Hello
I'm tryin out some .30 cal 168gr CT Balistic Silvertips in my Ruger SS M77 chambered in 30/06. Before I continue, let me say this rifle shoots a number of different loads VERY well.

I'm using R-P Nickel brass with CCI 200 primers, seated .020" off the lands.
Three shot groups at 200 yards.

Loads were;
56.9grs IMR4350
57.0grs H-4350
51.3grs IMR4064
51.8grs Rx 15

All four loads produced the same [shape] group..
The FIRST round went high, and the next two rounds grouped much lower very close together, producing a group of 3-8 inches each.

I have been doing this a long time, but like I said, this is the first time working with this bullet type, and I've never seen groups like this.
I was going to try some different primers, charges and vary the seating depth some.

So those of you that use this type of bullets, what are your thoughts?

The only reason I'm using these bullets along with the nickel cases is when I hunt in the rain, which in Southern Oregon is case most of the time, I won't have a corroded mess on my rounds.

Hey Rdub,

I would abandon this bullet and try another. I don't think your gun likes it or it would shoot a lot better.

Try a couple of different brands.....Sierras and some Hornadys. It will become evident quickly when the groups tighten with the same powders you are using with the CT's .......

Nosler is the same as the CTs so don't try the same 168 gr Nosler BT's.

You really should see groups around the 2-3" size at 200 before you pick a bullet

The problem w/ moly bullets is you have to shoot only moly bullets. The clean bore needs to be "conditioned" for best accuracy. They shoot pretty well once you get a layer of moly down in a clean bore. If you are shooting over jacketed, you'll never get them to shoot well. Clean the bore down to bare metal & start shooting the moly. After 10-12rds, gropus should start to tighten up.
I abandoned them after learning this. I just tumbled the bullets until the bulk fo the moly came off & shot the rest that way.

I like Nosler bullets! I have never used any of the CTs. I have used Partitons and Ballistic tips and Accubonds. I really like Accubonds!

I have tried the CT's with poor accuracy results, in 25 caliber rifles, several of them.
But, The Partitions, and Ballistic Tip bullets are very accurate, not only in 25 calibers, but all of them I load for; 22, 244, 25, 7mm and 30 caliber. I have never had a Partition bullet in any caliber that would not shoot, mostly 3 shots into 1/2 MOA. Those bullets are amazing, and great killers too.

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I abandoned them after learning this. I just tumbled the bullets until the bulk fo the moly came off & shot the rest that way.

I use CT bullets in my 375H&H. They shot much better after I removed the majority of the Moly.

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Originally posted by fredj338:
The problem w/ moly bullets is you have to shoot only moly bullets. The clean bore needs to be "conditioned" for best accuracy. They shoot pretty well once you get a layer of moly down in a clean bore. If you are shooting over jacketed, you'll never get them to shoot well. Clean the bore down to bare metal & start shooting the moly. After 10-12rds, gropus should start to tighten up.
I abandoned them after learning this. I just tumbled the bullets until the bulk fo the moly came off & shot the rest that way.

I have not had this problem with GS Custom bullets in 404 and 9.3. all moly coated and shoot great with clean oiled barrel.

Ok, thanks. This 'conditioning' sounds like a pain.
I'll stick with what I know the rifle shoots well..Sierra and Noslers..

Rdub, I would be interested to know what your cleaning procedure was between these groups, if any. I've not seen that type of performance influenced by the bullet before--if each 3 shot group did that without cleaning between, if your rig was cleaned between groups, it does sound like your barrel wants a few rounds down the tube with the LUBALOX (not moly) coated bullets. I have had the experience where the groups tightened up significantly after having several of the CT bullets down the tube. I really like these bullets and use them a lot, I don't clean my barrels (with any bullet) until accuracy degrades, except to push a patch or two down the barrel to get out the loose powder residue, I usually shoot a little Prolix or Ballistisol on the patch, but sometimes I just pull a boresnake through there if I'm out on the road, or lazy.....

