I have seen reference made to annealed case heads being REAL bad. I have abosolutely NO intention of doing this, but am curious as to what the BAD situation really is.

I do not mean to sound like a "troll", but it seems pretty obvious to me that the brass is not strong enought to handle the chamber pressure since it is bigger after firing. So what does it matter if one case is harder or softer than another?

I have also read that annealed brass is more ductile than unannealed brass. Isn't ductility a good thing?

Please help me understand this one.

Casey

Casey If the case head is annealed (made dead soft) and you load the case and fire it the pressure will expand the case head and primer pocket rendering the case useless,not to mention the gases that will be released back into the action and your face.Get the idea?

Hello Casey - let me see, how do these reasons grab you:

- the rear 5 - 6mm of the case is unsupported.
In the annealed condition it is possible to "balloon" this unsupported area. In an extreme case it may even burst and become brazed to the chamber.

- the gas pressure could expand the brass away from the primer and release hot gas towards your face

- the extractor rim, being soft, could be torn away from the case. No much of a problem on the range - but during a hunt when desperately needing a follow-up shot?

cheers edi

Thanks for the responses. I have a couple of questions though.

1.) Looking at one of my rifles it appears that the unsupported portion of the case is a solid disk of brass. Is this disk being flattened out by the pressure since it is annealed?

2.) The primer is perpendicular to the pressure wall of the case so it seems to be that the pressure will compress the case against the primer therefore sealing it. So does it matter is the brass is hard or soft since the primer will be compressed into the brass either way?

Casey

The case is annealed at the neck! If you notice military brass it is discolored at the neck that is where it is annealed as with the best brass Lapua Brass. If you annealed the base of the case after firing one heavy charge it most likly wouldn't hold a primer again. Good Luck

Hi Casey - life at the primer end:

- the combustion pressure passes through the flash hole and into the inside of the primer and tries to expand the primer.

- if the base of the case is annealed, the walls of the primer pocket get pushed sideways - and you end up with a loose primer situation.

- if you have generous headspace, the pressure inside the primer holds the primer against the boltface while the brass recovers from being stretched backwards.

Hope that this helps - edi

Reload, your post makes sense to me. I don't think the other guys have a clue.

For instance I have seen cartridges, which had been reloaded so many times you could push a primer in by hand, fired off with little if any blow by the primer. The pressure seals that pocket not the press fit between the primer and the case! It does make sense though, at least to me, that a soft case may yield a bit around the pocket.

I am not sure though if even that would happen. After doin' a little searching this morning on the WWW I discovered that there is a fairly small yield strength difference between nonannealed and annealed brass. The BIG difference is ductility. The annealed brass is about three times more ductile than the nonannealed brass!

Thanks,
Casey

Hell Casey - I wouldn't go and attempt to walk on water for a couple of days.... :-)

Cartridge brass yield strength:

hard - 60 000 psi.
annealed - 16 000 psi.

Better check your reference again.

OK - I plead guilty to not answering the exact questions that you asked.

Yes - the solid disc at the base of the case will get squashed and flow if it is fully annealed and you are firing one of the high pressure cartridges. (If I reload my 8x68 to the factory loading, after two shots the case has lengthened over 0.020" and has to be trimmed to chamber again. So to extend the life of my cases I have downloaded quite a bit for range shooting.)

You are correct - the primer does expand in it's pocket and seals to hold the gas pressure. However it will also expand that pocket. As the pressure drops the primer will recover while the annealed, expanded, ductile case pocket won't - and there is your hot gas leakage path.

I form .300 Sherwood cases from 0.222 brass.(Check COTW for the dimensions of those two cases) I have to fully anneal the 0.222 case so that I can draw it down over a mandrel to control wall thickness. Because the base of the case is soft and the extraction by a Martini-Henry is a bit fierce, the rim of the case deforms during ejection. I'm still trying to figure a way around that problem.

cheers edi

edi, isn't the pressure acting upon the brass transfered through the primer cup? If that is indeed the case, isn't the "gas seal" maintained since the primer cup is securely pressed up against the brass? Again, I think Reload's comments may well be true, but I just cannot understand how your's could be correct. If I am missing something please take the time to explain it to me.

