Is there a secret to setting these dies up correctly? The one I have, with the bushing (0.247") recommended by the agent after he measured the loaded cases I sent him, introduces about 0.002 - 0.004" runout from a fired case with max 0.001" runout before sizing. The cases are neck turned 22-250, neck wall 0.012". Chamber is standard.

I am also getting minute brass shavings.

The dies arrived with no instructions in the box.

Is the bushing supposed to be a little loose in the die body, or clamped tight by the decapping pin holder?

My first suspicion is that the bushing might be a tad too tight, I still have to load a couple of cases to see how tight the neck tension is.

pete

Allow the bushing to float a little. Not much, just enuff to relieve misalignment. In addition, I do not lock my dies' lockrings and allow the body to float for the same reason. This last item would not be needed with a Forster press.

Your seater can introduce this much runout, if you don't have one of the matching Redding seaters. What seating die are you using? Wilson would be OK, too, if you don't mind seating by hand. Forster seaters are OK, too.

How are you measuring the runout? On a sized, empty round? Maybe you are measuring after the cases were turned, but before they were fired once. Maybe you measured a loaded round as mentioned, before the case was fired and resized once.

Let me know, I use these all the time and get great results.

If you don't let the bushing float you can introduce runout. The instructions as I recall, advised tightening the bushing and then backing it off 1/8 turn. I also clean and lubricate the recess where the bushing fits. I have several which I use in a Coax press and they operate perfectly with zero runout. You might try running the case into the die, backing it out and then rotating the case 180� and running it in again.

if the bushing has to size down the fired brass more then .008"-.010" this can cause a problem.You may want to us 2 bushing, sizing in 2 steps instead of one. In a factory standard chamber you will be sizing down a lot. I use the Redding full length sizing type S bushing dies in my standard chambered 243win. with no problems. Are u using the expander button? The expander button is not needed when u are turning the necks. Use a little lub on the case necks also. Bushing should be loose in the die. The stamping mark/size on the bushing should be down. Size just enought of the neck to hold the bullet,just below the base of the bullet. The unsized part of the neck will expand and center the round in the chamber(fl sizing die).

I had the same problem with two sets of bushing dies. I tried sizing with the expander, without the expander and even using progressively smaller bushings, but never could achieve runout to my satisfaction. My problems were solved when I switched to the Lee collet neck die. And BTW, I use a Forster Co-Ax press.

Yes the bushing needs to float as others have pointed out. You may have the bushing in upside down causing the brass shavings, pull it apart, clean out any shavings or gunk in the bushing seat, and try again. I have found these to be the best and easiest to work with dies around, pity they don't make them in larger calibers.

I have found the Lee dies to be easier to work with because they require no case lubrication. Redding makes great stuff, though, I just didn't have any luck with their bushing neck dies. I use Redding Competition seaters, a Redding balance beam scale and Redding trickler among other things.

OK, boys, I've been contemplating the following question a while and here's as good a place as any: The idea of specific size neck bushings is great, I like the principle of just necking down to size, no expander, BUT, they are pretty damn expensive, especially when you're looking at several calibers--which is where I'm heading here. Why couldn't a guy have one generic die that accepted the bushings and use it for all kinds of different cartridges simply by putting in the correct bushing. Now, I already anticipate the response of the unsupported case leading to runout, but I question that. Seems like to me that the neck bushing wouldn't introduce any runout that wasn't already present. Granted, this approach wouldn't elliminate any runout, but I really don't see it introducing any. After all, as mentioned, the bushing is floating, allowing for movement as traditionally used in these dies anyway. Also, I ought to point out that I'm not looking toward benchrest accuracy, but hunting accuracy, i.e. about 1" groups at 100 yards are fine. The gain as I see it is greatly extended case life. Clue me in boys!

Pete,

Post all of the measurements that you can such as the diameter of a fired neck, sized neck, loaded round, and the same as turned. We can compare that data to rounds we have and see if there is overworking of the neck.

Shavings are not a good sign. There may be a defective bushing but more likely there may be a rough edge to the outside of the necks. Perhaps chamfering the necks on the outside may reduce the shock to the metal as the die comes in contact with it.

I have seen good runout measurments from all dies that fit right regardless of design.

Also measure the wall thickness of the necks and don't use the expander button as mentioned above. Lubricate everything well and in a uniform way.

Redding has an article on their website about bushing dies and runout - might be interesting?? ( Redding Article )
- mike

Pete--I forgot to address the shaving brass item.

