Have a question, I've set my full length die to partial full length resize by adj the die so the cartridge chambers in my 257 weatherby mag with a slight snug fit with the bolt closed of course. I just want to bump the shoulder back. Question is why does my die hit the shell holder with noticeable tension even without a cartridge on the ram. If I set the die to full length size I would adj it to just contact the shell holder however it's apparent the die is set lower than that when I adj it to partial full length sizing. Thanks for any explanations

Realize that there are tolerances built into any mechanical device and it is a miracle that they work as well as they do, given all the permutations of dies and shell holders made over the years. Anyway, when your shell holder hits your die, I like some cam over, then you are at the minimum length that your particular die will size. Any increase in the space between the shell holder and the die will result in less sizing. And sometimes partial sizing will make the brass base to shoulder length longer because you are reducing the diameter and the brass has to go somewhere. But your situation indicates that you have a minimum chamber and/or a max die, which results in a "feel" on bolt closing even when the shell holder is touching the die, hard. Like I said, manufacturing tolerances. In effect, you are FL sizing but your chamber is such that there is no extra room. If you unscrewed your die any, your brass would not chamber at all. Keep shooting; it is normal.

Pretty much what dpcd said.

Had a rifle a few years back that I had to take a file to the top of the shell holder to get it to bump the shoulder. The rifle never failed to chamber a factory case but had a few that were tight.

I have been using a Hollywood Senior press for 58 years. We have grown old together. When I screw a die down to touch the shell holder and then size a well lubed case there will almost always be a gap between the die and the shell holder. The press is actually flexing up to .008" and to get the die and holder to touch while FL re-sizing the die has to be screwed down farther.
The effect varies greatly between, say, a .222 and a .358 x .375 Ultra mag. I frequently do not FL resize ,but come close. roger

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Realize that there are tolerances built into any mechanical device and it is a miracle that they work as well as they do, given all the permutations of dies and shell holders made over the years. Anyway, when your shell holder hits your die, I like some cam over, then you are at the minimum length that your particular die will size. Any increase in the space between the shell holder and the die will result in less sizing. And sometimes partial sizing will make the brass base to shoulder length longer because you are reducing the diameter and the brass has to go somewhere. But your situation indicates that you have a minimum chamber and/or a max die, which results in a "feel" on bolt closing even when the shell holder is touching the die, hard. Like I said, manufacturing tolerances. In effect, you are FL sizing but your chamber is such that there is no extra room. If you unscrewed your die any, your brass would not chamber at all. Keep shooting; it is normal.

What he said!
Zeke

Free service to any AR member; send me your die, or shell holder, if it is not sizing enough and I will lathe turn some off it, with a carbide bit. Please stop filing on them.

quote:

Please stop filing on them.

Would never file on a die. But a couple $$ shell holder is something I have no issue with. Yes your method is a heck of a lot cleaner. But it always seemed like I needed it yesterday.

By all means take dpcd up on his offer. It will took planned vs bubba'd

DPCD: Thank you for the offer to the forum. I will probably not avail myself of the offer due to most everything fitting. However, its people like you who make this such a great place.

I, too, come across minimum chambers and dies that do not 'bump' the shoulder enough, it always seems to be Redding series 'd' dies, mostly.
I do not touch the die, rather, I will buy a shellholder of the correct size, machine .010" off the TOP and keep that shellholder permanently with those dies. Adjustment is the same as with a non modified shellholder, cam over may be more pronounced, but this is not a problem, contrary to many beliefs, camming over does not wear or stress the press, it is only taking up the play in the linkage system.

Cheers.

You might just try another sizer die or shell holder to see if that helps...I've had/now have rifles that do what you describe and I now have a Ruger223 and 308 that work with only one sizer and shell each, two different brands. I have probably 6 sets of 223 and 308 dies, all brands, FL, NS and bushing.

"FILE" a die???? I've never been able to file a die OR a shell holder except the odd, very old "orange box" brand and/or few Lee dies. I seem to need my die grinder, carbide tool or a grind stone set up in my mill.

Whether or not you get gapitis or break one depends on what type of press you have...C, H, or O. I regularly broke the old Herter's bullet swaging C type press before I figured out you "DON'T BREAK OVER THE TOP" and I don't do it even with my RCBS ROCK CHUCKER, Foster Co-ax or Orange Crusher. I don't seem to have any trouble forming resizing any of the many wildcats I've built over the years.

