I realize that this forum is titled "Accurate Firearms", AND that shotguns are rarely spoken of in the same sentence with the word "accurate", but, it IS a reloading sub-site, and I thought there might be someone here with an opinion.

I have been reloading metalic cartridges for 'a day or two', but I have never reloaded shotgun ammo. What I don't know about it would fill volumes. A couple of recent purchases (a 16 and a 28) have gotten me 'in the mood' to roll my own shotshells. I am considering getting a MEC 650 (used) with all the paraphrenalia for the 16 gauge. Anybody have any thoughts, comments, suggestions, recommendations... I'm all ears.

TIA

Paul

You'll neve go wrong with a MEC 650...but unless you are getting it for almost free, it would be worth it to buy new.

I used a Mec 650 for years with a lot of sucess but you must keep it clean and lubricated but be careful as it is easy to get things "gummy". I would also buy one of the larger plastic bottles to use for shot as the standard size empties quickly.

There are better loaders available but they are much more expensive and designed for high volumn shooters.

Gitano,

You might have more luck on the Shotguning Board under Other Topics.

The MEC 650 is usually considered a good starting rig for reloading shotgun shells.

The problem seems to be that you don't really need to load shotgun shells unless you load a lot of them or you shoot something odd like the 28 gauge. Most folks find it easier just to go down to the discount store and buy a couple of cases when they are on sale. ($2.99 a box yesterday.)

Owning a 16 and a 28 is the perfect reason for reloading shotshells. Both are expensive (and sometimes rare) on the retailer's shelf.

Assuming you are loading for hunting or informal shooting and not for high volume target shooting, I would suggest a MEC 600 or 700 single-stage loader rather than the progressive 650. The single stage machine will be much less expensive, easier to use for relatively small lots, can be "batch" worked more like the metallics you are accustomed to loading, and is generally easier to set up and operate. A single stage MEC will produce as good a shell as can be made.

I will, like with my metallics, deprime-resize and perhaps reprime, then may set the lot of prepared shells aside for weeks or months, coming back to them when I have the time or need, then maybe filling some with dove loads and some with pheasant loads, as the situation warrants. With the single-stage there's no need to commit to producing a completed batch of shells every time you sit down to work. You can probably find a next-to-new MEC 600/700 at a gun show or on eBay for the $40 to $50 range (and 16's and 28's go cheaper than 12's and 20's).

A number of things about shotshell loading:

1. You will never go wrong with a MEC loader. They offer the best value/price relationship in my opinion. And spare parts are easily gotten for them. In fact, if you call the MEC factory, they can supply you with parts (some even free!) or tell you where to get them.

2. Shotshell loading is more of a "cookbook" exercise than is metallic cartridge loading. Get a loading manual and follow the load recommendations (hull, primer, powder, wad, shot) there exactly, and you'll get good results. Such loading manuals are offered as free booklets by almost all powder companies -- Hodgdon, IMR, Winchester, Alliant, etc.

3. One reason to load your own is to get a larger variety of loads/shot sizes than you are likely to find in any dealer's supply of factory loaded shells.

4. Although almost if not all hulls can be reloaded, some are easier to load and give better results than others. In anything other than 12 gauge, I think the Winchester AA hulls are the best. In 12 gauge, I think the New Remington STS hulls are better than the Winchester AA ones, although the AA ones are still the second best.

5. Make sure your crimping station uses the star to match the crimp in the shells you are loading -- some are 8 point and some are 6 point.

6. I use Winchester 209 primers for all shotshells, regardless of the make. There are small variations in the hotness of shotshell primers, which will affect the resulting loads -- hotter primers require less powder to get the same velocity.

7. If you are loading for 16 and 28 gauge, it would be possible to use a single powder, such as Hodgdon Universal Clays or Alliant Green Dot or IMR 800X for both, especially if you are loading target or light hunting loads. But if you want to use the optimum powder (i.e., lightest charge weight for minimum expense) you will probably find that each gauge needs a different powder.

8. Shotshell loading is much less fussy than rifle cartridge loading, meaning that the shooting results will not be influenced so much by differences in loads. Use a powder scale to check the charge that your shotshell loader is throwing, and then use a different powder bushing if the charge is off from what you want. But don't worry much about it being off by half a grain or even a bit more -- it won't matter.

