about 5% from the top, and perform what I call the OCW (for optimal charge weight) load development test. This approach normally results in a decent load recipe with the least amount of component usage.

What it basically is is a sort of "modified Audette" method. For those unfamiliar with the Creighton Audette method his was a method of load development which consisted of shooting at a distant target, some 300 yards away if possible. One shot of each charge weight variation was fired at the bullseye at the 300 yard target, and if all went well, a vertical string formed on the target as the increased charges were fired. Somewhere along that vertical string should be a "cluster" of three or four shots that hang together, indicating the most stable area of charge variations, and therefore (presumably) the best amount of powder to put into that load.

The problem I and many others have found with the Audette method is that useful information often eludes. Sometime (perhaps more often than not) no cluster, and often no intelligible vertical string even forms.

I've developed the following method which I believe is an excellent way to arrive at the OCW, or optimal charge weight for a particular load recipe. I define the OCW of a load recipe as the amount of powder which ignites and burns most consistently in that application. I believe that for any given cartridge recipe, there is a specific amount of that powder which will yield the best consistency.

This method has worked beautifully for several loads I've developed for the .270, the .308, and the .243. Others have had good fortune with .223 loads using this method.

I'll tell you about the latest OCW load I developed for my .243, a Remington 788. The bullet was the Sierra 60 grain HP, and the powder used was IMR 3031. Primers were the CCI 200's, and brass was all twice fired Winchester.

In checking three loading data sources, I noted that 39 to 41 grains of IMR 3031 was the max charge zone for IMR 3031 with 60 grain bullets in the .243. I have found that the best loads for all of my own rifles have been loads that were at or near listed maximums, but I do test about 5 per cent below for pressure signs, then work up.

I began with three rounds each of five different charges, graduating in .3 grain increments. The tested charges were 39.2, 39.5, 39.8, 40.1, and 40.4 grains.

I cleaned the rifle, and shot two fouling shots and allowed two minutes for it to cool. I had five targets posted at 100 yards, one target for each charge variation.

I shot one round of the 39.2 grain charge at target 1, allowed two minutes for cooling, and then fired one shot of the 39.5 grain charge at target 2, cooled, one shot of the 39.8 grain charge at target 3, cooled, you get the idea...

This is basically a "round robin" system of grouping each charge, which precludes disadvantaging late groups due to fouling, or heat build up.

When finished, I had three shots on each of the five targets, BUT (!)... I don't look for the tightest group of the five and call that my load.

Here's what I do instead, and I'll explain why later: I look for the three groups of the five that come the closest to hitting the target in the same position. I noted that in this case, the three center groups were the ones which happened to hit the same POI, (all within about 3/4") with the 39.2 grain group hitting low and left from that common POI by an inch. The 40.4 grain charge, in addition to moving high and right of the common POI for the three center charges, opened up in size to about 7/8". The 39.2 grain charge shot about 1/2", but as I said, it wasn't near the common POI that the 39.5, 39.8, and 40.1 charges shared.

So I concluded that the best charge for this application was 39.8 grains of IMR 3031. This was the charge that would allow 39.5 grain charges and 40.1 grain charges to group right with it.

Why would I want that?

Well, variations in brass cases, powder lots, outside temperature--and other things can cause your load to increase or decrease in pressure. With the OCW load, you're covered for a significant amount of pressure differences that may come into play. If I'd gone with the 39.2 grain charge, a *slight* rise in pressure, brought on by an odd brass case or a hot day, etc., would have resulted in a 1 MOA deviation high and right of my POA.

I shot a 1.5" group at 300 yards with my .308 load with the 168 grain Sierra Matchking using one shot of 43.3 grains IMR 4895, one of 43.6 grains, and the third shot in the 1.5" group was charged with 43.9 grains. (The OCW being 43.6 grains, of course).

A group fired with my 30-06 at 335 yards consisted of loads all charged with 57.5 grains of H4350 pushing Sierra 165 grain Gamekings. One shot used a Remington brass case with CCI 200 primer, another used a Winchester case with that same primer, and the last load in the three shot group used a Winchester nickel case with a CCI BR primer. All three shots of this mis-matched trio came in at 2/3 MOA at 335 yards. (Update, I've since repeated this test for a five shot group consisting of two Remington cased loads, two Winchester nickel cased loads, and one brass cased Winchester load. Again with CCI BR and CCI 200 primers--again, the group broke 2/3 MOA. As an aside, the Remington cases weighed ten grains more than the Winchesters, but that wasn't enough difference to take the group outside MOA due to the pressure tolerance of the OCW load).

If you want to test the resilience of your own pet load, just load up a 1% increased charge, and a 1% decreased charge, and fire those two loads into a three shot group with the standard charge and see how it goes. In many cases, you'll find that either the low or high charge will group with the standard charge, but not both. This should at least tell you which way to go with redevelopment.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. How does one tighten the group after deciding on the OCW for their load? OAL adjustment is the way. Seating depth should be, in my opinion, the fine tuning tool used last, not first as is classically done. I've gotten kudos from Gerard Schultz of G.S. Custom bullets for this method of loading, as he says he uses a similar method wherein OAL adjustments are made last of all to tune for the tightest group.