I run the press ram to the top, screw in the die to touch the shell holder, drop the ram down and screw the die in another turn, then check to make sure the ram WON'T BREAK OVER THE TOP and the die contacts the shell holder firmly.

It's an easy matter to check the headspace with a headspace gauge and to maintain that headspace throughout the reloading process.

Some of the sharper shouldered case need to be watched closely as that last little bit of shoulder sizing can fool you with a false sense of complete sizing when you still have a good 0.005" or more to go.

A small amount of resistance on bolt closing can be a good thing depending on the fit between the chamber and sizer as long as it is CONSISTENT. I set my target/varmint rifles up with ~0.002" "crush" when I cut the chambers(hopefully, but don't hit that all the time) and use oversized Redding shell holders or "trim" as needed. Cases seem to last forever as long as I have polished/fit the die/rifle chamber and keep magnumitise as bay.

Do a search here on AR as this subject is well covered with lots of excellent information from very knowledgeable reloaders.

A bit of cam over will not harm any press; you must have really set it up to HARD cam over if you are breaking presses. Of course, you don't always need to do that; only to get the max sizing possible.

Different "strokes" for different folks, Hey...pun intended...every experienced reloader has developed their own way of doing things and I doubt you could hurt any of the top-of-the-line, heavy duty presses barring getting after it with a hot wrench. Being a mechanic/welder/fabricator, I know that mechanical leverage and pressures increase quickly when that ram snaps over...all the way through the linkage system and casting. Read somewhere long ago that it isn't a recommended practice in at least one presses paperwork and accidentally doing it just rankles me when setting up a die for the first time.

I've only busted the old Herter's who-knows-what-steel bullet swaging press. I got maybe 2 accidental, after the first couple of snapped neck break-overs, while setting up. I would send back the pieces and they would send me a new one.

Never had any trouble with O and H type presses "springing" but have noted it in one 4 position, at least 50 year old, Lyman turret press(I think) and no matter what I did I couldn't get accurate, precision sizing even by locking down the center bolt...although it worked OK for seating...the press disappeared somewhere during some move. Wish I had it back.

Always lots of ways to skin the beasty, the object being getting at the steaks and the BBQ working.

Thank you all for the info. When I set my die so it just contacts the shell holder ex. full length sizing the brass chambers and bolt closes very easily, but to partial full length size my die is actually lower than full length sizing and contacts the shell holder with a fair amount of tension.

quote:

but to partial full length size my die is actually lower than full length sizing and contacts the shell holder with a fair amount of tension

Guess I missed that. Now you have me really But that is easy to do

How are you determining how to set your die for a partial? Something isn't right

I set the die so it just contacts the shell holder then I back it off a turn or two. I start sizing and adj the die in small increments until the cartridge chambers with a slight crush fit.

Yeah...me too????? I would have to see this to believe it, barring flex in the press frame/linkage. Break out your camera for some close-ups.

This is where following the information from the die makers get us in all kinds of trouble...you really can't produce accurate/precise, straight ammo by "partially" resizing, I don't care WHAT you read...all you will do is produce crooked ammo.

I've ran umpteen tests over the past 40-50 years using several brands and types of NK, FL, bushing, Wilson and Lee type "hammer"/arbor press types for several benchrest and HIGHLY accurate target rifles...enough to satisfy reloading the way I've outlined produces the most accurate/precise ammo MOST of the time. I constantly ask why this works and that doesn't...hey, that was a cool idea, why didn't I think of that...Naw, that's krap, well maybe not...tried it and it worked

Most people don't realize just how crooked the ammo they produce actually is both radial and axially not to mention the case base being non-parallel and non-perpendicular to the action centerline and bolt centerline.

ANY amount of "crush fit" either bolt face to chamber shoulder or bullet touching lands many times squares and aligns the round to the bore centerline.

If you're out just to poke some edible beasty then all this fidgety work is pretty much wasted as are all the verbiage.

