i"m fairly new to reloading(about 6 mths), and i started with sierra .243 100 gr sp. i seated them as long as the magazine would allow, which is still about 30 thou off the lands(it"s an old gun!) the gun shoots a lot worse with factory, or with a shorter col.
i accidently picked up some sierra game kings, which are a boat tail bullet last shopping trip. i thought that boat tails are supposed to be more accurate, so i tried loading them up. this is where the problem lies,
as i can"t seat them as deep because of the boat tail base. my groups are almost twice the size, and higher than the same load with a square base bullet.
what is the least length of bullet anyone would leave in the case for the case to grip?
i size the neck pretty tight to start with.
i"ve heard that you should"nt have less than a calibre length(243 in my case) in the case, but that would have to increase with a boat tail, as the tail won"t actually touch the case neck.
i"ve got some 308 btsp"s, and they"re going to be the same. i went from 130 gr (square base) to 150 gr, so i could seat them further out, but there"s not much difference because of the tail.
is there any advantage to boat tails, or should i stick to square base and max col?

There is no advantage to boat-tailed bullets at the ranges at which most people will be shooting. They are not, in general, more accurate than flat-base bullets, and they do not perform better than flat-base bullets in terms of terminal ballistics. IF you are seating to a long OAL, go with the flat base bullets

Bigbrass said it all. Yes, rule of thumb is 1 caliber into the case neck.

But if you believe that getting the bullet closer into the leade will give better accuracy there are things to try:

1. choose a heavier bullet. It will naturally be longer than a lighter bullet and get closer to the lands.
2. choose a bullet profile more rounded than pointed.
3. choose a Barnes solid copper bullet which will be longer than a cup and core bullet of the same weight.
4. set barrel back one thread and rechamber.

If your .243 is in any good shape at all it should shoot the 100 grain spire point bullets just fine. I don't find much differance (except price) in the flat base and the boat tail bullets at 100 yards. the 100 grain Game king from Sierra should shoot as well as their 107 grain match boat tail for the .243 at 100 yards. Try seating the bullets to the depth of a factory 100 grain bullet. This gives you a starting point.

Actually a flat base bullet is more accurate than a boat tail because there is more wt. toward the rear of the bullet (so says Sierra).

In a hunting application, I don't think you'd notice a big difference between a boat tail and flat base out to 300 yards.

I think BT's are a bit easier to seat in the case mouth. They also fly a bit flatter beyond 275-325 yards and have a better BC.

i've got rifles that don't like boat tails they
shoot flat base better also cheek your bullet
box because sierra has some 243 bullets that are
only recommended for barrels of a certain twist

quote:

Originally posted by BigBrass:
There is no advantage to boat-tailed bullets at the ranges at which most people will be shooting. They are not, in general, more accurate than flat-base bullets, and they do not perform better than flat-base bullets in terms of terminal ballistics. IF you are seating to a long OAL, go with the flat base bullets

And may I add that the boattail is far more likely to shed it's jackety than a flat base bullet and result in loss of penetration.

Boattails are fine for very long range varminting and targeting and when using bonded hunting bullets.
Since you've only been at this fool's hobby six months I can only assume it's time someone tapped you on the shoulder and whispered.......Nosler and Hornady.....more to follow.

i"ve already seen what happens when a soft point bullet "peels" back far enough to reach the boat tail, and whats left of it turns inside out. i think i"ll stick to square bases from now on.
and yes, i"m already using hornady bullets, both sst"s and soft points. their 130 gr soft points in 308 are excellent for a flat shooting medium sized deer load.
(i"m in the UK, so most of our deer are smaller than whitetails)
i"ll mostly be shooting fallow this year, and handloading has greatly increased the (accurate)range of my 243, using flat based 100 gr sp"s, so the 308 will only be for red deer and longer range shooting.(although it would still be nice to shoot tiny groups at long range just for the sake of it!)
i"ll try a 150 gr square base next to push the col out a little.

Actually flat base tend to shoot more accurately becaudr it's much easier to make them more precisely. It's much more difficult to get a perfect boattail, and while some like Swift get it done, the cost is reflective of their effort. In any case, other than being easier to seat, I have'nt noticed much benefit from udinh BT's in hunting ammo.

this is all very good, but why do most of the gun shops seem to stock so many boat tail bullets? i saw some bullets today that were the right weight, and the right point, but with boat tails? seems that boat tails are undeservedly popular.

quote:

but why do most of the gun shops seem to stock so many boat tail bullets?

Perhaps they don't have a choice and have to take BT's as part of the mix.

Because the smart handloaders already bought up all the flat base bullets?

Because they look sexy?

The same reason we all wear "designer-flauge". Marketing. gun shops sell whats popular wether you need it or not. As was already stated, flat base bullets are more accurate, cheaper and do the job better, in general, (unless, of course, you are shooting rifle matches and wind is an issue at longer ranges).

quote:

Originally posted by mousegun:
flat base bullets are more accurate, cheaper and do the job better, (unless, of course, you are shooting rifle matches and wind is an issue at longer ranges).

And for all who believe any such generalization can be true, I'd like to tell you about this bridge I have for sale....

All you have to do is check a ballistics chart to see here is little diff. out to 300yds in drop or deflection. I prefer flat base for hunting bullets because I have seen cores slipped on recovered bullets & it doesn't inspire confidence.

quote:

.... seems that boat tails are undeservedly popular.