Dan Newberry
green 788

Try one more bullet, the North Fork. It is the best super premium bullet being offered at the present time, in my opinion. Be sure to try the different bullet weights in your rifle, my experience has been that some barrels shoot a particular size better than all others. If your rifle will shoot the Partitions from Nosler well, you don't have a problem to start with. Some others may be tougher, but you will probably never know the difference unless you go to Africa. Good shooting.

I have no experience with TBBC's or Swift A-frames, but the Bartnes X has a reputation for "hunting" accuracy, but not much more! My best results have been with Nosler Partitions, both the old-style ones that were made on autonbmatic screw machines, and the new-style drawn & swaged ones. Both kinds of these bullets have given me accuracy equal to Sierras.

Swift A-Frames have shot well in every rifle I've tried them in, whereas the Barnes 'X' has NEVER shot well for me.

Do you always start with a clean bore when trying a new bullet? I don't mean regular clean, I mean stripped-to-the-bare-metal clean.

Some bullets won't shoot well in barrels fouled by other jacket materials.

George

I can't recall ever using a rifle that wouldn't shoot Nosler Partitions into respectable groups (currently have two rifles that are well under moa for 3 shots with full power hunting loads) and in most cases the Swift A-Frames actually did a little better. I have never been able to get any of my rifles to shoot BArnes-Xs or Fair-Safes into anything that resembled groups...more like patterns. I some friends whose rifles (some of them) shoot them into small holes but I've given up trying as they are too damn expensive and I got tired of buying Sweet's by the 6-pack.

Since you have not given much information as to cartridges you will be using on your hunt help will be limited. In this case your rifles tell you they do not like those bullets and will not shoot them well. Any rifle that does not like a given bullet will most likely never shoot that bullet well. It could be the twist rate in the rifle and the length of the bullet don't match. It could be the construction of the bullet is not compatable with the rifles twist rate. None of my hunting rifles like the Nosler partition bullet and will not group well with them. That being the case I do not try to use the Nosler Partition bullet. In my view one of the very best factory made copper jacketed lead core hunting bullets is the Remington Core-Lokt bullet. If your rifle like them they will put the game down when the time comes.
The Grand Slam bullet is a good brand of hunting bullet. All hunting bullets are made of a lead core and a copper jacket, or 100% copper. The copper jacketed lead core bullets have many different jacket thicknesses to control the expansion of that bullet at specific velocities in a given caliber.
Thick skinned heavy boned animals like Moose require a thicker jacketed bullet than a Caribou or deer. The Grand Slam bullet should handle Moose, Elk, Caribou or deer.
My experience has been to use the bullet my hunting rifle likes best that will work best on the Moose and also take the deer sized game animal with that same bullet.
It is best now for you to concentrate on bullet placement and let your bullet of choice do it's work. Know where to place that bullet on the game animal you will be hunting. Since I do not know what cartridge you will be using on your hunt I am not able to help you with your point of aim specs.
A good example would be using a 300 Winchester Magnum cartridge with a 165 grain bullet, point of aim should be 3" high at 100 yards to hold zero out to 400 yards with that cartridge and bullet weight.
Good luck, be safe, shoot straight, and always cherish the many wonders of nature.

Check out the following link,
http://www.lazzeroni.com/ct_accuracy.htm

Basically, it says that some bullets have harder jackets than other. The softer jackets conform better to the rifle bore and give better accuracy than the harder jackets. And, that the super premium bullets use hard jackets.

Hmmm...under what conditions are the super-premium bullets used? From what I've gathered, it's when we are either hunting game where deep penetration is a must (ie, large animals such as elk and moose), when hunting heavy-muscled/boned game, or when hunting with a cartridge delivering a terminal velocity over 3000 fps on thinner-skinned game (ie, magnum cartridges using medium-for-caliber bullet weights, especially at close range).

There might be some other conditions, but these two seem to be the most often encountered by the average hunter.

It's no secret one will not win bench-rest competitions using "X" bullets, Fail-Safes, TBBC's, etc...but a reloader should be able to get ~2-3 MOA with at least one brand of these specialized bullets. That level of accuracy is truthfully more than enough for the demands the average hunter needs.

I reason this way: 2-3" at 100 yds will easily put you in the lethal zone of most game out to 200 yds - this takes care of the "up-close with a mighty magnum crowd".

The lethal zone for an elk or moose is quite a bit bigger than that of a sheep or deer. 2 MOA will put the bullet in the lethal zone of an elk/moose out to 300-400 yds (if needed); 3 MOA will get you the accuracy needed out to ~250 yds. That's more than enough for the average hunter's shooting capabilities (of which I count myself as).

Personally, I'd be happy with 2-3 MOA with a super-premium bullet...elated with 1-2 MOA, and calling upon God and thanking for mighty blessings if my rifle/load combination using a super-premium consistently went 1 MOA or better.

