I have lost count of the number of times ive heard "MAGNUM" owners say they can always "down load " to suit a situation were a zillion f.p.s is not required.

Well ?? Lets hear from you ?? I reckon its all talk

If you are the kind of guy how feels the need to but a 7mm REM MAG or a .338 WIN MAG i hardy think you are going to "down load" lets face it a ruddy great bang !a walloping kick and a sheet of flame are what floats your boat !! and each to his own.

But im curious as to how many of you really "down load" and what powders you use .......

Englander

.338 Win Mag, 13 gr. Unique, 230 gr. cast bullet.

I sometimes make loads for my .375 H&H with a 255gr lead flat-nosed bullet and 12-15 grains of Red Dot.

13grains of Red Dot gives 1310fps in a 25 inch barrel. Feels and sounds a bit like a rimfire .22 -- until you see the clouds of sand it kicks up! Kills well, but quietly.

I also load my 7mm Rem Mag and 358 Norma Mag down similarly sometimes, but they are not as much fun to downlaod as an elephant rifle.

The .358 Norma can be loaded down and shot with .357" revolver bullets too If you download only a bit, those 125gr hollow points intended for 1300fps are explosive at 2400fps (and shot faster they are darn near nuclear).

jpb

[ 06-02-2003, 18:54: Message edited by: jpb ]

I use Blue dot loads in my 223, 700x loads in my 7mag, and "light" 3031 200 gr. loads in my 35 Whelen.

Why get beat up when all you want to do is some off-hand practice? JMO, Dutch.

12 grains of Unique behind a 300 grain lead bullet in my 45-70. No Dacron or cornmeal or any other such crap. 1200 f.p.s., very accurate.

H. C.

Englander. Rifle magazine once got so many requests for "downloading" the magnums that writer John Wooters wrote an article on the subject. As an example, he said how to make either the .300 Weatherby or Winchester magnums in acting like they were 30-06, .308, 30.30 and even 32-20, IIRC. I can't recall how many times I've passed that data on to people who ask me for the data. I also tell them which issue (number and date) so that they can try and get a back copy for themselves.
As for me, my .300 Win. Mag. and .338 Win. Mag. stay as magnums. I do load a 270 gr. cast bullet with 49.0 gr. of IMR-4895 and a tuft of dacron in my .375 H&H though. Recoil is a bit more than a 30-06, and I use it for practice in speed loading the Ruger #1 single shot. It's a good deer load too.
BTW, the article is called "Stairstep Loading the Magnums."
Paul B.

I personally don't believe in "downloading" anything.

None of my friends do it, and I sure as hell don't do it.

Plus, I don't know too many people who buy a Ferrari and then pullout 6 sparkplug wires, or a Hummer and then take off the tires, or a 60" television and then put duct tape over 2/3 of the picture.

Steve, that is an asinine analogy.

Let me turn it around. All the Ferrari owners you know run there rig at full power, all the time? Or drive their Fiat if they do not need all that power?

Power, judiciously applied, there when you need it, not when you don't. Ferraris are not so different from guns. FWIW, Dutch.

.45-70 with 12.0gr Unique, half a cotton ball and a 300gr cast bullet. One hole groups in my Marlin Guide Gun at 25yds.

Neatest thing was shooting this load the other day at a friends 200yd handgun silhoutte ram targets. He was shooting, I was manning the 40X spotting scope. I kept seeing these bumble bees flying around the target just after he'd shoot. One of them eventually ran into the target and knocked it down! We never did manage to hit his 300yd gong with it, we used too many on the Rams and ran out before we got the elevation down at 300.

Rick

I was witness to a gun trade a couple of years ago in a local gun shop. A friend of mine was trading a one year-old Browning in 300 WinMag for an identical gun in .308Win and paying $200 to boot. His reason for the trade was that he deer hunted, standing up in his tree stand and the 300 WinMag was too much gun in that situation. I butted in and told him that he could download the 300WM to .308 levels to reduce the recoil and got a very unusual answer. His reply was, "Why would anone want a 300WM that didn't shoot any harder than a .308?" He didn't realize that he could have lower recoil when he wanted it, or that he could have full power if he ever decided to go after bigger game. He made the trade anyway, with the dealer smiling all the way to the bank.

Some people just don't understand.

Nashcat

I don't have a magnum; just a 30-06. My full power load uses a 125 grain speer TNT over a full charge of 4064. I only use this load in the dead of winter for coyotes at long range.
The rest of the year I shoot a ~200 grain lead bullet over 20 some grains of 4759. The full power load shoots far and flat. The lead bullet load lets me shoot hundreds of rounds per year, and it keeps the gun out of the closet where it would just gather dust 10 months out of the year.