Ummm, not so fast there. Boat tails are deserving in their popularity based on shooting style, and application.

I've only been handloading since 1990 (or there abouts), and I've loaded predominantly boat tail bullets or semi boat tails. Mostly because of ease of loading but psychologically because I thought they were "better."

Regardless, most every animal I've killed was with a Nosler ballistic tip and I've never had one fail. I've killed animals with Speer bt's, Sierra bt's, Hornady bt's, sciroccos, TSX boat tails, etc. I've never had a penetration problem or a jacket problem.

Lucky? Maybe, but the odds are in favor of good products because I've put a rather hefty dent in the whitetail population throughout the west, south, and midwest.

The first bullet I ever had NOT penetrate fully was a 150 Speer flatbase over a max load of IMR4831 in my .270. I shot a buck in MO at 130 yards. He dropped on the spot and the bullet was recovered as a perfect mushroom. But it did not exit.

I have a friend that killed a 250 lb blackbear in Ontario last August or Sept. Shot it with a 220 grain Rem. Core Lokt from his .06 at 8 yards. Bullet did not pass through but bear went 3 yards, rolled and died. I, on the other hand, stuffed a 180 Swift Scirocco (a boat tail) over a max load of RE22 in my .06, shot a black bear in Alberta a week ago at the same distance through the shoulder and it blew right through the bear which was roughly 200-225lbs.

I really like flat based spitzers but if you really work on tuning your load, you shouldn't have an accuracy issue with boat tails.

Look at how many hunters use Sierra MatchKings (HPBT) for hunting. Dan Lilja, for one.

Sorry to be longwinded but boat tails have their place on the hunting table, just as the FB spitzers.

I don't know where people get the idea that boattailed bullets are supposed to be more accurate. The presence of a boattail has no effect, good, or bad, on accuracy except as it lengthens a bullet. Lengthening can have an effect on accuracy if the bullet is marginally stabilized as a flatbase, in which case making it longer causes it to start to keyhole. And everytone knows that a bullet travelling sideways through the air ain't particularly accurate!!

In any given rifle, with any given bullet weight and powder charge, a boattail may be more accurate than a flatbase, or vice-versa! You won't know until you try both types!!

quote:

Originally posted by brass thief:
this is all very good, but why do most of the gun shops seem to stock so many boat tail bullets? i saw some bullets today that were the right weight, and the right point, but with boat tails? seems that boat tails are undeservedly popular.

Quite probably! Note how deadly and sexy a long boat-tailed bullet looks! I hate to say this, but we gun-nuts often get enchanted by such things as appearance!

quote:

Regardless, most every animal I've killed was with a Nosler ballistic tip and .... I've never had a penetration problem or a jacket problem

.

See, the Nosler Ballistic Tip has a solid piece of jacket material as the boattail section-the core is not swaged into that part of the jacket, so has no tapered sides to slip forward (like Sierras often do). In addition, at least some of those others you list are bonded-core bullets, or even solids, like the Barnes X's-there's no core at all to slip forward & separate....

Doc, comparing a conventional cup/core bullet w/ a bonded one is apples & oranges regardless of base design. Like I said, I recovered or seen recovered BT designs where the core has slipped. THis occures w/ flat bse too, but less often.

Somewhere it was written that there is an exiting (bullet from barrel) affect that causes inaccuracy and that boat tails exaserbate this affect more than a flat base. Further I recollect Berger bullets and bench rest shooting in the article. Can anyone shed any light on this fadding memory? It was not ,I'm sure, slanted at hunting inaccuracy. roger

I beleive the angles of the boat tail combined with non-concentric gas flow at the damaged crown make for a GREATER disturbance than do a flat base with the same damaged crown. That is of course if one wants to go the damaged crown route.

I have heard the flat base vs boat tail a million times it seems. however it seems to be neglected that the boat tail design was a long range theory. The 300yd line is nothing,....any pill can be accurate at that range, even a flat base for BR purposes. However, the BC increase of a boat tail plays a large role in group size at 500-1000yds mainly due to retained energy from fighting the environment less to get there. Now, ifin you don't shoot 500-1000yds, then skip the debate as either pill will work for your purposes as long as it is accurate. I have yet to see a winner at the 600-1000yd line with a flat base though. I think that may hold some wisdom.

Seems that the same general principle that allows a football to travel through the air equally well in either direction would apply to a boat tail bullet early in flight: in that, at the moment a bullet leaves the barrel, the expanding gassses are passing the bullet faster than the speed of the bullet, the boat tail presents less resistance and the gasses pass more smoothly over the tapered tail - less buffeting/turbulence effect, apparently one of several reasons for increased long range accuracy.

Having said that, since the difference in drop at 500yds (165g 30-06 @ 2800fps) is roughly 2", and the energy gain roughly 120ft. lbs. for the boat tail, I doubt either the animal or the hunter would know the difference.

As a beginner some 40 or so years ago I used the 170g Speer round nose, flat base in my .270 for heavy cover whitetail hunting 'cause I just knew that bullet would plow through brush 'straight and true'. And I went for the boat tails for other stuff 'cause they looked just plain sexy.

A few years later the round nose myth was erased, but the boat tails are still sexy, even if over a many thousands of rounds there may be somewhat more barrel erosion.

Although my logic in bullet selection was (and still may be) faulty, I never lost an animal, from whitetail to moose, with either.