I like my groups to be the smaller, the better, but I also don't ask more from a bullet than rifle/bullet combo can deliver, whether in terminal performance or in accuracy.

My reasoning might be off, but that's my $0.02...

TXLoader

[ 09-16-2002, 22:08: Message edited by: TXLoader ]

I've found a-frames to shoot identically to hornady spitzers of the same weight. I work up loads w/ the hornadies, and when I've found a good load, swap to the a-frame. There are a couple of caveats though. The partition of the a-frame raises pressures, so your velocity and pressure will be slightly higher, so ideally find an accurate load 1-2 grs less then max. The a-frame ogive is different, so you'll have to change your seater setting to get the same distance off the lands.

TXLoader,

That was a nice explanation of what level of accuracy is needed for hunting. 2 MOA is entirely adequate for deer and larger animals out to distances of 300 yards or so. People get hung up on trying to make bench guns from their hunting rigs, when the fact of the matter is that the animal won't know the difference if hit in the center of the vital kill zone, or 3" to the right.

I pick a bullet for it's expected terminal performance under the given hunting conditions, THEN I try to find an accurate load for it. If I can always shoot 5", 300 yard groups off of a bench with a hunting load, then I've got no more load development left to do. It then becomes a matter of practicing from field positons, and testing the actual bullet drop on targets from 50 to 400 yards, in fifty yard increments, to find out where I really need to zero it. Once again, the zero is based upon the situation.

I would much rather hunt deer, elk, bear, etc... with a Partition or X bullet with 2 moa accuracy than with a Ballistic Tip with 1/2 moa accuracy. I know Partiton and X bullets will penetrate to where I need them to, and I can put them in the vitals. I don't know if the BT's would penetrate as needed, even though I knew I could put them in the vitals.

6.5, I agree it is good enough for game shots, but not good enough for me. That's what being a rifle-nut does to you...... JMO, Dutch.

6.5 & tex have it right, an accurate bullet is great, but if it won't perform the task you ask of it, then what's the point. I have never been dissapointed w/ the NOsler part. in any of my big game rifles. I have only been able to get the 'X' to shoot from one rifle w/ most loads in other rifles averaging closer to 2". That would probably get you "minute of deer/elk" out to 300yds but I like a bit more accuracy if I can get it.
I think the area for the super premiums is in the magnum velocity, up close crowd. At 300yds many "standard" bullets will work fine, but fail @ 75yds on heavy game. That's why I keep using the Nosler P. It is just very predictable @ any range I care to shoot @ game (under 350yds). I have only recovered a single NP bullet in the 20+ animals taken form antelope to zebra. I know that's not alot but it is a perfect record for me so far.

GAHUNTER, they are called 'premium' bullets because they cost a premium. Does not mention anyplace that they are better bullets, i will stick with my 'non-premium' 'low class' hornady.

I nearly gave up on Barnes X until I realized that you can't load them like other bullets. As indicated elswhere, they are harder and longer than conventional bullets, therefore, they generate more pressure when using the same powder charge as a non-monolithic bullet of comperable weight. I get the same chroned speeds using as much as 2 grains powder less. Try using the data in the Barnes Manual. And, because theyare harder, they don't obturate (expand to fill the bore)as quickly. Setting them out to touch the lands causes pressure spikes, which affects accuracy. For that reason, I set them back .050 to start rather than closer up and work back only if necessary to max accuracyin the specific firearm. Using these proceedures and good case prep I routinely get 1 MOA in three rifles: 25/06, 7/08 and 280 as well as a 260, 100XPR
("hand cannon"). Another thing, because they retain weight and penetrate so well, I can load them 10 to 20 grains lighter than conventional loads, thereby reducing recoil and drop while retaining kenetic energy.
It may take some playing with to get used to loading 'em but the results are worth it. A dozen one shot kills (no animal went more than 50 yrds) speaks for itself.

Well, I have seen simular results for Scirrocs, bearclaw's and Barnes as you GA. But not for Nosler PT's. They usually work the best for me. And Grand Slams, never worked out for me. But I recently tried Barnes X moly and loaded them a little lower in COL than recommended and worked like a champ. Also, it is a very sensitive load. I started out with 3.3" COL out of my 270, and worked back slowly to 3.25". Really seems to shoot back that low. I have also known people that got dramatic results by going in .5grain increments. For example one load at Xgr got 2" groups, and another at X.5" got .8" or lower, and then back up after that. That part bothers me, cause I notice my loads fluctuating with different weather patterns.

As far as 2 or 3" groups being acceptable. It all a matter of opinion. Its a hobby so I usually put my all into it. I might be mediocre at work sometime but I try not to half ass my hobbies. Whats wrong with having a good accurate gun that you get satisfaction out of seeing clover leafs. Nothing in my opinion. Entirely acceptable behavor. I mean if I was to get those 3" groups, I might as well just stick with bow hunting. Just my opinion. I have always said if everyone was the same, we all be driving the same trucks, working the same jobs, shootin the same guns, etc, etc. Man, thats a boring ass life.