What you want to do is expend 90% of your effort on developing the TOTAL SYSTEM to 90% level of accuracy and leave that 10% fiddly work for those that want to win ALL the matches. The average off the shelf rifle/brass/bullets, even those that seem to be super accurate some of the time, are NOT able to extract that last few percentage points to produce bugholes group after group.

Basically, the only way to get a grip on what is actually required to produce accurate ammo is to constantly question what and how you and your tools are working together, making a ton of mistakes by NOT questioning/wondering and overlooking the small things by not saying "BOOLSHEET, something's not working right"...he lied...he don't know squat.

Consistency is the name of the game...just like bowling, pool and horse shoes.

OP, please come back and clarify; read what Ram said; you can't possibly set your die lower for a partial size than for a FL size. It don't work that way.

quote:

Originally posted by dwatson:
I set the die so it just contacts the shell holder then I back it off a turn or two. I start sizing and adj the die in small increments until the cartridge chambers with a slight crush fit.

This is the correct way to partially resize a case so it headspaces on the shoulder rather than the belt (as in this case with a magnum belted Weatherby) but when doing this you should use an unsized case after each adjustment so that the die setting is sizing a fully unsized case each time as it will be once you are happy with the headspacing and the bolt just closes snuggly.

If you use the same case each time i.e. a case that is being sized in small increments with each die adjustment then the 'spring' of the press is not the same as when sizing a case in one hit as you will be doing when the die is finally set and locked. If you do not set your die up this way you suddenly find after sizing and loading your cartridges that they are tight to chamber just when you thought you had set everything up properly, been there and done that.

Another phenomenon which could happen with Weatherby brass with the double radius shoulder is that the shoulder can crush and bulge slightly giving the impression the die needs adjusting down more to get the case sized when in fact the die has been set past the partial resize point for the very radiused shoulder on the Weatherby case.

When sizing belted cases to headspace on the shoulder I watch the lube on the neck and it is easy to see the point where the case has had the full neck length sized before the shoulder is touched.

I have loaded a lot of 7x61 S&H brass over the years and this cartridge is one that almost has a double radiused shoulder like the Weatherby and there is definitely a point of diminishing return when partially sizing these steep shouldered cases.

I have a choice, I have presses made by different manufacturers. My Herter presses cam over, all of my Herter presses are cam over press, that makes them bump presses. I have at least 3 Rock Chucker presses, none of my Rock Chucker presses cam over, if they did the cam over would wreck my Piggy Back 11 Attachments.

My presses are designed to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. It would help if a reloader knew the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder. When the case does not get shoved into the die when the ram is raised the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die indicates the amount of the case that did not get sized. Problem, r4eloaders do not know the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder.

Then there is the additional 1/4 turn of the die beyond contact with the shell holder. The additional 1/4 turn lowers the die about .017". The additional 1/4 turn increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing. I use a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and case head. The shell holder allow me to reduce the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder, that allows me to form/size cases for short chambers or it allows me to increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

Then there is lube, I use RCBS 11 on cases that that can be sized with any lube, then there are the difficult to size cases, for difficult to size cases I use a no-name lube.

Then there is the Redding Competition shell holder, I have one set. My one set is for belted magnums, I paid $5.00 for the set. I do not use them but I have them 'just in case'. I have never found it necessary to grind the bottom of the die or top pf the shell holder. When things do not work I measure the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder.

F. Guffey

quote:

just want to bump the shoulder back. Question is why does my die hit the shell holder with noticeable tension even without a cartridge on the ram

When adjusting the die to partially size I back the die off, there are times I make the adjustment with a feeler gage. For example: I have a 30/06 chamber that is .011" longer than a go-gage length chamber. When forming/sizing cases for that chamber I adjust the full length sizing die off the shell holder .014" with a feeler gage. Then instead of 30/06 cases I use 280 Remington cases. Can't miss, the Remington 280 case is longer from the shoulder to the case head than the 30/06 case by .051".

F. Guffey

If you want to accurately bump back the shoulder, get a set of Redding competition shell-holders and forget everything you ever heard about screwing out the die to partially size a case. There is so much spring in a press, and so much variation in the sizing effort from case to case that that a lot of people are kidding themselves about the degree of control they are exercising over their sizing.

As I've said many times, we need to quantify and qualify questions and answers to keep things straight.