I have occasionally cured this little problem by turning the bushing over or by using lube on the outside of the neck. Perhaps the entry radius is different on one end. My dies serve me well. I can see that you care about your reloads, so just keep after it. Sometimes on the second loading, the shaving stops. I could, as one fellow mentioned, also envision the problem being due to having to size the neck down quite a ways--that is one of the benefits of a tight-necked chamber.

On some rifles, I only size about half the neck so that the rest of the neck is relatively full sized and might center the case in the bore better.

Good Luck.

Guys, first off let me say that hands down this is the best forum going for a bloke to raise a problem and get it solved with some expert advice. Thanks to one and all.

OK First thing I did is I measured the OD of a fired case and it is 0.256". So I am sizing down a difference of 9 thou to 0.247". I think that is the basic problem.

Let me answer the questions in order:

Geoff(?) I am using a Forster Seating die, which works like magic. I am measuring the runout with a Forster Case inspector, which supports the neck, and the base.

Not the preferred method, but it is all I have.

I measure runout of a neck turned FIRED case, and get < 0.001" runout measured on the shoulder. Note this is not as Forster instruct, but I figger any runout you get at this point is going to be more amplified than if you measure it at the base of the neck as they recommend. So my chamber is very uniform.

I then size in the Redding, and measure the same case in the same way, and get anything from 0.002 to 0.005" runout at the shoulder.

What I have found is that if you take a FL sized cartridge, neck turn it, you will find that the neck turning operation introduces it's OWN run-out of 0.003 to 0.006", so back into an FL die it goes, with the expander button backed out.

243 Win XB - I am not using the expander button.

Savage99, OK I must get a micrometer, as my tired old eyes struggle to read a vernier. I am going to the range tomorrow so I generate some more brass to work on.

I'll post as soon as I get some data. The Vernier is not good enough for this level of work.

Arts, you raise a point. In fact I am getting S type dies for 300 Weatherby Mag and 280 Rem 40 deg Imp, in order to size 300 H&H and 7X64, of which Redding make neither die in S type.

I actually got a fit of pique and sized all the cases the Redding had ruined in a RCBS Competion FL Sizer with the expander button backed right the way out so that I expand while the neck is still in the neck portion of the die (Forster style). THIS TOOK THE RUNOUT FROM 0.004" BACK DOWN TO 0.002"!!!
By the way, whoever posted that idea about two weeks ago on this Forum deserves a Nobel prize of some sort. Thank you sir!!!

I even used my old Lyman neck sizer in the same way and results were just as good.

Straight from fired to sized both the RCBS Comp FL and the Lyman neck sizer gave less than 0.001" runout, using the expanding method outlined above. In other words they did not make the runout any worse than what it was.

There is a moral in there somewhere but I am too dumb to figger it out!!!

As far as the minute brass shavings are concerned, I think yes the cases could do with a chamfer, but what we are seeing is the edge of the bushing take off the minute ridges left by the neck turning (also done in a Forster). The Forster has a round edge cutting tool, so unless you are very very careful, you can leave a ribbed effect on the neck. Well if the first go ironed them out, they should disappear for keeps.

The upshot is I must either revert to using the die system I already have, or do 2 step sizing as recommended. I think a 0.251" bushing for openers?

Many thanks

pete

Pete,

When you shop for a mic. get one that reads in tenths. I am not really up to date on what's out there now as I have my late dad's stuff which are old Starrets, Brown & Sharpes etc that read tenths on the back using the vernier system. That system is not all that easy to read with bifocals.

I wonder at the runout readings that I get myself. If you look at most fired cases they have a bulge at the expansion web and it shows to one side due to the extractors pressing the case to one side as cartridge is fired. The CaseMaster has the case riding on that possibly eccentric expansion web and not the base or rim of the case which has to be rounder! This is another reason why I prefer the "S" type FL die to the bushing neck dies.

Savage,

I have checked the case with the dial gauge riding on the base, it is perfectly round. The rifle is a Sako and has no extractor issues I am aware of. Much thanks for the advice on the mike, I'll check 'em out when I am overseas in England. You can get good tools over there, cheaper than here in SA.

Pete

I use mostly Wilson NS knock-out dies, and a couple of Redding bushing NS dies. Both work well. I cut over to them gradually so I didn't feel the added cost too badly. I think they are well worth the money. If I feel a bullet is requiring too much force to seat easily I often order another bushing for the sizer, maybe .001 larger to make the bullet slide into the case with more ease. Sometime .002 is required. Case necks do thicken with time.
Usually there's enough room in the rifle chamber to allow this. That hard seating bullet can cause a pressure spike so it's best to avoid it. This is merely my own opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Pete, while I read your extensive reply, a few of thoughts came to mind.