If you like the bullet, I'd work with it a little bit, heck that's the beauty of handloading to me---on the other hand, they're just a ballistic tip with the lubalox coating on them, so if you like the plain BT's better, than you will get the bullet you want going that way of course....

IMO,your poor groups have nothing to do with your choice of bullets.If you are set on useing nickel cases,then I suggest you try Winchester cases.Your group pattern tells me the issue is coming from your choice of brass.I would also give the bore a good cleaning.

RDub,

Sorry to hear about & see your results with CT bullets. My experience with this bullet in the same chambering with very similar components has been exactly the opposite - they shoot, well; fantastically.

In my Blaser R93 .30/06 Sprg. w/Attaché barrel the CT 168 gr. Ballistic Silvertips with R-P nickeled cases, sparked by a Federal 210 primer at .3.31" O.A.L. and charged w/60.0 grs. of H-4831SC has been the most accurate load I ever fired in this rifle at 100 meters; litteraly 3-shots in one slightly enlarged .308" hole and that NOT one sinlge isolated group but everytime I squint & hold my tongue right.

The groups shot with the CT's I've used were also shot without a squeaky clean barrel, scrubbing or other extra-special attention-to-detail in barrel conditioning, too.

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IMO,your poor groups have nothing to do with your choice of bullets.

I agree 100% with shootaway's opinion regarding inaccuracy assessment regarding your bullet choice.

However, if you'll analyze all 4 of the groups shown in your photo you'll note a single flyer in every group with the remaining shots attempting to group quite well at 200 yards.

Please don't misinterprete my favorable results with the same bullets & catridge to mean everyone should obtain similar results; quite the opposite; we all know that every barrel is a law unto itself. However, I suggest another test with the same bullets & loads.

IMO the groups you've depicted show either:

1. Varying shooting conditons during the shooting session,

2. Inconsitant bench technique, or

3. a bedding, optical or mount/ring inconsistancy.

Again, this is my opinion, but based on your target & groups. I'd suggest these bullets & loads beg to shoot well. In every group one single shot ruined what would otherwise be excellent results from a .30/06 Sprg. at 200 yards, with ANY bullet.

As a matter-of-fact, I'll even go WAY-Y-Y out on a limb with the saw behind me in this instance.

Take a look through your scope in direct sunlight and concentrate on the recticle. Does there appear to be "hair/whiskers" growing off the sides of it? If so, your recticle may be just about ready to pop.

I relate this since I had an issue with similar inconsistant groups (from a <1" grouping rifle & load) that all of a sudden started giving me results similar to your photo. On about the 3rd or 4th attempt at a now +/- 6" group and my consternation; the next time I looked into the scope the crosshair was laying on it's side at the bottom of scope.

Just my $.0.02

No luck with CT bullets for me either. IIRC .280 Rem and .300 H&H trials were off-putting. Could be I tried 'em in .270 Wby too -- waste of money and powder.

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I would be interested to know what your cleaning procedure was between these groups, if any.

Yes, I agree this may be the key. Since each flyer appears to be the first shot, if you are cleaning between groups (which is a whole nother topic), then the first shot can likely be accounted for as the first moly shot in a clean barrel.

LWD

quote:

Originally posted by RDub:
Loads were;
56.9grs IMR4350
57.0grs H-4350
51.3grs IMR4064
51.8grs Rx 15

All four loads produced the same [shape] group..
The FIRST round went high, and the next two rounds grouped much lower very close together, producing a group of 3-8 inches each. ...

Hey RDub, Since you mentioned, "this rifle shoots a number of different loads VERY well", I'd suggest your "random selection" of Powder amounts is the real problem. Those specific amounts might do fine with other Bullets, but there is no guarantee they will even hit the paper with the new Bullets. It appears to me your groups(actually patterns) are simply not on any Harmonic Node.