Thanks,
Casey

[ 11-04-2002, 01:41: Message edited by: CASEY ]

CASEY, the primer cup is springy, as is the hard brass. When fired the primer expands, so does the pocket. In a nominal situation, both expand then contract. Annealed(meaning dead soft) brass is not springy. In the case of an annealed case head, they expand together, the primer then contracts, the brass stays streatched out. Additionally the annealed brass is very much weaker, as edi malinaric very clearly pointed out.

However, fell free to anneale all of your brass, load it up and find out for your self. I sugest you dont, tho some only seem to learn the hard way.

Kristofer

[ 11-04-2002, 02:54: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

I once got a batch of 7.62 NATO brass that was so soft that a normal .308 load extruded a tit of brass that shot the extractor of the 110 Savage I was shooting out into LostForever.

Later read in Amercan Rifleman that the military was intentionally annealing some cases before selling them for scrap to make them unreloadable.

This is far different from normal neck annealing. I have done a fair amount of case forming that involved big changes in neck size; i.e., .308 to .250 Savage. The neck gets work hardened and you anneal by holding the neck into a very low flame of a propane torch. Do this in a darkened room and you can see the brass change colors. Revolve in your bare fingers until the color change moves up the shoulder. Drop into a bucket of water.

I have never had any problem with this method because the case gets too hot to hold long before the case head is affected.

Have any of you guys shot completely annealed brass?

I have! Guess what nothing bad happened. The brass was not useable after one shot though! The primer pocket was a tad loose after being fired.

Is the game of 20 questions over now?

Sniperonthegrassyknoll

I have seen rifles fired quite a few times with case heads annealed.

In Australia, I think annealing is more common than in America because a higher proportion of Australianm shooters reload and in general components are harder to get and also more expensive than in the US. Thus lots of shooters necking down and up and annealing. In fact 20 or 30 years ago, articles on annealing were common in our gun magazines.

The results of course depend on the loads being used and it ranges from loose primer pocket to a primer pocket and case head that looks like a very big overload was used. You can always pick it was an annealed case head that was the problem because the primer looks quite normal.

It use to be quite common out here with 303/25 and 303/270 in SMLEs. When case heads are annealed for these then a loose primer pocket is the result because the recommended loads for 303/25 and 303/270 were quite low.

If you want try something, heat some 270s up to read hot on the case head and then shoot a normal maximum load with 130 grainers, say 56 grains of IMR 4350 etc. I would suggest you wear goggles

Mike

DO like Mike suggested, and try not to develop a flinch.

Kristfer

[ 11-04-2002, 07:31: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

Hotcore,
You sound like the pot calling the kettle black. When I asked you to explain yourself about a statement you made in regards to annealing the last time it came up you ignored me. What happened there, cat get your tongue?

I did not mean to offend anyone. I just do not understand how the brass, which is much more stiff than the primer cup, wouldn't spring back quicker than the primer.

Seriously, take a pair of pliers and crush a spent primer. Pretty easy, right? Now try and crush that solid disk of brass at the head of an empty case! Ain't gonna happen!

Besides that simple fact, the gases are actually primarily sealed by the open end of the primer cup being crushed into the bottom of the primer pocket of the case!

Reloader may well be right! The other guys are just receiting what they read in a magazine or loading manual.

I was once told that the only reason necks are annealed on factory ammo is to insure that the necks don't split on the shelf. I was told this by a Winchester Ammo factory rep! He told me annealing was done for ductility alone. He further told me that NO brass is strong enough to handle the chamber pressures of modern high powered rifles. He said that the rifles chamber must be stiff enough to insure that the case isn't over stretched. He said if the chamber stretches too much the case will rupture. He said that an annealed case would be able to handle more chamber stretching than a nonannealed case. Now I have always wondered how much of that was a sales pitch and how much wasn't. The truth be known if I hadn't been there when someone had asked the question I would never had heard the answer. Based upon the discussion on this thread I think the Winchester Ammo guy was probably MORE RIGHT than wrong.

Sorry if I made anyone mad. I just thought I would check out the Winchester reps statements since the troll wars reminded me of them.