1-Having to size down that far is one of the problems with a factory chamber. As far as I know, it cannot be avoided except by getting a custome rifle. In any event, if your necks are not absolutely uniform all the way around, the sizing ring or expander button will follow the weakness in the thinnest side of the neck--and so create an out of roundness. Combine this with a big chamber neck and it is a little less than desirable.

2-It is not altogether best to measure a case at the base of the neck or shoulder after it has been sized down and not fireformed. That is where the most distortion from the sizing ring is and will make you think that things are worse than they are. You should measure the runout of the loaded round as the final arbiter after fireforming. Been there, done that, as it were. I have often only partially sized the neck with neck ring dies and had no problem on cases that were fireformed, but then I only usually turn and partially size the necks on custom chambers. The Forster case inspector is capable of measuring the runout of a loaded round as referenced to the bullet. Fired cases are notoriously straight and we are worried about the runout induced by the loading process anyway.

3-If the case turning process is introducing runout, then fire the cases once to fireform and straighten them before you get cranked up about the numbers. Fire-forming cures many ills, as far as cases are concerned. It would ultimately work better than the RCBS die trick.

4-There are many digital vernier-type calipers available and digital mikes, too. Your eyes won't get nearly as tired with them as with analog types.

5-The case neck turners, not only Forster, do indeed induce the effect that you mention. That is, as you have surmised, the reason for not getting shavings on the subsequent loadings. It does no harm. Just make certain that your case necks are tight enough on the mandrel of the turner to require lubrication. Any slop here will cause you uneven results. I have, in the past, leaned on buddies with lathes to make mandrels that would give just the right fit. Nowadays, you can buy inside neck sizind dies and manrels from Sinclair in a variety of sizes so as to get it just right for the fit to your Forster mandrel.

Do not revert to the old style of loading, just stick to it long enuff to iron out the kinks. You'll like it.

George

Pete and others, who have ecountered shavings:

were you using the standard hardened steel bushings or the nitrited kind (brass like colour)?

I have severe brass shaving on my .222 cases using the Redding bushings. It starts as soon as I have to go .007 smaller than the fired dimension.
I have tried WW and RWS cases - same result.
I have tried lubing the case necks - no change.
I have turned the bushings around - no change.

I am now suspecting that it could be the bushing surface. I have the nirtited version. That may be harder than the standard steel, but maybe also rougher.

quote:

Originally posted by McFox:
....I am now suspecting that it could be the bushing surface. I have the nirtited version. That my be harder than the standard steel, but maybe also rougher.

Bingo! Got new standard steel bushings today. I sized the neck down by as much as .009 and NO SHAVINGS.

Redding bushing dies in my co-ax press work perfectly for me.
Delta if you are going to suggest Lee collet dies you should air out the fact that each stroke requires 25 lbs force be applied to the press handle (x2 actually as most guys squeeze, rotate the case then squeeze again), where with bushing dies hardly any resistance is felt at all. I did achieve good runout with Lee dies but it was very strenuous and I didn't like working my prized co-ax press that hard.

quote:

Originally posted by DeltaHunter:
I had the same problem with two sets of bushing dies. I tried sizing with the expander, without the expander and even using progressively smaller bushings, but never could achieve runout to my satisfaction. My problems were solved when I switched to the Lee collet neck die. And BTW, I use a Forster Co-Ax press.

I use the Redding S Type bushing dies and one thing that I found was that the decapping pin/expanding plug was giving me excessive runout. When the sizing plug was pulling out of the neck the brass wasn't stretching evenly and the necks wound up crooked.

I removed the decapping pin assembly and deprime on a dedicated depriming die now and it solved my problem.

I have 3 different brands of bushing dies and bushing. I also have several home shop made tools that are of higher quality than the commercial tool.
What I have found is the Redding bushing do not have a large enough edge radius on the bore edges. If your cases only expand .003 or .004 the Reddings might work ok if the case is aligned well with the bushing.
The Wilson bushings have a larger radius and the Wilson dies align the case well so they work well.
The Neil Jones bushings have an even larger edge radius and have never given any alignment or shaving problems.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
I have 3 different brands of bushing dies and bushing. I also have several home shop made tools that are of higher quality than the commercial tool.
What I have found is the Redding bushing do not have a large enough edge radius on the bore edges. If your cases only expand .003 or .004 the Reddings might work ok if the case is aligned well with the bushing.
The Wilson bushings have a larger radius and the Wilson dies align the case well so they work well.
The Neil Jones bushings have an even larger edge radius and have never given any alignment or shaving problems.

I also have the same three brands SR4759 mentions. His comments match my experience exactly.

SR