You have about 10 chances out of 360 that a Randomly Selected Load will be close enough to a Harmonic to create a Group instead of a Pattern. And it looks as if you are somewhere out in the 350 degree portion of the Harmonic Swing. You might keep Randomly picking Loads and eventually hit a good Harmonic, or you could actually "Develop the Load" from below using the never improved upon Creighton Audette Load Development Method. Mr. Audette's Method will save you time and components in the long run. Plus it will let you know if a specific rifle has any chance at all of shooting a specific Bullet well with a specific Case/Primer/varying Powder amount combination.

Best of luck to you.

If you've been getting good groups with these loads and cases and all of a sudden are getting poor groups,that could mean throat erosion.How many rounds have you put down the barrel? The bore must be in really good condition to shoot tight groups at 200yds.If you've been shooting full power loads with it,a couple of hundred rounds or less is all that is needed for it to stop shooting at 200.

I think you guys need to re-read his post/question. It's about the CT bullets he's trying for the first time.

He says his gun shoots other loads VERY well. You all know that you can't pick the bullet you want to shoot, the barrel does. I think, like I posted earlier, that his gun just doesn't like this bullet and he should try another.

After looking again, like HC says, it looks like he may just be randomly picking a charge weight and not working up the load for accuracy.

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Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I think you guys need to re-read his post/question. It's about the CT bullets he's trying for the first time.

He says his gun shoots other loads VERY well. You all know that you can't pick the bullet you want to shoot, the barrel does. I think, like I posted earlier, that his gun just doesn't like this bullet and he should try another.

After looking again, like HC says, it looks like he may just be randomly picking a charge weight and not working up the load for accuracy.

These are match-like target hunting bullets and I assume the loads he has chosen are classic 30-06 loads for that bullet weight.There should be no reason they would not group tight.Assuming the rifle is in order,I think the issue is caused by the cases,and/or bore erosion and/or copper fouling.I think the barrel picks the bullet weight to match with its rate of twist,but does not have much say if the bullet does match.

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Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:
I think you guys need to re-read his post/question. It's about the CT bullets he's trying for the first time.

He says his gun shoots other loads VERY well. You all know that you can't pick the bullet you want to shoot, the barrel does. I think, like I posted earlier, that his gun just doesn't like this bullet and he should try another.

After looking again, like HC says, it looks like he may just be randomly picking a charge weight and not working up the load for accuracy.

These are match-like target hunting bullets and I assume the loads he has chosen are classic 30-06 loads for that bullet weight.There should be no reason they would not group tight.Assuming the rifle is in order,I think the issue is caused by the cases,and/or bore erosion and/or copper fouling.I think the barrel picks the bullet weight to match with its rate of twist,but does not have much say if the bullet does match.

I could never get the 160gr/7nn CT to shoot in either my very accurate 280 or 7mm Dakota. Take the moly off & they shoot well like any jacketed bullet. If you clean between groups, then you undo the conditioning layed down by the first 3-5 shots. Even CT figured this out & made bullets w/o the coating.

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Originally posted by shootaway:
These are match-like target hunting bullets and I assume the loads he has chosen are classic 30-06 loads for that bullet weight. There should be no reason they would not group tight. ...

There is no such thing as a Universal Load which works well with all Bullets of the same weight in any rifle. Where are all these Twilight Zone reloading concepts coming from - bobby tomek? bart b?? teanScum??? tc1????

Has rookiegreen reposted his plagerized and hosed-up ocw farce?

Hang in there shootaway. You will eventually get one right.

Seems like some people lack real life-true shooting experience.It's not true that coated bullets don't group well or that there is no such thing as a classic load.I can think of many classic loads-a Rel 22,7mm Remington, classic, 140gr bullet load that shoots well with any brand bullet or a classic, Varget, 155gr and 168gr 308 load or a classic,retumbo 300RUM load,or a classic 458 lott load,or a classic....BTW,CT ballistic silvertip bullets are not moly coated-the suff is called lubalox

Lubalox, moly, that blue stuff on Barnes X's, whatever. Some barrels work, but it ain't the shooter/cleaner/nut behind the trigger. Karma? Okay. Gremlins? Even better. Whatever the reason, it can be just mystery. 300-grain Sierras are supposed to be grand but my .375 Wby shoots 'em like birdshot. Next!