How about 105.0 gr of 8700 behind a 400 gr cast GC projectile in a .416 Rigby ... a nice 1900 fps that only generates 3200 lb-ft instead of the normal 5100 lb-ft of energy.

For the one gun guy I think loading up or down ha a lot going for it. I have a 7mag, when I want to shoot "lighter" loads, I shoot my .280. Same w/ the .338 mag & .338-06. I do download my handgun stuff though. I don't know why that's different for me, it's just what I do.

375 H&H
220 grain Hornady flat nose
39 grains H4227 Fed 210

Dutch

That is an excellent analogy on driving the Ferrari.

There is one thing that reduced loads do that can't be duplicated by smaller cases loaded to full pressure and that is blast.

Also from reasons which completely escape me, calibres loaded back don't seemed to be as critical for accuracy with both bedding and barrel quality.

Mike

I even download the .25-20.

What I really want is .25 Stevens ballistics for killing smal1 game without much meat damage. 65 grain cast bullets at 1400-1500 fps do that just fine.

And I cussed the factories when they brought out the 5mm and I cussed them again when they brought out the .17 HMR.

What the world really needs in rimfire is a modern version of the .25 Stevens with .257 bore to make life a little easier. Hell, I'd settle for availability of the old ammo.

I have been shooting cast bullets since I started handloading and that's downloading. I also have loads for varmint rifles in particular with reduced jacketed bullet loads. In general my formula is 50% by weight of IMR's SR 4759 of the full case load of regular powder. This produces a nice mid range load. I use a half grain of kapox to hold the powder to the primer. www.imrpowder.com/sr4759.html

Hodgdon has "youth loads" at their site using 4895 which is another good powder for this application. There are also reduced loads in many Speer manuals.

There was quite an argument in the the Big Bore section here on fillers. In general the use of small amounts of Dacron as an over powder wad or filler is not recommended.

I just asked an old timer what to do at our club who shoots in many cast bullet competitions. He uses 20 grs of 4759 in his .308 Winchester with no fillers and regular primers. His rifles are 40X's with Hart barrels and he gets good scores.

There are other good loads for a little more power in say a .375 H&H with cast bullets. I have used imr 3031 to get just over 2000 fps with very good results.

For teaching a kid to shoot, loading down and using cast bullets is the best and easiest way. You don't wind up bankrupt and he can shoot a lot. I wish my dad had taught me like that.

I shoot cast from 22-250 all the way up to 375 H&H.

A 250gr 375 cast bullet at 1800 fps knocks ten colours of snot out of an impala, but with no meat damage.

Cheers

pete

Dutch:

You are in good company with Blue Dot in the 223.
I use 12.5 grains with a 50 or 55 grain bullet for 2600 fps. It burns so efficiently it takes eternity to heat up the barrels in my 223s. 3 inches high at 100 puts me dead on at 200. Also get about 600 rounds reloaded out of 1 pound of powder. I use this load for PDogs out to 250 yds, and for past there, have a 22/250 set up or a regular loaded 223 at about 3400fps.

I am surprised no one mentioned 4198, Hodgdon or IMR. I use that a lot in almost everything. I download ammo for kids just learning how to shoot. In an '06, 30 grains will give a velocity about 2250 to 2300 with a 150 grain bullet or 165. With a 180 it gives about 2000 fps. It reduces recoil about 60%. Turns the rifle into a 30/30 that can use spitzer bullets.

Year before a nephew took an elk that weighed about 650 on the hoof outside of Yellowstone Park in Montana. the load was 30 grains of H4198, with a velocity at the muzzle of 2250fps.
Hit the Elk on a braodside shot at a full run at 175 yds, the Elk went down about 50 yds from there. The 165 grain Nosler Ballistic tip went clean thru both lungs and was bulging on the oft side under the skin.

XMR 5744 : 40 grains in a 300 and 338 winchester Mags.
180 grainers in the 300Win, give a Muzzle velocity of about 2400, and in the 338 a 200 grain bullet give me about 2250fps ( sort of making it into an old 33 Winchester lever action load).

Downloading can add a lot of versatility to any caliber, especially the big ones, If the owner does not have to go out and be MachoMan when he pulls the trigger each time and then laughs at the "Wimps" that get tired of the recoil of the mags.

It also prolongs barrel life allowing you to shoot that firearm a lot more often and get use to it. But that is unMacho isn't it???

Seafire, mine is 10 grs. 700 loads to the bottle, and I load it in surplus cases, with bulk Hornady 55 gr. bullets. After all copper wire was invented when two Dutchmen found a penny.....