Casey

AMMO SPLITTING ON THE SHELF?

That's a classic!

Of course brass doesn't have the strength to contain a modern cartridge firing. It does have just the right properties to SEAL the breach and then to "spring back" from the maximum dimension.

Take away the "spring back" by annealing is part of the problem. The other part is the lack of ability to maintain a seal. FWIW, Dutch.

Happens, Dutch.

<< AMMO SPLITTING ON THE SHELF?

That's a classic! >>

I have seen old military stuff with 10-20% neck splits. Bet others have, too.

The case neck needs to be fairly soft and the base needs to be fairly hard.

"The case is annealed at the neck! If you notice military brass it is discolored at the neck that is where it is annealed as with the best brass Lapua Brass. If you annealed the base of the case after firing one heavy charge it most likly wouldn't hold a primer again. Good Luck"

CASEY, what leads you to believe reloader has an any more credible responce then any one else here? Additionally, how do you know he did not get this info out of a book? You seem to have come here with an idea of what you wanted to be true, and found some one you agreed with to tout as your 'expert'. Then berate many people who give you basically the same info, but say worse things can also happen.

I bet you have never fired cases with anneled heads, and that you will not. Why? Becasue it is a danger and a risk without a gain or benefit to the reloader. You would risk hurting your self and rifel for no damn reason. With the exception of the gent' who hade to make odd brass for his cartridge. You come here and ask a beginer question and the argue and insult the people who would dare presume educate you.

CASEY, you are IMO a jackass. ecos's "screw you" smilely here:

Reloader, no ofence ment to you sir, your post was quite good. I can not see where is has such shining truth above the other replys to this thread.

Kristofer

[ 11-05-2002, 12:06: Message edited by: KBGuns ]

A BIG tip of the hat to Kristofer & Hot Core. I have but one question - What took you guys so long ?

Kudo's (I guess?) to the patience and restraint exhibited on this posting after a couple of Casey's replies. I'm no expert on reloading, but jeez Louise, I do know enough to respect the people and advice given on these forums and not trash the people that voluntarily contribute responses to my questions.

Additionally, Hot Core makes an excellent point. There are a lot of FNG's out there (I was one too) looking for answers and information that can't yet discern the valuable data from the BS. It's a damn good thing somebody rose to the occasion to point it out so there isn't a potential catastrophic event as a result of improper information.

Casey - I see by your profile that you are a teacher. I certainly hope you are far more professional and properly informed when in front of a classroom of students.

Thought for the day: Ignorance can be fixed, but STUPID is forever.

This makes one wonder why the hell people ask questions in the first place if they THINK they already know every damn thing. DUH.

Could it be because they are just trolls looking for an argument. Anyone see a pattern developing here ala Todd E., Axel, etc.?

Check out all their posts. It's like a broken record...always starting out with such "sincere little questions" and acting so respectful...and then spinning around and claiming they know everything and everyone who stopped to try to help them is a idiot.

I said I wasn't going to hunt these two fool trolls again, but it sure as hell hard not to keep tripping over their stupid posts. They are SO HARD TO SPOT.

Dino - I note Casey's profile says he's big into "Role Playing." That's sure as hell what he's doing here. He doesn't KNOW shit.

Gentlefolk - surely if Casey is still confused the fault is more with ourselves for not being able to answer his question in a clear and understandable way.

Getting impatient with him doesn't help him or all those others who are reading this forum and would also like to have a better understanding of how things work.

He at least had the courage to ask and persist in saying "I'm still uncertain of how it works" - surely we can have the patience to discuss this without getting all up-tight about it?

cheers edi

Ammo splitting on the shelf !! Yes in a previous post I mentioned this was a problem that the british army had in india over 100 years ago. It is called stress corrosion cracking, not uncommon in brass and the cure is to anneal the neck.And yes I am a metallurgist and yes I know what I am talking and doubters can put up your money.

I know I promised not to post anymore, but the troll hunters aren't completely quiet yet either.

Anyway, I have an excerpt from an ASM handbook dealing with annealing of brass. If I am successful with the scanner I would email this to anyone who would like to post it here for all to see.

That is all I am saying.

TEG