I see no reason to "partially resize" ANY case for ANY reason as most of those reasons fall into the "old wives tails".

Several posters have pointed out(somewhere on AR) as did Dogleg the vagaries of why this really doesn't work well, BUT, because those that do it are "usually" concerned with "hunting accuracy" rather than
"target" accuracy and it really doesn't matter except for argument sake.

Each rifle is an individual and responds to varying levels of accurizing as a SYSTEM to produce varying levels of accuracy and accuracy is an INDIVIDUAL assessment...what you think as accurate might be my "toss that stinkin' POS".

All this krap about "bump back" arrived on the scene when some gun writer picked it up from the benchrest crowd I think...YOU have to test out what YOUR specific rifle likes...a few of my target shooters liked 0.002-0.005" of "crush" when chambered, most liked about the same clearance and would scatter shots when "crushed". I don't recall that being called "crushing" in the old days...I called it "bolt resistance on closing" and the amount depended in the case brass hardness which showed up while sizing, then measuring the shoulder length.

While it IS EFFECTIVE and can increase the accuracy and case longevity in some accurate TUNED rifles, it's actual factory efficacy only falls into the "something to talk about" around the campfire with most factory rifles.

I've ran many tests using my highly accurate benchrest shooters, very accurate(with specific load combinations) hunters and old military dogs to see just what all this fiddly work actually does.

To get my benchresters and varminters shooting bugholer I HAVE to do ALL fiddly work ALL the time. For the rest fitting the sizer to the chamber, using the Redding Competition shell holders or one I fitted, FL resizing, tuning the brass once and weighing the bullets to eliminate oddball weights goes farther to keep the individual rifle shooting straight than just worrying about "bumping back the shoulder"...any imagined increase in accuracy was more in my dreams than in actuality in any un-tuned factory or "old dog" rifle.


There is NO magic individual "bullet or action" that turns a rifle from an "also ran" into a "money winner"...it takes continued hard work both in tuning the rifle and tuning the ammo to keep it shooting small groups.

All this "whisky fumes around the campfire" is a very important part of the hunting/shooting experience and is one way to learn the old and the new.


F. Guffy...been there, done that, but, if you would make a washer shim(a 1/2" grade 8 hard washer might just work perfectly) or buy a Redding shell holder it would be much easier and MUCH more precise and doing so would also straighten out any slightly crooked cases...just sayin'. Same thing works great for seating various weights of bullets without having to constantly reset seating stem length.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Yeah...me too?????

This is where following the information from the die makers get us in all kinds of trouble...you really can't produce accurate/precise, straight ammo by "partially" resizing, I don't care WHAT you read...

Been doing it for a long, long time. And if you have shot bench rest, you know that until recently, the bench rest kits for reloading were quite similar to a simple Lee Loader. Not too many years ago, I watched a lady resize her cases with a die and a plastic mallet; she charged the cases from a Tupperware bowl of powder using a dipper. She struck the dipper off even with a plastic credit card. IIRC, she finished third.

quote:

F. Guffy...been there, done that, but, if you would make a washer shim(a 1/2" grade 8 hard washer might just work perfectly) or buy a Redding shell holder it would be much easier and MUCH more precise and doing so would also straighten out any slightly crooked cases...just sayin'. Same thing works great for seating various weights of bullets without having to constantly reset seating stem length.

The Redding competition shell holder adds .010" maximum height to the shell holder from the deck of the shell holder to the top of the shell holder. My chamber is .016" longer from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face than a minimum length/full length sized case. Sizing cases for that chamber is effortless, there is no stress or strain on the press.

"been there, done that" ? I believe the competition shell holders are nice, again, I have one set, I paid $5.00 for the set. 3 of the shell holders are off by .001" each, for me? Not a problem. The feeler gage is my companion tool to the press, I could spend $40.00 a set for the Redding competition shell holders or I can use a feeler gage. With a feeler gage I can size cases for short chambers, with a feeler gage I can size cases for long chambers, I can go from .017" shorter than a go-gage length chamber to infinity+, or a more practice.016"+ than the length of a minimum length sized case. That is 28 different chamber lengths, The Redding competition shell holder set includes 5 different lengths. Again, the Redding competition set is nice, and I do not find it necessary to grind the top pf the shell holder and or bottom of the die.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by dwatson:
Have a question, I've set my full length die to partial full length resize by adj the die so the cartridge chambers in my 257 weatherby mag with a slight snug fit with the bolt closed of course. I just want to bump the shoulder back. Question is why does my die hit the shell holder with noticeable tension even without a cartridge on the ram. If I set the die to full length size I would adj it to just contact the shell holder however it's apparent the die is set lower than that when I adj it to partial full length sizing. Thanks for any explanations

We live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and this effects our chambers and dies, meaning the amount of shoulder setback or "bump".