For teaching kids to shoot, and for starling control, these "poppers" are hard to beat. Just don't tell my kids that they aren't shooting full bore loads! FWIW, Dutch.

I download my 30-06 for my son. 30 Gr IMR 4759, 130 Gr Hornady single shot pistol bullet, with a federal 210 primer. Small recoil, muzzle blast, and groups. Two dead deer so far. One at about 80 yards the other at about 150

4.3 grains Red Dot behind a 158 grain lead RN bullet in a 357 Magnum case. Federal Small Pistol Magnum primers*, 830 f.p.s. It makes IDPA minimum power factor (minimum = 125,000) with less recoil than a 125 grain bullet at 1000 f.p.s.

I still shoot full power loads at deer, cats, and bowling pins.

H. C.

* The velocity is indistiguishable if I use Small Pistol non-Magnum primers, but the powder doesn't burn as completely, and the residue freezes up the cylinder on me revolver. I switched back to Magnum primers and shot about 6000 rounds with no cylinder problems. A couple hundred regular primers, and the cylinder froze again. No more regular primers in these reduced loads.

.458 Win Mag, 400 Gr Speer, 63 Gr RE-7. Nice plinking load with about 30-06 recoil. Anyone try Unique and a 350 - 400 cast in the .458?

Englander,

I used to use reduced loads for my kids when they were young. Made it much easier for them to develope their gun handling. I've always used H-4895. I was able to get light loads with pretty good accuracy. This is the Hodgdon web site that has some good info on reduced loads. www.hodgdon.com/data/youth/index.php Good luck.

44 mag I have been using 7.8 grains of N320 latley. Works good.

Englander, you are absolutely correct. I have a couple of magnums along with my "standard" calibers, like the 7X57mm, .30/40 Krag, 8X60RS, and the .30/'06. I don't "load any of 'em down" for hunting purposes. I do have a couple of reduced loads I sometimes use for target practice, using mainly cast bullets for practice and plinking. But when practicing just prior to a hunt, I always use full-charge ammo of the exact same kind I'd take hunting! Loading a magnum down is bad practice for two reasons: A. It defeats the purpose of fooling with the big cases.
B. Using smaller charges in big cases usually (not always!!) results in poorer accuracy and gives large velocity variations due to non-uniform ignition!!

[ 07-02-2003, 23:31: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

I have never shot a reduced load in any of my rifles. I bought a 8mm Rem Mag, thinking it would be the end-all elk rifle and it was too brutal for me. I guess I could have watered it down quite a bit and put a muzzle brake on it and spent a lot of time around the stove bragging about my screaminbanginearsplitting boomer but I don't believe in muzzle brakes either so I just sold it and got a .338 which worked fine.
I can understand using a reduced load for rifle handling and target acquisitioning practice but most of my rifles are set up pretty much the same using model 700 actions so even when I'm shooting a lesser cartridge, "I'm practicing".

338 Mag?

Full power load , , , shot one 10 years or so ago and might again if an elk chose to attack me in a dark alley one cool, crisp Colorado day!

Lee 220 grain round nose or 200 grain Hornady FP and 39.0 grains of M-9 is a great load.

200 grain FP at 1800 fps (plus a tad) will stop small deer!

It is NOT near enough power to stop a normal size deer though.

LouisB

Gonna try that Unique load mentioned earlier,

[ 07-03-2003, 04:25: Message edited by: TCLouis ]

Ever notice the Ferrari owners live where there is constant gridlock, and the Humvee owners never take them off the paved roads?

I dont down load.I use a .338 RUM;H-4831sc;95 grs(not max. near it with hornandy 200grs Interloock;adding a muzle break feels like shooting a 30-06.I prefer a little more" power"than less.

All the time. I shoot my 416 Rem at 2200 fps with 350 grain bullets and cast 375gr down to 1800. I have been getting to know my 300 WSM with 130gr Hornady bullets (which I had laying around)and starting charges. There is no need to go firewall for practiceing offhand at 100 yards and most people might be better off shooting more reduced ammo and really learning to shoot. My brass and barrel will last longer too. If you want to really learn to shoot well its nice to not have all that blast and recoil to cover up your follow through or lack of it.

eldeguello, if you use any kind of filler(paper, cream of wheat, or the buffer for shotgun loads)and then use magnum primers you will get uniform firing every time without tipping the barrel up between rounds. I use downloads for the 30-06 loaded down for plinking and squirrels. The 375 is great loaded with 200, 220 FP's or 235 gr barnes X bullets for deer. Last year I ended up having only a Texas Heart shot on a 225 # buck with the 235 gr Barnes X. He hit the ground and bounced once. Then he was down for the count. It hit the ball of the hip ranged foreward through the vitals and ended in the front of the lungs. Good hunting up or downloaded. "D"

45/70 Handi Rifle weighs 5 or 6 pounds and kicks like a mule with 405 gr bullets and start loads for Trapdoor [40 gr IMR4895].