9. Match your loads to their intended use. In gauges other than 12 gauge, almost all target loads are loaded to a velocity of about 1200 f.p.s. This is also an ideal velocity for hunting loads. The standard payload (shot) weight for 16 ga. loads is 1 ounce of shot, and for 28 gauge is 3/4 of an ounce. You can probably find loads for different shot weights in some loading manuals, but that's probably where you should start.

10. Lead shot is available as simple and less expensive lead shot, or as slightly more expensive high antimony shot. I understand that the high-antimony shot is harder, so it distorts less. I use the high-antimony stuff (it's sometimes called magnum shot), but I don't know whether it's really necessary.

11. Steel shot requires different treatment than lead shot. If you want to load steel shot, check with the manufacturer of your loading tool about what is required. I don't know about bismuth shot -- if you want to use it I'd recommend checking with your loading tool maker too.

12. Get the one-piece plastic wads for the gauge and the hulls and shot weight you are using. In many cases, wads are interchangeable (e.g., you can use the Winchester AA wads in Remington hulls, and conversely).

13. Unlike in metallic cartridge loading, I've found no significant difference in performance between different shotshell powders, provided you have a powder that is right for your gauge. I generally go with whatever powder I can get that is least expensive in terms of cost per load for a given gauge.

14. You will need to learn to adjust the final (the crimping) stage of your loading tool so that it provides a good, tight, and neat crimp on your loads without having the sides of the hulls buckle. With just a small amount of effort and experimentation, you should be able to get loading and crimping results that are at least as good as factory loads.

[ 11-21-2002, 07:10: Message edited by: LE270 ]

Thank you all very much. Just what I needed to hear. The price I'm looking at is $65. Sounds 'reasonable' based on what you guys have said here. (Remember I'm in AK, and EVERYTHING costs more here.)

Thanks again. I'm sure I'll be back soon with more questions.

Paul

Almost everything was covered by LE270.

Well, except I didn't see any mention of resizeing.

I shoot mostly 12ga, and rotate through several guns. If I don't resize the brass, I can get some cases which stick in the chamber sometimes.

I understand that resizeing on the 650 is a separate operation so you will need to consider this if you get additional guns for these gauges. Or just keep the cases assigned to individual guns.

ps. Did I say only the base (brass or brass plated steel) resizes?

JerryO

You guys did hit the high points. Just a couple of things to add. First, the oneI was considering was a 600 jr, NOT a 650.

Next, I'll be applying a liberal dose of the KISS princple. Here are my shotgun reloading 'conditions'.

1) I have a couple of 'esoteric' gauges, namely 16 and 28. Reloading means getting what I want in ammo, not what the local WalMart thinks I should have.

2) I'm an upland bird hunter, as oposed to a waterfowler. Therefore, I prefer 'light' loads, i.e. relatively small shot charges, at modest velocities. If I want to hunt ducks, I'll buy the 'MAGNUM' stuff at WalMart.

3) 'Cookbook' sounds fine to me. I've got my hands ful with all the metalic 'experimenting' I do.

4) I shoot a couple of hundred rounds a year. I don't think I need a progressive loader, but I would take one if someone wanted to give it to me.

Thansk again for your info and great advice.

Paul

PS
Oh yeah, I happen to LIKE #5 shot. Try to get that over-the-counter in Alaska in 16 and 28 guage.

Several additional points:

1. The height of the brass on a shotshell has nothing to do with the load inside it or the performance of the load. That is nothing but a marketing gimmick. You can load heavy (so-called "magnum") loads in low brass and very light target loads in high brass hulls.

2. The price of $65 you mention seems good to me. You could probably find a used tool at a lower price, but by the time you got it shipped to Alaska your cost would be $65 or more.

3. The MEC tool I use -- an older Versamec -- does resize the cases by forcing them up through a sizing bushing. This occurs at the first stage of the reloading process -- the stage at which decapping also occurs.

4. As I mentioned earlier, 1200 f.p.s. is the standard velocity for most shotshells. In 12 gauge, for skeet loads, I load to a lower velocity, about 1125 f.p.s., in order to save the fatigue that comes from shooting a lot of rounds that kick more than necessary. In the smaller gauges, that's not a factor, so I recommend that you load to 1200 f.p.s. The "cookbook" recipes in the loading manuals give the (supposed or anticipated) velocities for the various loads.

5. In loading shotshells you do not do what you do in metallic loading, which is start low and work up. In shotshell loading you start with the recipe in the cookbook.

