I think what you are seeing is the bronze brush remains. I think the instructions on the CR10 say to use a nylon brush. You should begin to see good results as soon as you do this. I learned a long time ago, it's usually better to follow the directions from the start. Ha. good luck

A rifle bore should be relatively clean. It doesn't have to be squeeky clean, but should be free of copper fouling. You should not use a bronze brush with ammonia. All you'll do is eat up the brush. You should start out using a bore solvent, Butch's, Shooter's Choice, etc. with patches and the bronze brush. Patch that out, THEN use the ammonia, apply it with a loose fitting patch. Let sit for no more than 10 minutes, patch out, look for blue/green on the patch. Repeat if needed. Or, use JB's paste to get stubborn copper out. Be sure to patch out any JB if you use it. And, be sure to oil the bore after using ammonia, it has no protection to it at all.

As stated, clean the bore with Shooters Choice (with a bronze brush) first for powder fouling and patch this completely dry. Then use CR-10 for copper and use it according to the instructions. Never use a bronze brush with CR-10. I use it all the time and it works great, but I use it per the instructions with a nylon brush. I leave CR-10 in the bore between 5 and 15 minutes. And do yourself a favor, get a quality bore guide. I like Sinclair's the best.



BTW, I came across a site a few months ago which describes how to make a homemade electronic bore cleaner for removing copper. I finally got around to making one for myself this past weekend and I was surprised that it actually seems to work. I made mine a little differently than the instructions though. I used a 1/8" metal rod I bought at Home Depot and I used O rings (1/4" OD, 1/8" ID) instead of heat shrink tubing as an insulator. I cut a V notch in each O ring so the ammonia could flow around em' a little better. I placed the O rings about 4 or 5 inches apart from each other. Make sure whatever you use as a chamber plug is not made out of metal. Rubber or plastic should work fine. Anyway, here's the link if anyone's interested:



http://members.rogers.com/snidey/borecleaner.html

Going back to the original question, good enough is when the accuracy is no longer improving.......

As far as the CR-10, in a factory barrel, there are enough nooks and crannies filled with copper, that I never was able to get a barrel completely clean. The guys are right though, get a jag and some patches and use that to put the CR10 in the barrel. Let the chemical do it's thing for 10 minutes, and patch out. You can use a nylon brush, but CR10 works chemically, not mechanically.

In the end, though, clean is not the goal, restoring accuracy is the goal. JMO, Dutch.

i poor solvent(Barnes CR-10) on a bronze brush then i run it through the bore a few times, let it sit for 30 seconds, run patches through until its dry. Then start the process again until i get tired of it, because it never seems to get completely clean. And after, i will run a patch with a bit of oil on it. thats about it
And no i dont use a bore guide.

JBD, I agree with you completely. And also, in regard to the previous poster, Wipeout does work really well on copper fouling.

It seems that how much i clean the bore of my guns there is always coper left over. the more i clean it the shinier it gets but it never seems to completely disapear. Is that normal?

I want to reload barnes bullets and you guys say that the bore must be free from fouling to shoot accurately???

I seems that for the bore to be free from coper you should clean it for 1/2 an hour between every shot.

Am i out to lunch on this topic or what??

If you answer the questions below, maybe some of the folks on this board can give you some pointers on where you can improve your cleaning procedure.

What method do you use to clean your bore? What solvents or other chemicals do you use in your process? Do you use a bore guide? Do you use just patches or do you also incorporate the use of a bronze or nylon bristle brush? If you use harsh solvents in your cleaning regimen, what do you use to neutralize those solvents? Do you oil the bore when you are done cleaning? Do you patch most of the oil out of the bore before using it again?

I take the same steps as big fish except that I do use a brush. I use CR10 occasionally, but the smell will kill you. And yes, some are lucky enough to come across a rifle/load combo that doesn't require a foul shot, but not usually like that.



Let's talk about barnes originals for a second though. As I understand it (other knowledgeable people please expound and correct/comment on this though), copper fouling is generally caused by the formation of plasma between the bullet and the wall of the barrel WHEN THERE IS NOT A PERFECT FIT BETWEEN THE BULLET AND BARREL meaning when there is a gap between the bullet and barrel. Solids or hard thick jacketed bullets do not always slug up perfectly and thus more formation of Cu ions (plasma) which then deposits as solid Cu. After a few shots, the barrel is coated with enough copper that the bullet can go through without any gaps so no plasma (I would think a little would though) forms and no more/little copper fouling occurs beyond this point. I loaded up the old X bullet for my Dad's rifle, and the thing took a few shots to warm up to them, and after that it shot excellent groups with them. I only cleaned his rifle with hoppes #9 and a nylon brush, and after many X bullets down the tube I looked down the barrel for the first time and noticed A LOT of copper. I put CR10 down there for 20 minutes and scrubbed the heck out of it. Took several shots to start grouping again. I then removed the copper again and this time shot regular jacketed soft points and there was little to no fouling and the rifle took only a couple foul shots. I now do minimal cleaning in 2 of my rifles, but my shilen select match barrel that does not foul much anyway likes to be scrubbed every 20 shots. I also talked to another gun nut here recently and he told me the same thing about barnes bullets down his barrel. He thought there was a problem with the barrel due to the serious fouling so he called the rifle company (Ruger) and they said it is not the barrel but the solid bullets and they told him themselves that barnes do not slug up correctly and copper foul much worse. The copper fouling in instances does not hurt since it is caused by plasma filling "the gaps". I feel the carbon fouling is the real culprit. Go to shilens web site, click on "frequently asked questins" (or the like), and go to cleaning, and they discuss the same thing. They say don't waste the time in removing all the copper becasue it is just going to be redeposited anyway and it really isn't harmful, though I don't know f I'm really convinced that after the copper fills the "gaps" from incomplete slugging that more isn't formed, and I feel removal of some is necessary.



Please, you other metallurgists and materials scientists expand on this/correct me. Noone has done so when I brought this up in the past. I just state it how I was taught, but I do know when using the barnes, I will not clean out the copper. I personally feel that the new TSX bullets allow full contact with the bore and are not as troublesome, and this is a big reason people are having better success with them.

I feel your pain and know your problem. I used to go through some of the most convoluted rituals for bore cleaning you can imagine. In fact some barrels seem to require real effort to shoot their best but most absolutely do not. I have a 270 that needs cleaning every 15 to 20 rounds to shoot its best but I also have a .338 that drove me nuts until I virtually quit cleaning it. The rifle now shoots minute of angle out to 500 yards consistently if I do my part but it will not shoot well until about 15 shots have been fired through it. My 7mm Ultra Mag was still shooting minute of angle after 77 rounds went down the barrel and I cleaned it anyway. Took about 12 rounds to settle it back down afterwards. My advice would be to let your rifle tell you when to clean. When groups start to open up, clean but until then let it alone unless the thing has been dunked in water or some other extraordinary circumstance is encountered. I am convinced far more rifle bores have been damaged due to excessive cleaning than have ever been "shot out". I feel the same basic way about barrel break in rituals. Shoot the danged thing! The barrel will break in. I know many will not agree with any of this but it comes from experience with more rifles than I can count over more than fifty years. If you disagree then have at it. Running endless patches down the bore until the last particle of fouling is removed can provide you with endless hours of constructive meditation. Good luck and good shooting.

The new foam cleaner called wipeout is awesome.