So for shooting holes in paper at 100m, I use 30 gr, and it kicks like my 30-06.

Interesting stuff... I've often wondered about reduced loads in rifles. I have always thought lead bullets would foul a barrel to the point that once you got it cleaned, you'd not be dumb enough to do that again! Tell me more, please. My barrel will be stainless-- what kind of load and bullets should I use in a .30-06?

rootbeer, Just get a new Lyman 48th loading manual and it will tell you quite a bit about downloading. BM

I don't download for any of my rifles.If I wanted less velocity or recoil I would get a cartridge with less case capacity.

Rootbeer. Max has it right. As long as the bullet is reasonably hard and properly sized, you shouldn't have any serious leading problems. Two loads I like in the 30-06 are 16.0 gr. Alliant #2400 and Lyman #311291 bullet, gas checked and sized to .310" The other load is 25.0 gr. IMR-4895 with the RCBS 30-180-FN gas checked bullet. With either load, I can keep 10 shots in the 10 ring offhand at fifty yards with at least 4, sometimes more, in the "X" ring, provided I do my part. And that's with a receiver sight, and my very tired eyeballs.
Shooting cast is a whole nuther ballgame and once you get started, you'll be hooked for life. I've been shooting cast since I was 16 and I'm 65 now, so I got addicted to the game early on.
If I were limited to cast bullet the rest of my days, I wouldn't mind at all. I've even hunted deer with them with excellent results. You can, for example, load a 30-30 with cast to full power for hunting. Just try and stay away from major bones and meat damage won't be any different than from jacketed. Besides, it's fun.
Paul B.

I have been using some lazer-cast FN 170g in my 30-30. Mostly IMR4320 or IMR 4895, (some RX-7). The gun is old, but hasn't had probality 1000 rounds through it. Shoots 2-4" @100 yds with jacketed bullets, but with the Gas checked 170gFN lazers, its 6-8" or more. I weigh each charge, and the first few series were with Lee dies. Got some RCBS cowboy dies, but still haven't seen a big different in the grouping. Still have about 200 more rounds to shoot to go through to convince me I'm a lousy shot, or the loads I'm working up aren't what the gun likes. The last set of loads are from the Lee manual loaded to an estimated 1900-2000 fps {still need to shoot these}. Earlier loads were some reduced loads using the formula given by the lee manual. I stopped using those, as I really didn't need to "Download" the 30-30 for recoil. I'm using Win LR std primers, with remington & winchester used brass FL R/S ie.. RCBS C/B dies. I have a 4x scope I think, (rifle was my Dads, bought in the early 60-62 era, nice looking gun But I don't know what the power of the scope is) It groups great with the cast at 50 yds, 1-1.5", so I wondering with the low power scope if its me as the shooter, or the gun, but with the jacketed, I can shot a much tighter group at 100yds, so...
Anyway, I had a couple of questions dealing using dacron filler with bottle necked (30-30 is bottle necked right) cartidges, and paper patching bullets. The 47th Lyman manual says only to use Dacron on straight walled cartidges ie.. 45-70 style I suppose, and does give instances in the manual for that cartidge. So.. as I read through some of these pages, I see folks using the dacron in other then straight-walled calibers. No problems? Is it an issue of safety? and the companies like Lyman are just being safe? Whats the real deal on using dacron in loads that don't fill up the cases completely? I think I understand that using the dacron in a load keeps the powder closer to the primer, and should, "In Theory" produce a more consistant burn, better ignition, better groups. Whats the real deal?
Question #2:
Paper patching > I had read an article in Handloading magazine by a well known gun author (his name escapes me for the moment) how he was paper patching some cast bullets on some larger calibers to aid in accuracy, like casting the bullets smaller the the bore size, then paper patching to bring them up to a size that the rifle would shoot well. My question is this something that can be done with like the 30-30? I don't have the article in front of me, so I can't quote it word for word. Is this another direction I can try in getting better accuracy out of cast loads?
I know this is long and drawn out, but I sure would like to get some feedback on these two issues from those who have some experience.

Dhunter, you are correct about fillers. i worked with them a lot when developing cast-bullet loads, years ago.