6. I really like the 28 gauge. I haven't hunted with it, but I have shot skeet with it and I think that it may be the optimum skeet gauge.

7. Good luck in getting shot in the size you like. I buy mine at the local trap and skeet range, and they have #7 1/2, #8, and #9, all in 25 lb. bags. They also have wads and primers, all at good prices. I suppose you can get shot from Graf & Sons and other suppliers. Paying shipping to get it to Alaska may double the price -- usually the price of a 25 lb. bag of shot is in the range of $15 to $18.

[ 11-22-2002, 18:34: Message edited by: LE270 ]

Hey gitano, LE270 gave you a very nice list of info. It does bear repeating his statement:

2. Shotshell loading is more of a "cookbook" exercise than is metallic cartridge loading. Get a loading manual and follow the load recommendations (hull, primer, powder, wad, shot) there exactly, and you'll get good results.

Also worth mentioning that this is the only SAFE way to go. Pressure can Spike quickly and erratically with these relatively Fast Powders.

As you look through the Load Manuals, you will also see loads listed which use a few more grains of slightly slower powders which provide the same velocity as the faster powders, but do so at a lower Pressure. These often "enhance" the density of the shot-string over a longer distance and provide a slower recoil pulse. Both can be advantages to the shooter depending on what he is trying to achieve.

The actual hardness of the "Lead Shot" can have a significant effect on the shot density. Spreader loads are easier to achieve with the softest shot(generally the cheapest) and Fast Powders.This is because each individual shot pellet deforms more during the firing cycle, altering their center-of-mass and that causes the groups to open quicker.

Likewise, the more expensive (higher Antimony) Shot(and slower powders) will deform less and thus result in denser shot patterns.

The "chokes" can really fake you out. The Group Density provided by a Modified Choke in one shotgun can be TOTALLY different in another gun with a Modified Choke. Lots of interesting things going on in the choke area as the shot makes the transition.

As time consuming as it is, "Patterning" your loads will be worth it in the l-o-n-g run. I'm not a big fan of "Paper Patterning" shotgun loads since counting the shot per quarter section will drive you to drink. Best to find a 30" steel disk, spray it with white paint, move it out to 40yds, put on glasses and fire a shot. Then walk out, "guesstimate" the pattern, repaint and refire. Much quicker and it works just as well for me. Five patterned shots with one load will tell you all you want to know. But be sure to make some kind of a written note about the patterning of each load.

Sounds good to me.

Thanks,
Paul

Paul,

You've received EXCELLENT advice already, nothing I can disagree with at all.

The only thing I can add is this, I have had wonderful luck with Hodgdon "Clays" powder. Very clean burning, and it does everything I want it to. If you can get it up in the Alaskan country, I recommend it.

Of course, I'm a little bit of a "homer" as Hodgdon's offices are just down the street from me.

Tim

You're just jealous because the voices don't talk to you!

Gitano: You've gotten some super advice and pointers here. This is one of the few threads on AR that somebody hasn't jumped in with something really screwy (which may be distracting, but helps with the entertainment value)!

Sixty-five bucks is a fair price for a MEC 600 in good shape. You didn't say whether this was set up for 16 gauge or 28 gauge. Whichever, you'll need to order the change-over set of dies for the other gauge, which will probably run you about $30 or so. Changing dies takes about 5 to 10 minutes, once you're used to the process, then a little fiddling to get the crimp and end taper right.

I use Unique exclusively in my 28 gauge (13 grains with 3/4 oz shot in an AA hull with AA28 wads). It's been years since I loaded 16 gauge, but when I did, Unique was my favorite there. It's a common and versatile powder, so you might want to settle on it for both gauges (and if you already load for pistol, you probably have some already).

Have fun and good luck!

I loaded some 35,000 shells on MEC 600s in 1970-1973. I still have and am still using both tools. They last. Those were 12 and 20 ga. for skeet, mostly. Most of the high points have been covered but I would like to emphasize one thing.

Follow a load manual. You are very unlikely to better performance. Also, that means get the components they specify. A change in wad, primer, etc. can have extreme consequences.

Interestingly, we don't have the quail we used to have. I've not got permission to hunt anywhere dove are plentiful enough to hunt. So... even though I have the 2 most eligible candidates for reloading (16 and 28 ga.) I buy my shells. I find I don't shoot enough to warrant upgrading the tools to handle those gauges.