Example my Lee full length .223 die will push the case shoulder back .009 shorter than the GO gauge and .011/.012 shorter tham my AR15 chamber. On top of this this same die sizes the base of the case smaller in diameter than my small base die does.

Shoulder setback or bump is just a word, and your dies are adjustable up and down for a custom fit in your chamber.

Below is a exaggerated illustration of full length resizing, as you can see you can under resize the case and make it "LONGER" than the chamber. (blue dotted line) Or over resize the case and set the shoulder back too far (green dotted line) And you can adjust the die to give you minimum shoulder setback (bump) a few thousandths below the red dotted line for a custom fit in your chamber.



Bump is just a word and many dies will push the shoulder back too far when setup per the dies instructions.

Below on the left is a Redding competition shell holder that pushes the case into the die .004 "less" than the RCBS shell holder on the right. The competition shell holder gives me .003 shoulder bump and the RCBS shell holder would give me .007 shoulder bump if setup per the instructions.

The Redding competition shell holders still allow the die and shell holder to make hard contact and have the press to cam over. This will give you more constant shoulder to base measurements with less brass spring back.

I have Redding CSH for 0.473" cases in +0.015, +0.020" and +0.025", 223 size in +0.013" and 0.017", Mag in +0.013" and 0.022" and Lapua/Rigby in +0.015" to "fit" my various calibers/cases.

Redding charged me $17.50 for the last plus size I bought but noted they were going to stop custom making them over +0.015" so if you want some strange thickness you might contact them first.

Yeah...various brands show variation in all the thickness of the rim...I have a box full of shell holders and Lee "spinner" holders and used to buy any loose ones I could find at gun shows.

The amount of sizing and "spring back" is a function of the metallurgy of the brass, age and amount of "work" done to the brass, amount of annealing and a few other factors only "Died/dyed in the wool" target shooters get excited about and it changes with each firing of the case. For the average once, twice a year hunter it is just something interesting to talk about while passing the time.

Yes, Wasbeeman, and I still have and use several Wilson "hammer in" AND Lee type old timey die sets along with Wilson DAMNED EXPENSIVE Micrometer seaters, fancy tiny arbor presses and a couple of monsters I use for a couple of rifles and they STILL won't straighten crooked brass...they WILL resize the neck and seat a bullet straight which is more important...Unless a rifle is benchrest built the bolt face is liable to be several thou out of square with bore centerline which causes the case to get UN-square every firing due to pressure and the only way I've found to square the base back up is by running into a sizer die and using the pressure of the press to square things up.

Of course the ram needs to be square and perpendicular to the die holes and the threads must be square...etcetera, etcetera, etcetera..

No one believes because hardly anyone takes the time to actually ask the questions THEN answer them by testing the thesis themselves. If they did then there wouldn't be so many bones of contention, arguments or jive BS on this forum...doncha think????

WHAT/HOW did the first and second shooters load their ammo or did they prep at home? No one cares about anything except first place and WHAT/HOW they did what they did.

I have custom dippers for several straight walled rifle and pistol cases and if you know what your doing and practice a lot you can "dip" and be as accurate as a powder measure...maybe not as precise as Culver style, but plenty good enough to stick one in your eye at 50 long paces.

Nothing wrong with using Tupperware...my favorite open container for holding powder when I "dip" is a 2 cup clear Tupperware container whose top went by the wayside MANY years ago that holds my Lee dippers when not being used for holding powder...it will hold a pound of powder handily and the top squeezes nicely so I can pour the unused powder back into the original container without using a funnel.