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Originally posted by shootaway:
Seems like some people lack real life-true shooting experience.It's not true that coated bullets don't group well or that there is no such thing as a classic load.I can think of many classic loads-a Rel 22,7mm Remington, classic, 140gr bullet load that shoots well with any brand bullet or a classic, Varget, 155gr and 168gr 308 load or a classic,retumbo 300RUM load,or a classic 458 lott load,or a classic....BTW,CT ballistic silvertip bullets are not moly coated-the suff is called lubalox

I can only tell you what I KNOW. Take the whatevercrap that is on the CT off, & they shoot great in both my 7mm. With the coating on them, they shoot poorly unless I have a clean bore & several rounds down the bbl. They still shoot better w/ the lube removed, which is why I believe CT makes them that way too.

Hey, just got back from huntin and discovered quite a discussion here..

Ok, I'll attempt to answer some of your questions.

Yes, I shot these loads over some jacket fouling.

Fish wanted to know if I cleaned the bore between each group. Very good question as this would be what I would expect to see if someone were to clean between groups.
No.. I didn't clean the bore during this shooting session.

Gerry mentioned some possibilities..
The scope is fine. It's a year old Leopold 2.5x8 Vari-III. The rings and mount is ok.
If there was a problem here, I would see weird groups across the board.
Shooting conditions were consistent. Nice 70°F day with no wind. I have quality bench rest and bags. I know how to breathe and hold. I don't start shooting until my pulse is stable.
Bedding..? Maybe. The rifle is also a year old and it has not been gone through at all. I'm shooting it right out of the box. So far, I'm pleased with its performance except for the current discussion.

Hot Core is absolutely correct with regard to just throwing some loads at it. That is what I did in this case.
I have been working up loads for a long time and completely agree with and utilize Mr. Audette's methods. All of my favorite loads have been discovered this way.
The loads I tried do very well with Sierra and Nosler 165gr bullets. So, 'sometimes' I will try a 'feeler' load just changing the bullet. Sometimes I get lucky. If not, I go back to the bench and do it right.
BTW I don't call a load a favorite unless it shoots 2" - 2½" or better at 200yds.

So again, I just thought the consistent shape of all the groups were highly unusual given four different powders were used. It is almost like I shot each group with a squeaky clean barrel for each group where each group required one fouling shot to settle in. I was just wondering if anyone else had similar experience with this bullet. I was shocked to see such horribe groups from componants that have been used in the past with excellent results, except the bullet.

So maybe when I get some more time to spend at the range, I'll go about testing this bullet properly.

Thanks for all the replies.

RDub does not say if he cleaned barrel between groups. Of the 1st three groups his 1st shot is high; low on the fourth grp. I hesitate to call them flyers because of the consistency of being so off from the subsequent two shots.

I usually experience the same thing if I do not fire fouling shots after cleaning. I now always fire foul shots after cleaning. It is also noted that shots # 2&3 are tight. So, if he is cleaning barrel between groups and not firing a foul shot or two I would try cleaning and firing foul shots, or shoot all four groups without cleaning. See what happens.

RDub- With your last post you answered my concern. (Our posts crossed.) Does not look like cleaning and foul shots are the problem. I still find it very curious that, for all four groups, shots 2 & 3 are tight.

I bought a box of the CT bullets when I couldn't find any Nosler BT's. They were same wt. and I used them as a fill in till I could get some more Nosler Bt's. FWIW, my rifle didn't like the CT's quite as much, all other things being equal (primer, powder, etc.). The point of impact was the same, and the groups weren't terrible, just about 1/2 moa larger than the same load with nosler BT's.
I shot a couple of does with them, and they were still dead with a fair amount of meat damage, which is why I am now getting away from the more fragile bullets.
The CT's are wicked cool looking though.