MANY OLDIES went down that road in the past, but now, due to CNC machinery and all that past knowledge getting recycled into new tools ANYONE can produce much more precise and accurate ammo by accident than I did those tens of years ago and I can do the same half asleep.

quote:

I just want to bump the shoulder back. Question is why does my die hit the shell holder with noticeable tension even without a cartridge on the ram.

You are in charge, if you want the die to contact the shell holder when the ram is raised, adjust the die an additions fraction of a turn after contact. The most popular fractions are 1/4. 1/2. 3/4 and one. I do not use wild guestimates, I skip the fractional turn and go straight to thousandths.

There is a maximum amount of sizing a die and shell holder can accomplish. Once the die contacts the shell holder the shoulder of the die cannot get closer to the deck of the shell holder, meaning there is no press that can crush the die and or shell holder.

The case can have resistance to sizing, if the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome the press stretches/flexes. A reloader can determine if the press failed to overcome the case's ability to resist sizing by measuring the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. If there is a gap the reloader can exercise the option of adding a fractional turn of the die to increases the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing, a good lube helps.

It is possible to measure the die and shell holder's ability to size a case, meaning a reloader can measure the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder.

F. Guffey

.0714 per full turn on 14 pitch

.009 per 1/8 turn

Measure a 1X or 2X fired case from the C/L datum of the shoulder across to the rear of the case head

Record this number for reference for years to come

Now back you're die one full turn off the shell holder and size a case in 1/8 turns until you physically measure your shoulder has "bumped" moved back.

It really is JUST that simple

quote:

It really is JUST that simple

Ted Thorn, I agree.

F. Guffey

quote:

.0714 per full turn on 14 pitch.009 per 1/8 turnMeasure a 1X or 2X fired case from the C/L datum of the shoulder across to the rear of the case head

YEARS ago. I made up a ring that would slip on the base of the die and allowed me to then mark the bottom of the die in 1/8 turns. I then recorded the mark and stored it with the die. Dies for one rifle I even marked the die. Dies for multiple rifles just had a cheat sheet in the die box.

Sometimes we just try and make this was too complicated.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!! Paul...I won't tell the gyrations I've gone through and the measuring tools I've made to setup dies or adjust seating stems...Stoney/Hornady hand home made eadspace gauges make that measurement SOOOOOOO simple.

And this thread also points out that there is a very wide chasm in the understanding of reloading, mechanical, and physical principals inherent in this sport and also the fact how DIFFICULT it is to describe HOW to do things so that everyone, including the all the OP's, fully understand.

I've described "JUST HOW SIMPLE" including pictures of how to use headspace gauges on this forum and several others, SEVERAL TIMES, but instead of doing a search for information most people just ask a question and want/expect a quick and dirty, complete answer that describes a process from beginning to end in 5 words or less, or something near that.

Even with You-tube how-to visuals and beautiful color pictures of every step in many manuals, some people just don't quite understand just how simple this process is.

That's OK...there are plenty of things I don't quite understand and I have to work at it to get a glimmer.

Like a high school physics teacher told me when I whined "I don't understand...", his words, "if you know the material IT'S EASY, if you don't, IT'S HARD...READ YOUR BOOK AND ANSWER THE CHAPTER QUESTIONS". When I did that, physics became so easy.

A whole lot of this reloading/gunsmithing process is dimensionally visual and in the minds eye...you need a bit of spatial cognition to fully understand the process.

quote:

Sometimes we just try and make this was too complicated.

And Ted Thorn said "it is just that simple" and I agreed.

What could be more simple than skipping all the wild guestimates by going straight to verifying. We are talking about the inclined plane. How uncomplicated can the incline plane be?

F. Guffey

True, true, f. Guffey...but try to explain to someone with limited mechanical expertise that a screw is nothing but an "uncomplicated" inclined plane and going straight to the verifiable isn't all that simple either, otherwise these questions wouldn't keep popping up.

That is the turd in the punch bowl...what is simple to one is totally incomprehensible to another. Even if the simple measuring tools were right in front of some reloaders, by the questions I've read, they wouldn't know HOW to begin even assembling them much less using them to do the simple measurements properly.

I'm bald from continuously scratching my head over some of the questions AND answers I've come across on shooting forums...what to me is obvious is a Picasso to another.

All the cognoscente need to be mindful of this painful fact.

quote:

True, true, f. Guffey...but try to explain to someone with limited mechanical expertise that a screw is nothing but an "uncomplicated" inclined plane and going straight to the verifiable isn't all that simple either, otherwise these questions wouldn't keep popping up.

According to you 'it can not be done'.


"That is the turd in the punch bowl..." ?

Forum members have a very bad habit of going straight to 'bench resters'. Do it like a bench rester or 'here is how we did it at Aberdeen'. There is no better place to start than with the incline plane and how it relates to threads. Nothing is more uncomplicated then the threads in the press and threads on the die. The die is solid. When the die is raised off of the shell holder the top increases in height above the press the/ an equal amount.

I am not the one that believes new reloaders should jump into it in a dead run. It is the nature of reloading forums to encourage new reloaders to purchases the latest gadget before they understand the basic die and shell holder.

Just an observation but there are forum members that are widely indigent about 'almost' everything.

F. Guffey

DON'T have a clue where "according to you 'it can't be done'" came from out of my posts...and "indigent"...did you mean "indignant"?

Doesn't matter this thread seems to be degenerating into some personal whatever so I will sign off.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:


Sometimes we just try and make this was too complicated.

It does make one wonder how folks were able to load hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of rounds of good accurate ammo using just a Lee loader without a warehouse of "thingies" .

quote:

. I just want to bump the shoulder back. Question is why does my die hit the shell holder with noticeable tension even without a cartridge on the ram.

You are in charge, if that happened to me I only have myself to blame. All of my dies have lock-nuts, most reloaders secure the lock-nut to the die. I secure the die to the press with the lock nut after adjusting the die to, or off or beyond the shell holder. Again the lock-nut is not a stop nut.

"I just want to bump the shoulder back. Question is why does my die hit the shell holder with noticeable tension...?"

First loosen the lock nut, install the die and then adjust the die until it contact the shell holder with the ram up. After making contact with the shell holder hold the die to prevent it from moving then secure the lock-nut.

You are in control, you can adjust the die to the shell holder, that works but the case can have resistance to sizing, to overcome the case's ability to resistance sizing it is necessary to increases the presses ability to overcome the case's resistance to sizing. In the perfect world we would all be using new unfired cases. Problem, manufacturers do not manufacture cases for reloaders with different length chambers from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face. Cases are available that can be described as 'one size fits all'.

To improve the presses ability to overcome the case's ability to resistance a good lube is necessary.

There are shims and shell holders and grinders. I do not find adding shims between the top of the press and lock nut necessary, again, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, I secure the die to the press with the lock-nut.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:


Sometimes we just try and make this was too complicated.

It does make one wonder how folks were able to load hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of rounds of good accurate ammo using just a Lee loader without a warehouse of "thingies" .

I do not wonder, I have some of the old Lee equipment, I also have old equipment made by other manufacturers. Some of the old equipment came with instructions, my instructions that came with the old hammer in/hammer out dies made it clear, when I hammered a case into the die I was not full length sizing, I was neck sizing only. some of the old Lee equipment came with a neck reamer.

F. Guffey

I cannot imagine breaking a press with a hand lever or a stick of dynamite for that matter.must have been a flaw in the steel..

I use a 70 year old massive chunk of iron on a six inch piller called a Hollywood something press! it won't break..I also use a single stage A2 RCBS and it comes with a 50 caliber conversion unit that I have never used, and don't think its breakable..

I would not file the bottom of a die, but would file the case holder down until I got a full length resize to fit my rifle. I could ruin a case holder if you had to go to far, but that means you need to return the die to the maker..I use my rifles to hunt with for the most part therefore I don't normally neck size to the chamber, I like that little bit of slop as I prefer function and reliability to all else within reason.

When I do set a die for partial resizeing then I burn the neck with a sulfer match (wood) and take it down a bit at a time trying it in the rifle as I go until I get just a ever so snug fit that I can just barely feel, and I stress barely keeping in mind the many such fitted cases that I have seen work well with 19 loads out of a box but fail with say no. 20..OK on varmints and targets, not for big game hunting.

Of course one that prefers partially sizeing necks should try every load in his rifle to prevent failure..I have never found partial sizeing to be of any real benefit as to accuracy or case life for that matter..mostly in the mind of the shooter.